I think lgbt+ or lgbtq+ is fine. Things got weird at lgbtqia+ then at lgbtqia2s+, it got too long for me. This is the sort of thing that makes even centrists cringe at and republicans make alphabet jokes at.
I agree. At a certain point attempting to be too specific is counterproductive, even if the intent is positive.
Most people I know covered under these labels, including many people very close to me, also think it got silly. The + is there for a reason. Heck, so is the Q.
Yeah I thought the q is a +. Didn’t understand the need for another + but whatevers.
I don’t see the extra long ones outside of small communities and whenever some right wing talking head wants to complain about “clown world” shit for clickbait. No one cares as long as you treat people with dignity.
i never understand why people try to add inclusivity to things that are inclusive.
the pride flag is the rainbow. you know, the thing that’s associated with representing the entire spectrum. adding triangles and circles and extra colors is redundant. you can just say it represents all these things too because it’s the fucking rainbow.
same with lgbtq+. like, q already represents all of it kind of, but ok we also have a + to mean everything else. what’s the point of adding more…
i know it feels like the letters are more important than what’s bundled into the + sign but the answer to that isn’t adding a new letter for every single person, it’s to find a better, more inclusive shorthand that means all of it. as a cishet obviously I’m not going to declare anything unilaterally but personally i think something like GSNC (gender and sexuality non-conforming) would be inclusive of all of it and wouldn’t need expansion.
We had our Amsterdam Pride event earlier this month. Flags were a big issue of contention within the community. Not just whether or not flags like Israel or Palestinian would be welcome, but also regarding the rainbow flag itself.
There’s two schools of thought: the people who see the original rainbow flag as inclusive enough, and the people who want a flag that they feel represents their niche specifically. That one being the ‘Progress’ flag that you’re referring to.
The argument is: by adding more and more of that ‘social awareness’ stuff to it, the overarching message of it gets lost. Basically, people want pride to be about pride and not have it hijacked by other social issues. Which of course leads to animosity with people who do want to protest for social issues.
Personally, I’m a big fan of vexillology and I feel the original flag is still the best, most representative and least devise symbol.
i wish the entire thing got a facelift by someone with at least basic knowledge and interest in graphic design and vexillology. pride flag is the best but it’s mostly because the bar is super low. the individual (gay, lesbian etc) flags are just eyesores imo. terrible color combos. and the progress flag is probably the most egregious.
again i understand people’s concerns with representation but i think we can redefine what is representative of what.
i am also supportive of intersectionality and see why the black and brown was added but i think we’re past the need for it: you can use the original flag to include all of it. it’s a difficult situation because people who are passionate about this will have learned the historical significance of these and might not be easily convinced to rethink how they see the older flags.
as I said I am an outsider, but as an ally and graphic designer i just can’t help but wish for a reimagined set of flags.
To be clear: I’m not in the community as such, but I fully support them and have a fair few gay friends. And guess what? I feel represented by the original flag too. Because it represents good values. From an interview with Gilbert Baker:
Each color of the rainbow flag stands for something. “Pink is for sex, red for life, orange for healing, yellow for sun,” Baker told ABC7 News. “Green for nature, turquoise for magic, blue for serenity and purple for the spirit. I like to think of those elements as in every person, everyone shares that.”
Nowhere does it mention things like race. Or even a particular sexuality! As a white, heterosexual dude, that flag represents me just fine. It also represents someone black, brown and by golly, those blue people from Avatar if we ever discover them.
I definitely agree that most pride flags aren’t very good. I understand peoples enthousiasm to have their own flag, but some are just terrible.
You might be familiar with that old XKCD comic about competing standards. I imagine any attempt to make a new, better flag just results in one more getting added to the mix :D
If I was organising something, I’d just stick with the 1979 six color and call it a day. It’s iconic and it represents everyone, whether they like it or not.
it got too long for me. This is the sort of thing that makes even centrists cringe at and republicans make alphabet jokes at.
You don’t get to claim you’re uncomfortable with inclusion because of how others might react to it, especially since you’re reacting the same exact way as the centrist straw person you’ve created to shift the blame away from yourself and make yourself feel better, does.
YOU are uncomfortable, because YOU don’t want to take 3 extra seconds to be inclusive.
At least have the conviction to be honest with yourself, the rest of us can see right through you.
You don’t get to claim you’re uncomfortable with inclusion because of how others might react to it
- They didn’t
- Yes, one can do that. It’s like feeling uncomfortable about something a kid does because you know how the parents would react. You might not care what the kid does, but you know how it’d make the parents feel, and that causes the feeling of discomfort.
They quite literally did, and lets just be clear - are you comparing LGBTQIA2s+ people to misbehaving children, and bigots to their long suffering parents we need to feel bad for? Or is it the other way around, and that queer people are somehow responsible for the behaviour of bigots? I honestly don’t know which is worse.
Either way, what you are still saying is: lets not do inclusion, because it’ll make bigots uncomfortable.
OP is clearly more concerned with bigots’ feelings or reaction, than they are with being inclusive of marginalised people. You can do as many mental gymnastics as you like to try and convince them and yourself otherwise, but they, and you in your defence of their bad take, have made your priorities clear - make sure bigots are comfortable, then consider inclusion.
You are the bigots making a big fuss over the “alphabet soup” or whatever, not some imaginary “other” you want to project your shit take on to so you don’t have to admit to having it (sure, others exist, but you are no different to them).
At least have the conviction to be honest with yourself, the rest of us can see right through you.
They quite literally did
If they literally did that, could you quote it, please?
I also understand what you’re trying to do with the example I gave, but I’m not really going to entertain it. Just because I said two things can bring about similar emotions doesn’t mean I’m saying those two things have anything in common (aside from bringing about similar emotions).
I think one of the key points in fighting bigotry is to understand what it stems from. If we tell people that it’s not inclusive to say “LGBT”, what we’re doing is cutting off the people who are trying. Lumping together with bigots the people who are trying, but are simply unaware of all the extra letters they need to add to be “fully inclusive” is counterproductive imo.
Frankly, I just say “queer” when speaking aloud. I’m probably never going to be up-to-date on the entirety of what needs to follow LGBT, and I don’t need to be – I’m not part of that group, and I shouldn’t be expected to know the terminology, especially when it changes fairly rapidly.
At least in my case (because I can’t speak for anyone else), you are arguing against an ally who supports queer rights – it’s been a major consideration in every vote I’ve ever placed.
I even probably know what all of those letters stand for. But I’m not saying them or typing them out every time I want to refer to the broader group. It’s the same reason I’ll sometimes say “America” instead of “The United States of America”. Fewer syllables, and gets the idea across without offending anybody (the majority of the time).
You are a good, well-spoken person.
Haha, I try my best. Thank you.
Bro I’m bisexual but I just tell people I’m queer. It’s all encompassing and I’m lazy and it’s only one syllable.
Doing my part, I’ve been sucking D overtime 😔
Thank you for your sacrifice 🫡
You’re welcome. You’re also next, big boy.
All I got to offer is a pussy, so unless you are bi…
Not bi but I guess I’ll take the palette cleanser! Anything for my best folks
Polls are stupid. Did the people who took the poll last year change their mind or did they just get another random group of people who happened to be 4% different.
Also, as a gay man, I’d love to click on an article about LGBT issues and not see a drag queen. The only Queen I’m interested in plays rock music.
I agree! As a lifelong member of the community, being de facto represented by drag queens has been a cringeworthy experience. They’re character actors who do not represent even close to a majority of the larger group. The loudest, most obnoxious members of any group should not be allowed to hog the spotlight. It ruins the ability of the larger group to form political alliances. Gangster rap doesn’t represent black people. Jihadists don’t represent Muslims. Karens don’t represent white women.
Years ago my Bible-thumpy step mother was showing decent progress on accepting us when she was invited to a birthday party at a drag club. She went, trying to be hip, and a drag queen on stage came down and literally grabbed her hair and humped her face for the lolz, causing her whole project of acceptance to come crashing down. I guess the queen was roasting her verbally, painful enough I’m sure - probably she was dressed like Nancy Reagan, which is going to stand out - but then the queen physically accosted and humiliated her. She stopped giving a shit about our tribe after that. Can you blame her? Centering obnoxious outliers as representatives is bad strategy.
Well, I’ll stand up for drag queens now and say that single one was a terrible person. That’s truly a shame.
I’ve rarely met a drag queen I didn’t like as a person. But there is definitely some sass to the job.
This take is so damn toxic man, drag queens have been fighting for rights for people like us for a long time - the reason they’re so visible is because they’re on the front lines of this regressive culture war.
Be more inclusive, not less. Excluding people in our community because you think using their voice is them being “obnoxious” only fuels division. It doesn’t even sound like you were there to confirm your step-mother’s version of the drag story.
You’re part of the problem too.
Humping someone’s face isn’t speech.
It’s sexual assault.
Also, as a gay man, I’d love to click on an article about LGBT issues and not see a drag queen.
“I’d really love to stop seeing reminders of the people in my community who have a much bigger target on their back than I do, it makes me uncomfortable” 🙄
I think they’re complaining that none of the other groups in the queer umbrella get represented visually. Always representing one marginalised group is indeed bad if it’s always taking a place that could be representing a lot of different groups.
Also big assumption that they aren’t a bigger target than drag queens.
It’s kind of hard to support some people in the community when they compare the size of their gayness, and make the world — ironically — black and white.
🌈 It’s a rainbow in all shades, and even the drab colors need love.
I’d really like to see a mixture of various types in the community so I feel more welcome and people outside the community see that it is a diverse group of people.
The amount of hostility in here is nuts.
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