So basically American cars are 2x overpriced rn
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And lots and lots of government subsidies.
Yea, it’s the subsidies. The government of China funds questionably profitable companies such that they can sell their products at what would be a loss by any other company, undermining the values of competition in Europe/States.
What does China get out of it? Chinese products distributed globally running Chinese software and sensors which are beholden to the whims of the Chinese Government. They also get to weaken the economies of the target countries.
The United States does similar things with intelligence, but citizens of that country can at least condemn, research, and publish findings against it’s own government. What can a Chinese citizen do? Very little except obey.
The United States is also massively flawed when it comes to competition but at least there are theoretical methods for the citizens of that country to change things. If they can destroy the corporate plutocracy currently strangling democracy.
Communist country figures out how to exploit capitalism better than capitalist country, how poetic.
China isn’t a communist country, it’s a totalitarian country.
Characterized by a government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control. Totalitarianism is a political system and a form of government that prohibits opposition political parties, disregards and outlaws the political claims of individual and group opposition to the state, and controls the public sphere and the private sphere of society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
Communism is defined as:
political and economic doctrine that aims to replace private property and a profit-based economy with public ownership and communal control of at least the major means of production (e.g., mines, mills, and factories) and the natural resources of a society.
It calls itself communist just like a big chunk of the world calls itself capitalist but doesn’t let the market regulate itself
North Korea calls itself the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Do you also refer to North Korea as a Democratic country?
Being an open country has upsides and downsides certainly. The same could be said for Russia/China’s information war exploiting freedom of speech on those not educated in critical thought.
As if the US doesn’t also subsidize and funnel money into specific companies/industries for questionable reasons.
Did you read their whole comment? They addressed that and pointed it out several times themselves.
All they said is that you are allowed to call it out. Whoopdeedoo. Still happens.
Every car manufacturer receives massive subsidies no matter where they are located.
This is oil money, nothing more, nothing less.
You might want to look at some of the loosening child labor laws here in the US. Hyundai’s plants have been caught several times using child labor.
I’m not defending China’s practices by any means because many are truly horrific but the US is pretty far from perfect in many states.
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Yeah, at least the US uses only their own prisoners as slave labor.
What-aboutism is amazing, isn’t it? There’s a response for everything.
A direct comparison in a direct comparison conversation is not a whataboutism.
Child labour? Care to back up that claim?
Do provide a source that shows Chinese cars are made with child labour.
What child labor? There are no kids in China, they have some of the lowest fertility in the world and the most intense school hours for the rest
You’re like 40 years out of date
I’m not working in the conditions the Chinese have decided is ok. They can be poor and live in barracks at factories, I like free time and money.
So youre saying American cars dont import any parts? They dont preassemble overseas? Everything is 100% made by american Union labor?
Big 3 copium as usual.
Eventually they’ll do what Japense OEMs did and open factories in the USA.
I mean, that’s precisely the ideal case and goal of many tariffs.
Only I think they’re already opening factories in Mexico. Which again isn’t a terrible situation either.
Mexico
They aren’t sweeping Chinese cars under the road here as much as they are sweeping an actually affordable, practical EV option that could easily win the mass market and shift the status quo away from ICE engine vehicles at scale.
Bigger problem is, that while blocking the Chinese options, they won’t give us a similar option at that same affordable cost.
How about American companies just learn to compete? The same bullshit is why we can’t get a fucking normal sized truck in this country.
How about American workers learn to work for the same wages and working conditions.
If you want companies to pay a living wage with strong unions and safe working conditions, then competition with other places that don’t bother with those things becomes near impossible.
See: The factories that iPhone is built in
No. We can still pay workers much better and make much more lower priced affordable models.
Stop giving the CEOs, upper management, investors, etc., millions and millions of dollars. I don’t care what anyone says.
We can have the sub 10k priced EV, or even less, like China has. They can still make money on luxury/performance “status” models.
This is all about keeping extreme wealth for the extreme wealthy. Wall Street, etc. Full stop.
We can have very well payed workers and much cheaper yet still quality vehicles.
Agreed. This is something that is very much overlooked when people talk about how manufacturing in China works. The country is split into special economic zones that have different rules and laws that govern the regions. This allows them to uniquely exploit their labor markets to keep their costs as low as possible.
iPhones are built by FoxConn in their Shenzhen factories. See FoxConn Suicides for more.
EV manufacture is mostly automated… This argument makes no sense. 8 people to build an ICE. you only need one for an EV.
Are these tariffs based off how they treat their workers? Do countries with good working conditions not have tariffs?
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China’s neighbor’s brains: CHINA BAD
Read as: The only way they can compete with Chinese vehicles is 100% tariff
Well yeah. The companies are state subsidized and a good bit of the tech is stolen from electric car companies in other countries that actually have to pay for R&D.
So Musk doesn’t get any tax incentives and write offs?
Not at the same level, no. And we frankly shouldn’t be doing that either.
Plus the US government trying to stage a coup in Bolivia to secure cheap lithium supplies: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/nov/25/we-will-coup-whoever-we-want-the-unbearable-hubris-of-musk-and-the-billionaire-tech-bros
that is the same myth that big pharma explains why Americans pay so much more for medicine.
https://newrepublic.com/article/153864/innovation-drug-price-myth
US automakers have expressed that they are fine economically making expensive cars for rich people. of course that is after 80 years of lobbying to under cut public transit and trains.
True, but far less than American manufacturers.
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Great news after Tesla cancelled it’s plans for an entry model. Green for me not for thee.
There are some other American brands that have decent EV options now. Hopefully that continues to grow
GM who put out a faulty platform across several brands and gave data to insurers so premiums shot up? Or Ford who can’t build an EV below 50k and are allergic to building something that’s not the size of an armored military vehicle?
Blatantly anti-competitive practices. We don’t have a free market in the US. Shit is expensive so the wealthy can continue to profit at record levels while citizens pay the price. Why try to compete when you can protect the wealthy and make your country suffer?
The CCP can artificially depress the value of their currency and subsidize their industries indefinitely. They are doing this on the backs of their workers, who should earn more for their labor. They are doing this because their own workers are too poor to provide sufficient domestic demand for their consumer goods, however, this strategy just makes their workers poorer, exacerbating the problem. Chinese exports should be used to make their economy self-sustaining, but they just perpetuate economic bubbles and malinvestment that cause economic stagnation. Neither domestic nor international commerce has never been free of interference or fair.
and subsidize their industries indefinitely
People keep saying this that are fully aware the US subsidizes its industries too. Yeah? They subsidize their electric vehicles? Fuckin good!
I don’t think whataboutism ever helps anything. American subsidies and bailouts has not resulted in better consumer choice. However, choosing options that are due to dumping isn’t going to produce sustainable industry either in China after the subsidies there end. The only real solution is to actually make practical electric vehicles at an affordable price.
Its resulted in lower prices for the industries subsidized.
I have no idea what you mean by dumping and unsustainable. Why would the subsidies end?
The only real solution is to actually make practical electric vehicles at an affordable price.
Do you realize youre arguing against a method to achieve more affordable prices?
I think he is stating that by subsidizing Chinese vehicles way below what could be practical to sell subsided non-Chinese vehicles at China can effectively kill off the non-Chinese automotive manufacturing capacity over enough time. Once this has been achieved China can increase prices drastically as Americans would no longer have domestic car options to buy, and creating a monopoly.
The US has way more money available to compete with those subsidies.
Yes but the alternative is not having to spend tons of money to subsidize private industry and not letting China profit off of American auto sales.
Just like how people can no longer afford low end manufactured goods because China massively increased the prices once they took over that market, right?
The military and government contacts alone will keep the big 3 in business. They’re in no danger of a mom and pop Walmart situation.
So, the Amazon & Walmart strategy?
That’s true and all but this decision is solely about oil barons and their fat fucking profits.
Its no coincidence that they are going after electric cars and solar panels. Chinese workers have had it rough for 30 years but green tech is where we draw the line and not literally everything else, who believes this?
Its not to protect the economy, it’s not to protect the Chinese workers.
This is only about oil profits.
It’s not the 80s any more. China has the largest middle class in the world, bigger than the population of most countries. 40% of the vehicles in service there are already electric. In the cities I visited it’s closer to 80%. Chinese shopping malls are filled with name brand western products and always busy. You’re either ignorant of the modern reality of China, or just a liar.
China doesn’t have the worker protections that the US has, the same level of gov’t support, nor the environmental rules that the US has. It’s only anti-competitive if there is a level playing field.
And the government just realized this now and are going to make it clear it isn’t okay by fucking up any export out of China that has the word green in it.
Nothing to do with oil money folks, just China got caught red handed and we just weren’t looking before. Yes, you can still keep your iPhone but fuck your solar panels and any car that doesn’t crave gasoline.
China doesn’t have the worker protections that the US has
Yeah weve got protections, like minimum off time for sleep…wait no. Maternity leave? Nah. Well our child workers get protected meal breaks at least. But not the adults. Water breaks or temperature limits? Still no. US doesnt have damn worker protections.
You got 3 downvotes and no replies, so I’m replying to let you know you’re speaking the truth. People are butthurt that the US isn’t as good as it could be.
Naw, it’s just both sides whatism bullshit. If anyone thinks as bad as things are in the US (and they are shitty), that workers are treated better in China, well they are higher than I am and don’t deserve a response.
Its a combination of being unaware of how bad things are in the US, and having nothing but stereotypes to inform how you think Chinese labor is. Guess who has mandated maternity leave and who doesnt. Or paid sick leave. Or laws tying minimum wage to cost of living.
Unpaid wages are a chronic problem in China. Migrant workers are rarely given formal employment contracts. China’s state-run labour unions (independent ones are banned) often side with management in disputes. So companies are under little pressure to pay workers in a timely manner. Sometimes, when business is bad, they refuse to pay them at all. Tensions typically come to a head in the period before the Spring Festival, when migrant workers scramble to get months of back pay before going home. source
Now talk about environmental issues and state market manipulation.
Shitty migrant worker treatment, which country are you talking about again?
Where the fuck did anyone say workers are treated better in China? Do you enjoy making shit up?
Where the fuck did anyone say the US had fantastic worker protections? Do you enjoy making shit up?
My wife lives and works in China. She can afford to rent a place in a city on minimum wage with no issues, healthcare, even emergency healthcare is cheap and without lines, she has more sick time benefits than I do, workers democracy literally just got mandated for all private and public companies. Tell me how much better I have it making $60k a year and being unable to afford to rent an apartment or go to the doctor even with insurance?
China literally has 40 hour workweeks, triple overtime, mandated workers democracy, mandated sick leave, mandated vacation time… this isn’t the 80s man. In a lot of ways they’re ahead of my country as far as labor protections go. My wife works at IKEA and gets better sick leave time than I do at a multi billion dollar company in the west.
Because China would be wise to subsidize their auto industry to sell at a loss just long enough to kill the American & European auto industry forcing us to buy Chinese vehicles.
this is the japanese scare all over again
Free market for thee, but not for mee.
I don’t actually mind the US protecting their economy from a predatory one that is more powerful - but I’d like USians to remember this when their politicians argue for war against 3rd world countries that want to protect their economies from the US.
Jesus Christ he’s actually trying to lose this election.
I remember when trump was called out on his dumb little trade war (and rightfully so), but now that biden took the same trade war and escalated it, somehow it’s all good. Then these hypocrites wonder why people think both parties are the same.
Saying both parties are the same is an early sign of dementia.
It’s always fascinating to watch liberals attempting to distance themselves from their more overtly fascist cousins… yeah - totally nothing suspicious going on there.
No, you’re just scared to face the reality that you actually have no power in this country, and the both sides are in fact the same. One just says the N word.
Anyone who thinks both sides are the same is head caved in stupid, not paying attention, or willfully lying.
I would vote for a presidency that is for free trade. Allow these companies to mature in the market. Though in this case the technology in US cars is extremely behind. I mean were only just getting LFP in cars, and while 800v that allows for super fast charging is markedly common over there, it is in only a few models here. I’m not getting why we’re putting these companies under tariff, legacy doesn’t have an EV industry with the capacity to scale affordable EV. A lack of innovation is also something to mention. It really shouldn’t be considered a good thing when a 10 year old EV like the Bolt is a best seller. I wish the US legacy auto EV industry would either build a very basic aerodynamic economy EV with no tech nonsense for under 25k with 250 miles minimum or just leave it to Tesla and Chinese OEM. I mean all of them have abandoned the sedan and economy car market… Why not let the Chinese have that market share if they can’t build something comparable just put tariffs on Chinese SUV and trucks which is a segment that legacy auto can’t stop building.
Ah yes… Scotch tariffs really helped save our domestic Scotch market.
Anti climate move
Fucking cowards
Still worth it.
Hopefully someone can tell me why this wont work, but what if they Chinese mfg did a Tesla and sold cars online and then shipped them over as “Sold” vehicles. I would do something like this out of spite, but if there are thousands of orders the cost of shipping can greatly be reduced over one or two “special orders” from China.
There are so many ways american regulatory committees could call foul on this that it just isn’t worth it.
It just wouldn’t be worth trouble and risk of delaying further the export of Chinese EVS.
New Chinese electric vehicles exceeding international safety standards are already less than half as expensive as new American electric vehicles anyway, so even with a 100% tariff on top and whatever other taxes and fees, they’ll still be cheaper than new American EVS.
Probably hit the owner with duty anyways
You have to pay customs anyways. Uncle Sam will get their pound.
Ah, the free* market at work
International companies are not entitled to a country’s free market
