I’m Jewish and have been told very angrily that I killed Jesus more than once. It’s fun.
It’s all fables.
Religion ruins everything.
I really do hate religion. Scourge against humanity.
You have people like this saying actual antisemitic shit over and over and over again and they are elected to office.
And then it’s people that want the country of Israel, to at least pretend to try to not kill scores of civilians and they get called antisemitic.
That is entirely Israel’s fault. I say that as a Jew.
My work often takes me to the Antwerp diamond quarter (especially the vault buildings) and the sentiment I see there is that your general Jewish person facepalms every time they hear Israel is in the news again and they aren’t happy this makes life more difficult for them by simple association. Most of these people just want to live their lives and have no association, fealty or favor for the country of Israel, beyond the area it resides in hosting holy sites.
Dunno about the traditionally dressed Hasidic Jews in Antwerp though, I’ve been in and around the Diamond Quarter for 25 years now and I don’t think I’ve ever even got as much as a hello or acknowledgement of existence from any of them walking down the street. They seem to be a rather insular bunch.
Ironically, a lot of Orthodox Jews are anti-Zionists for religious reasons. There are even Hasidic groups that do not recognize Israel as a nation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_and_Zionism#Groups_which_do_not_recognize_Israel
So they seem to be the good kind of insular. Live and Let Live.
Pretty much. That and they’re the sort of “I’m an evangelical Christian because my mother was and her mother was” types and don’t think much more about it than that.
It is perpetually disappointing the extent to which so many people who claim to be Christians fail to understand even the CliffsNotes version of the Gospel.
Jesus’ arrest was probably bound to happen sooner or later though. As noted Biblical scholar Andrew Zaltzman has often pointed out, Pontius Pilate was a law and order administrator, and Jesus was absolutely guilty under the law at the time.
Also, without Jesus’ arrest and crucifixion, he wouldn’t have died and been resurrected, saving everyone’s souls. So shouldn’t Marjorie be thanking Jews for that?
Tbh, Jesus probably didnt exist anyways.
They started writing about him almost 100 years after his supposed death, and AFAIK theres zero proof outside the bible that he existed.
The earliest set of Pauline epistles have a consensus dating around 50, 20 years after the nominal death of Jesus.
The gospel of Mark has consensus dating to 70, 40 years after the nominal death of Jesus.
Multiple Jewish and Roman historians wrote about the existence of Jesus, who weren’t all getting their information from the Bible. There is a long and well-sourced Wikipedia article on this.
This is patently false and easily disprovable with a cursory google. Please do not spread misinformation.
Prove it instead of casting doubt.
You’re the wrong party here, your search will prove it.
Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure, and the idea that Jesus was a mythical figure has been consistently rejected by the scholarly consensus as a fringe theory.
Scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the biblical accounts, with only two events being supported by nearly universal scholarly consensus: Jesus was baptized and Jesus was crucified
So…
- A preacher lived around that time.
- His name was ridiculously common.
- He was baptized.
- He was crucified.
Notably NOT:
- He was born of a Virgin.
- He was the son of a supernatural deity.
- He performed supernatural acts.
- He was resurrected.
To call this “Historical Jesus” is misleading at best. It is reasonable to say DOZENS of people fit that description.
Let’s try the same argument today… “A preacher named John was baptized and later was convicted of serious crimes and sentenced by a judge.” How many fit this description? Isn’t it more likely true than false? What does that prove?
This whole argument tries to equate mundane statistics with miracles. It adds nothing to any reasonable discussion outside of post-hoc theological justification.
What makes a better lie:
- A 100% fabrication
- A lie that selects elements from reality, and invents parts of the whole story
Muhammad was also a known historical figure, as was Joseph Smith.
I don’t think anyone here claimed historical Jesus was the son of the magical sky wizard.
Some folk heros are based on historical people; some aren’t.
The thing is that people are basing the magical sky wizards manifesting himself as his son as this “Jesus” character they’ve made up and have decided existed in the way they pretend because there is some tangential corroboration somewhere.
Check the talk page on that (and similar) articles. There are some very zealous editors making sure that they come down harder than the sources really support on the “everyone definitely agrees that he existed” side of the argument…
I asked for you to provide some kind of proof.
You provided a statement that scholars have faith.
I am being serious here, where is the contemporary record of Jesus existing?
I’m leaving this one to the experts. If you don’t believe the them that’s up to you to prove. I personal don’t believe either of us is more informed than they are.
I would argue that both of us ought to be smart enough to be able to look at the “proof” and recognize a lot of it is personal faith.
You believe what you want.
There isn’t any and even the discussions in the wiki on the historicity of jesus are full of arguments to authority.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#cite_note-Jesus_existed-4
It can be summed up as, “People who have made their livelihood around a potentially fictitious persons of history all claim that said person exists because reasons.”
this conversation is split into so many parts im just trying to chase down this one key point: it’s not enough to say “well I don’t believe them” - I want to be proved wrong here, for my own education. But I want to be proved wrong - with proof. Not just a throwaway comment of “they have not met my (undefined, and unexplained) threshold of proof”
What do you have to show that Jesus didnt exist as a real human? That isn’t your own belief or thought process as your primary source?
However, Tacitus does not reveal the source of his information. There are several hypotheses as to what sources he may have used.
buddy, if scholars past and present piled opprobrium on Voltaire for doubting it’s authenticity, what hope do you have?
Not only does this link and the other link youve been given provide many historical sources and discussions, but they also then lead to other sources.
The burden of proof lies with you invalidating hundreds of sources over thousands of years. Don’t act like I’m the one with a crackpot theory.
Let’s compare like for like - what link with a reasonable amount of scholastic cachet can you provide to back up your theory?
It’s not a crackpot theory it’s just one that doesn’t hold up to the smell test.
A man mentions tangentially three things and history decides that’s enough corroboration.
He wasn’t alive at the time, he doesn’t mention what his source is and he is writing about something else.
Buddy if we collected nickels from anthropologists every time they got something wrong we’d all be rich.
Tacitus mentions Christian’s and their namesake. He mentions Pontus.
He does not mention these things together as a cohesive event.
He is writing about something else.
…and Pontius Pilot was one historical figure we can prove exists. In letters from Rome telling him to stop genosiding so many Jews. We are supposed to believe that if this really happened, such a guy cared what the Jews thought, and would give them a choice on who to kill? Really? He would have killed Jesus, the other guy, and the crowd for good measure.
It’s clearly written to absolve Rome of any guilt since they founded the religion and all of the source material is more likely attributed to Mithra and Simon Magus.
Apparently, Christians are not the only ones who lack basic knowledge about the history of Jesus …
Neat theory
This. Why don’t these people understand that Jesus died for EVERYONE’S sins?
WE ALL KILLED JESUS. Accept Him and repent.I never killed anyone though. That’s just emotional manipulation.
What you don’t think you’re a sinner for… checks notes …being born?
I feel like the stigma of sin is vastly overplayed when it’s just an element of being human. Adultery and murder are the same as existing? Alrighty, almighty!
In a wider sense, just by shopping in the supermarket or owning a cellphone, you are participating in worldwide exploitation and mass murder.
Sounds like you’re not very good at being a zombie or a pirate then.
Oh, you’ve got the wrong idea.
I don’t eat brains, I prefer other intellectual properties.
I never asked him to do that and I don’t particularly want to go to an afterlife filled with sanctimonious Christians, so I’ll take the L, thanks.
Valhalla seems pretty chill, I’ll look forward to seeing you there… or maybe I’ll go chill with my pa in the sky people’s city. Honestly, I think I’d probably want to be an afterlife tourist… I wonder how early I need to book that.
I don’t want to go on forever. It sounds awful. Imagine every boring moment in your life and multiply it by infinity.
You gotta be mentally ill to believe this shit.
Seriously. This guy is probably a dirty Trumpster, too.
Na
If Jesus died for our sins then we’re letting him die in vain by not sinning.
sin for Jesus friend.
I’m going to spill my seed for Christ.
You all can have your little LARP and potluck, but kindly leave the rest of us the fuck out of it. I get that the world sucks and thinking someone will give you cookies for taking all the shit rich folks pile on you day after day is appealing, but it’s just excusing your own exploitation. I’m not about that life.
Make me, pussy.
Speak for yourself.
To MTG: you’re white and white people owned slaves, so you’re directly responsible for slavery.
I’d believe it for MTG. She certainly seems the type to want to return to “the old ways”.
The Romans get a pass for some reason.
Realistically, nobody was going to blame the dominant culture that ended up spreading the plague, I mean, Christianity.
Well Pilate DID literally wash his hands of the whole thing. Plus blaming the Romans undermines the whole “If he did nothing wrong why didn’t he comply with law enforcement?” narrative.
The amount of dumb in that assertion.
It hurts my head.
Jesus was a Jew named Joshua who was against money lending in the temple.
That’s the historically accurate Jesus though, and not the M16 wielding anti-Semite white Jesus, who’s look seems to say “WTF IS A KILOMETER!!!” as eagles swoop on high.
You know, fake Jesus.
I’m just so exhausted.
It is exhausting, but at least it gives me an opportunity to laugh at this crazy lady, as long as I don’t spend too much time thinking about all the other people who agree with her.
Is she thanking them? Jesus had to die for Christianity to exist.
So wait. Given the Republicans just ‘trapped’ the Democrats into voting for the stupid ‘working definition of Antisemitism’ as a federal guideline, can we flip the table and trap them into a vote to censure/eject her from Congress?
I’d bet there’s a non-zero headcount among the Republicans who’d be happy to boot her, and if not there’s a lot of headlines to run about the “GOP defends virulent anti-Semite in own party”
Everything about Jesus is a fable so why call out this part specifically as fable?
Fableception?
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We seriously need to ban religion from politics, policy making, and any matters that have to do with making rules for society. Religion should just be a personal matter, and never mentioned in public by people who need it.
On behalf of those of us who found Jesus to be a lackluster prophet, thank you. /s
My pleasure. You’re also welcome for all those Hollywood movies I’m apparently responsible for.
S P A C E
L A S E R S
A Gallilean philosopher and ex-slave was teaching a class on Paul, known Christian.
“Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Jesus Christ and accept that he is the greatest deity ever, even greater than Jupiter Optimus Maximus!”
At this moment, a brave, patriotic, Centurion who had served 30 years duty and worshiped the Emperors every day stood up.
“Who is the son of god?”
The arrogant philosopher smirked and smugly replied “Jesus Christ, you stupid pagan”
“Wrong. It’s Augustus Caesar. If it was Jesus Christ, as you say… then why did he die pathetically on the cross instead of creating an IMPERIVM SINE FINE?”
The philosopher was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of the Gospel of Luke. He stormed out of the room crying those crocodile tears. The same tears Christians cry for the conquered Gauls and Britons (who today live in such luxury that most even visit baths every week) when they jealously try to claw justly earned riches from the deserving legionaries. There is no doubt that at this point the “learned” Christian wished he had joined the auxilia and become more than a cultist preacher of barbarian superstitions. He wished so much that he had a gladius to disembowel himself with due to the shame, but he had none for he himself had always preached unconditional pacifism!
The students applauded and all joined the legions that day and accepted the Emperor as their lord and savior. An eagle flew into the room and perched atop the SPQR symbol and shed a tear on the chalk. The 12 tables were read several times, and the Emperor himself showed up and sentenced all Christians to die in the Flavian Amphitheatre.
The philosopher lost his tenure and was sent to the lions the next day. He died with a thunderous applause and was tossed into Tartarus for all eternity.
Ave, true to Caesar
[copypasta not mine]
Which brings up a question I’ve yet to have a Christian answer properly for me- Why did Jesus live and die in a backwater rather than bring his world-saving gospel to Rome?
I mean even ignoring the fact that Jesus never got around to telling the indigenous people in places like Australia that he existed and humans had to do it, going to Rome seems like it would have been the best place to spread the message at the time.
While atheist myself, there’s a fairly obvious reply.
God had a plan, and look where the religion is now, so that plan obviously worked.
I learned long ago that there is no point in a response to such Christians because they want you to respond.
And I should add that there are plenty of Christians who are absolutely not like this. Even evangelicals. My wife’s evangelical family has never been anything but completely welcoming of me. No one has so much as tried to convert me, let alone said anything antisemitic.
Not according to the book of Mormon.
I don’t think the Book of Mormon says that Jesus went to Australia, just the Americas.
Oh really? Well, I’m sure they’ll get around to baptizing them all posthumously if they haven’t already.
Probably. After all, they baptized Ann Frank.
Nice. I’ve never heard any of the music from Jesus Christ Superstar. I like it. I’ll have to listen to the rest now.
It’s unironically one of my favorite musicals. It’s surprisingly not very religious, considering its subject matter.
It certainly sounds critical based on that song. Randy Newman did a version of Faust which was similarly critical of God. I quite liked it.
It walks a very fine line that appeals to both Christians and non-Christians. It’s more about the drama and struggle around Jesus, without ever directly addressing his divinity or lack thereof. Judas has all the banger songs, though. He’s the protagonist, really.
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They provided a dramatic climax at the crucifixion.
Doesn’t the antisemitism awareness act make criticism of Israel illegal? Maybe her reason for opposing it is stupid but it should be opposed.
Yes, the act itself is bad. This isn’t really about the act.
Doesn’t the antisemitism awareness act make criticism of Israel illegal?
No, it’s pretty toothless as a bill. It is concerning, but for the ambiguous attitudes it reflects more than the legal effects it’ll have.
Part of me wants to make a joke about it being the Italians, but no, this is serious antisemitism and it cannot be taken lying down or joking.
Those of us who are not Jewish need to be preparing to fight the antisemites in whatever ways we must to ensure the safety and security of our neighbors.
