Wouldn’t they benefit from more people? Of course it would come with the condition of learning the language at an acceptable level and that being tied to residency.
The birth rates are low because of the terrible environment that doesn’t support having and raising children. All you’re doing is importing more people who will also barely have any children within a generation or so. Mass immigration is just throwing bodies at the bottom of the pyramid scheme. You can see this in action in Canada where housing is absolutely unaffordable, but large numbers of immigrants are brought in who have to work for shitty wages and live with multiple families in a single rental unit.
The screaming about low birth rate is because corporations want to keep a high labor pool so they can drive down the price of labor while keeping up demand for consumption.
The screaming about low birth rate is because corporations want to keep a high labor pool so they can drive down the price of labor while keeping up demand for consumption.
It’s not only that. By the time you want to retire, there won’t be enough people to pay taxes for your retirement fund. With more young people than old, that is less of a problem.
This is one area where we’re supposed to benefit from the greatly increased automation. We don’t need a huge mass of people doing make-work. The current situation is that we force people to do make-work to continue making on-paper profits which mostly go to a tiny set of wealthy people. The current situation is unsustainable even if population growth increased because it’s a pyramid scheme. The system relies on infinite growth.
Poor countries, such as the countries people are immigrating from, have a more terrible environment and higher birth-rates.
The problem is that birthdate is dropping even faster in those countries. An even bigger “problem” is that in general life is getting better, even in developing countries. There is no infinite supply of immigrants waiting to save the developed world.
Encouraging immigration is far from a panacea. It will work for a few countries, for another generation or so, but you can see the end of that coming
But isn’t it better to have a few years but then growth vs absolute death spiral due to low population which we would have to increase immigration for regardless
The problem is that most of the growth goes to the already rich as they pay immigrants poorly and make them pay high rents (hence the need to have multiple families living in a single unit). It’s still a death spiral, just with higher profits for the rich few. The only way to make it not a death spiral is to force the rich leeches to stop sucking the blood out of everyone else.
A lot of Europe did so and for this exact purpose. Immigrants are net contributors of tax money and help a lot with demographics. Now however European countries have a sizable portion of their countries as immigrants and it turns out a lot of people feel like their culture is getting lost.
Add that up with corruption is more out in the open, austerity after the 2008 financial crisis generally failed as a policy and people are very prone to believe “Immigrants are to blame” and vote for right wing parties since they run on an anti-establishment platform.
The left generally believes that we need more immigrants and more social programs and so on but there has been a massive crusade on tax rates which hinders the governments ability to pay for them.
This is all coming together now and the far right narrative is being given a chance in Europe with their anti-immigration stance.
In my opinion this is basically the centre-right trying to get votes by cutting taxes, end up taking on massive debt or gutting quality of life social programs so the only way forward is to fuck over minorities and making the most vulnerable people suffer for the greater good. But tax the well-off, rich, wealth, land, capital gains, profits? Nooooo, can’t do that because they fund the political parties. 🙃
Add Canada to that list. 1 million immigrants a year and everything is collapsing - our housing, healthcare, education, nothing can keep up.
Odd I was in B.C. about a month ago. Seemed like civilization was still operating there.
proof you weren’t: BC has had a huge homeless problem for decades that is only getting worse.
I’d argue that homeless are a symptom and lack of housing is the problem.
yes and no.
homeless are a symptom of many things. healthcare. lack of rentals. lack of employment. lack of social services.
but what is known is that there has been a huge increase in the rate of population growth in Canada in the last several years, along with a decrease in natural population increases (lowering birth rate) and a massive increase in immigration. While housing is an issue, there were never enough spare beds for the increase, and never could be, in the time frame they were required.
So, to put it another way: no.
but mostly: afraid of zombies is full of shit.
Unless you live there, your visit to BC likely did not involve needing to use any of those systems or services. You saw the country through tourist eyes.
Clearly. They must have hid the Mad Max dystopia from me. Excellent job. I am walking around Victoria thinking it’s a cute mini-Seattle and really they started BBQing humans babies for food when I turned around.
I talked to Japanese colleagues about this a lot. The issue isn’t just plain old xenophobia. In a lot of cultures, when someone gets married, there are considerations about marrying ‘the right kind’ for the family. As silly as that might sound to U.S. ‘melting pot’ ears, these could be tribal, economic, linguistic, geographic, class, education, age, gender, and yes, race.
In traditional settings, the elders have to bless that marriage, welcome the person, and ideally have the families mesh together and be on the same page.
Inviting foreigners with vastly different backgrounds on almost all those axes, it’s a pretty tall order to ask everyone to change those attitudes. And saying one family should close their eyes and do it for the sake of the country while their neighbors hold out for a ‘suitable’ match is going to be tough. The demographic ‘time bomb’ has been a known issue since the 80s and people are still resistant to change.
At some point, though, realities catch up.
My bet would be it would take a generational turnover and a few years of popular sitcoms normalizing it.
So, indirect xenophobia. That’s much better.
Call it cultural inertia if you prefer.
Xenophobia propped up by political groups. Many official immigration programs existed in the 19th century that, when allowed to, had immigrants integrated into society.
Wouldn’t they benefit from more people?
The wealthy win when there’s more workers than work.
Historically the greatest gains in workers rights and the times we make the most gains against wealth inequality is when there isn’t a surplus of workers.
Xenophobia and racism, mostly. And yes, it’s a solution to the aging demographic crisis many countries face (at least in the medium-term).
I remember seeing a video of a presentation back in the Bush years by some neo-con group that advocated for immigration to Pentagon or DoD officials or something. The argument for immigration was mostly the same: we have an aging population, so we could integrate immigrants (who are statistically younger) to solve this issue. I didn’t agree much with the broader idea of the presentation though. The broader idea was that there were still some parts of the world not a part of the global U.S.-led hegemony (mostly the middle-east and Africa), and we must spread democracy and capitalism to them. The argument was that globalism/capitalism ensures peace, and that both WWI and WWII happened because globalism was falling apart shortly before those wars. So, to ensure world peace, we need to globalize the entire earth and bring all countries into the the U.S.-led hegemony, even if that means starting wars to spread democracy, lol.
Good write up! My version was much snarkier.
But other factors include
- not every country can encourage significant immigration
- even developing countries have a rapidly dropping birth rate
Some countries, maybe like Japan and South Korea, have low birth rates and a history of discouraging immigration. I’d argue it’s too late for them: you can’t suddenly develop and support a large wave of immigration, especially when most developing populations are doing better, most are seeing lower birth rates. They have a lot of work to do and little chance of succeeding
Other countries, notably China, have a rapidly declining birth and already see the impact, so are just going to discourage emigration. The supply of immigrants will quickly dry up (except refugees)
So for example, the US has a history of significant immigration. We’re already in the scenario of insufficient birth rate to sustain our population but sufficient immigration to keep growing. Maybe I don’t know enough about other countries or I’m falling to some sort of exceptionalism, but to me this boils down to why doesn’t US encourage immigration. We have the easy case: if we can’t figure it out, how can we expect anyone else to.
It’s bigotry. Whether it be racism, or classism, or political, or religious, or whatever. People have endless reasons for wanting to consider others as outsiders or lesser or different.
Because most low birth-rate countries are first-world countries, and they generally want to only accept people who can contribute to their society and not be freeloaders to the social system. This means they need to filter out the people that come in, and being first-world countries, there is no shortage of people trying to get in. Sometimes they want low-skill, not-highly educated people just for the cheap labor, but not the person actually staying permanently, hence temporary worker visas. If a foreigner really wants to stay permanently, they then need to ensure that you are educated, able to support yourself long term, do background security checks, and make sure you agree to integrate as you mentioned in the OP.
Ah, your post history tells me you’re in texas, that explains your post. I understand your concern about immigrants coming into a country without proper verification, swarming across the land and replacing the actual native population. Such populations usually move in and immediately assume the land is theirs, and do their best to forget the legacy of the original native people. We can only hope that arrogance and bigotry becomes less common over time.
You understand wrong. I am an immigrant myself and literally experienced what I said. I merely recounted my own experience and the hoops I had to go through to be admitted into the country and be allowed to stay permanently. I have first hand experience of what the USCIS requires and checks in order to be granted work visas and the entire lengthy and expensive process to get permanent residency if you’re coming from a third world country. You are literally asked in application forms if you’ve ever applied for government benefits and how much debt you currently have, because that raises flags for them. You also have to prove your skills by showing evidence of the work you’ve done and what special skills or knowledge you have that a local can’t otherwise do. I’ve been denied a visa once just because the consular officer wasn’t convinced that my skills were special enough. It was a long drawn out process just to get admitted in. Oh and you also need to undergo a medical exam because they want to make sure you don’t have any serious issues that can potentially make you a burden to the healthcare system.
So before accusing someone of arrogance and bigotry, make sure you actually know where the person is coming from. I am not against immigration at all. I am merely explaining how the government picks and chooses who to admit into the country through their standard immigration processes. Show me a first world country that doesn’t have those requirements (except for asylum seekers). I’ll wait.
Lot of assumptions in your comment about someone you have not met.
This is a gigantic can of worms that will cause arguments.
Why don’t fat people hit the gym and eat salad?
Because salad is boring and fat-shaming is the last kind of bullying still considered acceptable.
I was out on my bike the other day and someone yelled “YOU FAT BASTARD”. Fortunately I’m pretty thick skinned and have lined up a few choice remarks for next time.
Imagine if fat had been replaced with black, or Chinese, or gay, etc. They’d be in jail for committing a hate crime quicker than I could get to the nearest Greggs.
They’d be in jail for committing a hate crime quicker than I could get to the nearest Greggs.
No they wouldn’t. Shouting slurs is shitty but not a punishable offence. Touch grass and hit the gym you fatso.
Oh feck off. Most gyms are mostly predatory money grab schemes.
Better to reduce your sugar intake and focus on physical activity with practical effects. Clean your house, do some gardening, volunteer in the community, play some sport you actually like. Gyms are for losers!
I can visualize the person who wrote this and I don’t like what I see.
Found one! https://youtu.be/3UC96g1A4Nc?si=flhQFO6kuB9wUj7T
Stop wasting time at the gym! Go build a house for the homeless instead!
But being fat is not the same as being black. People do not get sick and die 30 years earlier because they are black, for instance. People are black not because they ignore physical exercises and eat too much. I don’t support bullying, but acting like this is a normal condition that we should cherish is wrong.
People do die 30 years earlier because they’re black - thats often how racism works…
Imo how do we know what “normal” is and has that been the case for the last 1000 years? The Japanese have employed sumo wrestlers to serve in a sport, for instance. I think its fair to say fat shaming is a more modern phenomena that’s occurred more recently as high calorie low nutrition food became mass produced and microplastics have accumulated in all our bodies.
Did you equate health issues caused by lack of physical activity and excessive eating to racism? I can’t even… Okay, if you want to ignore all the medical and scientific evidence, ignore them. It is your body and you are the one to face the consequences.
Did you equate
No, I was correcting YOUR comparison. I think shaming racists is quite good, while shaming fat people is misguided.
ignore all the medical and scientific evidence
The point here is that our value judgements about health aren’t medical or scientific. Risky behavior isn’t universally frowned upon by society. Often its encouraged.
In the US, for instance, automobile accidents are a lead cause of death for people under 35, yet we don’t treat driving with the same disdain as smoking or obesity. As far as “lack of physical activity” goes, car accidents represent a major source of injuries, which do make people less able to keep up healthy lifestyles. Yet again, little disdain.
Smoking is a great comparison here, because if you want to take the medical literature seriously you can’t just handle it from the consumer end, you also have to deal with industries that employ swaths of food scientists to make bad food addictive and cheap.
All in all, I do think we could benefit from thinking about why we shame people for things and ask ourselves if we’re applying these judgements in a consistent way.
I’m pretty thick skinned
The generally acceptable response is “I’m just big boned”
Similar to high turnover rate at major corporations is the justified fear that the current residents will be abandoned by their own government in an attempt to drive economic incentives
Unless the system is built correctly, you could accidentally drive people away because you didn’t build with your citizens best interests in consideration
For example Japan and South Korean (my heritage) has this exact problem still at large as they encourage people to have children yet systems like high working hours in combination with low wages means that people just can’t afford to have children
Their bigots will throw a tantrum
Xenophobia
Oh boy, you need so much stellaris /s
Just add a “… Are they stupid?” To the end of the title, and repost in a shit posting community
