- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
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If your kids’ school laptops are surveilled, they’re surveilled by someone. Let’s call that someone Joe. Joe is a person who took a low-paying job that lets him surveil your kids. Joe likes his job, because he gets to surveil your kids. He gets to turn on the camera and look in your kids’ room. He gets to read the chat messages your kids send to their classmates.
Your kids would be better off without Joe in their lives. Joe is not a source of security. Joe is not protecting your kids; Joe is a threat to them.
We know that positions with power and access to children will attract pedophiles this is a well known, thoroughly confirmed fact.
And yet we got apologist justifying another government over reach.
I work IT in schools. There is limited surveillance tools on college owned devices. Mainly logging of web traffic. Screens can be viewed when on campus network, not reachable off campus.
No one in our department has time to waste looking at web history or screens. Teachers don’t bother to use it much either. We only look at it when directed by college executive or when I go in there at the end of term to clear the alerts.
I’d imagine most other schools are similar, no one gives a shit what kids are doing on their devices
no one gives a shit what kids are doing on their devices
Except Joe. And people like Joe. Whose surveillance of kids is now not only easier, but sanctioned.
Exactly. It’s like a tacit admission that the only reason to have this stuff is for people like Joe.
Trust me bro, joe is a good guy!
He’s super busy! No time to abuse our completely abuseable system…
my highschool has 1,500 kids and 2 IT guys. We have over 100 broken laptops rn. They’re overworked minimum wage workers like everyone else working at public schools. They don’t even look at what kids do. I’ve seen only 1 story in the 4 years I’ve been in HS where someone actually got in trouble for messing with stuff on the computer and it was because they were trying to brute force a network password they didn’t have access to.
kids looking at porn on their school laptops is why the tools exist, not for pedos. ‘Joe’ is 0.001% of people, not the majority!
That’s a number you just made up.
Either way, use a blacklist then. If you really care about what sites they access, use a whitelist.
use a blacklist then
They do.
That’s a number you just made up.
you’re purposefully ignoring my point
That’s what it looks like when it works well. There’s no way for parents to know if its a Joe situation or not.
It’s not like it hasn’t happened before. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/610k-settlement-in-school-webcam-spy-case/
So if no one gives a shit anyway you don’t need the surveillance capabilities anyway, right?
a private school needs to give the appearance that they do, or at least have this capability when someone asks. On the ground, its barely used
You’re pretty far off base here.
Just to clarify, the majority of active pedophiles are opportunistic, they go after those they have access to.
This is why every industry that has greater access to children, also has an greater number of pedophile scandals… It’s a problem, and yeah, giving someone direct access via a computer to a child’s digital life is a form of access that might be used opportunistically by such people.
I don’t think you understand just how locked down modern school laptops are. They don’t have access to Google snake, much less something like discord to chat with their friends. I semi-volenteer with my highschools library and I have to make tickets because some kids date/time was wrong and they didn’t have the ability to fix it. We don’t even have the ability to share PowerPoints anymore. The people that look on them are also the overworked IT guys that have to deal with these BS date/time tickets all day.
Teenagers are crafty and don’t have respect for the technology provided to them. I’ve seen (on multiple occasions) my peers beat the screen of the free laptop repeatedly if it’s too ‘slow’.
school-issued machines
Stopped reading right there. Whenever you are issued a device, you should immediately assume it’s being monitored by the owner of the device. This goes for school/job/etc. The owner of the device will always be monitoring it for reasons of making sure you are using the device for intended purpose to making sure you aren’t using it for illegal purposes.
I know that, you know that, many know that, but many don’t. Imo they should be required to inform you, preferably with a splash screen on boot or something similar that says “monitored by XXXXX” or something. Especially for things like schools where it’s more likely kids won’t know it (and will be more likely to become privacy advocates for life from knowingly having theirs violated.)
“this browser is being managed by your organization” exists
Something like that, yeah. They don’t all notify.
That’s fine.
But third parties should still be heavily limited on the information they can gather from just class work usage.
The first thing I did when I was issued a laptop for a job was check for monitoring software of any type. The second thing I did was become extremely suspicious when I couldn’t find any. I suppose the rule is “most likely” or “more often than not” while also being “always assume”.
I might have the exception to this. I’m able to dual boot my work laptop, as can the other engineers in my department. So it’s effectively a Linux machine under my exclusive administration. The only request from my IT department was how to format the host name.
I’m still not taking chances with that thing though, even when on my home network. The rules exist even if there’s a 99.99% chance they won’t be enforced. I have nothing to gain from doing nefarious shit on it just to prove a point, lol.
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OK so that’s nuts they installed a private ‘AI’ monitoring software that they have no oversight or control over. From the article, they can’t even see what it flags as inappropriate - it just flags and deletes.
A school admin should never hand over that much control!School contracting is corruption central.
The rights of children, especially privacy, has never been a priority for anybody except the children themselves.
Have you worked with kids? They’re nice, but they’re not autonomous people.
They were searching backpacks and lockers in my high school back in the 90’s, student privacy has been dead for a long time. And at the same time they let students keep rifles in their cars on school grounds during hunting season so those students could hunt before school. There’s no real logic at work, just school boards reacting.
Oh man. That’s work that office IT. At my office, the just log everything but unless you do something wrong, no one checks it.
Every student should be issued a webcam shade
At the junior high level last year, two potential suicides were flagged by search terms, a kid was caught dispensing fentanyl when a peer searched ‘how much fentanyl to take’, and an early stage threat was detected when was looking up bomb-making instructions.
That’s what I know about from my caseload.
Woah, what did the school use?
No idea. I just work there. Sometimes the computer goes ding and we call in people to haul off a kid. /s
Seriously though, from the teacher-side it is called Class Policy, but I don’t think that is the system that monitors and flags.
If a school provides a device to a student to take home there’s two possible outcomes.
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They provide a managed device, and with any management tool, there’s a way to invade privacy, intended or not.
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They provide an unmanaged device and get sued by parents for letting their"innocent snowflake" access unwanted content.
In both instances there’s something to legitimately complain about, but I still say the first option is the better one. The problem comes with oversight and auditing on the use of those management tools.
Not to mention that even with the second option of unmanaged devices, invasion of privacy can still occur if students are stupid enough to use the school provided accounts (Google, 365,etc)
What are we monitoring? How kids get dressed, if they pick their nose while using the computer?
Blocking sites does not require on device “monitoring”. Locking down a machine does not require monitoring. So why this invasive level of monitoring.
There’s other ways - write it into the conditions of loan that it’s not the school’s responsibility to monitor student use when at home.
There are solutions that allow monitoring only on campus - both the monitoring person and the student need to be on-site for the software to contact a licensing server. No server contact=no monitoring.
And never bring ‘AI’ into it.
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There’s Steven Black Hosts for blocking gambling, social media, fakenews and porn sites. Should be enough for a school, no?
Our system flags key words for staff intervention. This has provided earlier support for suicidal students and earlier intervention for developing threats.
This is every school surveillance software
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Parents don’t know or care much about their school domain’s IT sadly
Imagine permitting this to be done to your child 🤡
Most parents probably don’t even know it’s happening.
This headline reads like an onion article lmfao
…on students’ school-issued machines and accounts.
These are school issued machines, and like all machines issued by a 3rd party for use under their supervision, they come with monitoring software.
This isn’t some dystopian issue, and frankly, students should not be using school issued machines for private chats or photo storage, and should absolutely have their search history monitored while using said devices.
These aren’t necessarily the computers you and I grew up on where they had a dedicated computer lab room for use during class time. These are devices they take everywhere with them, even home. Now imagine some creepy school IT administrator decided to peek on the Webcams of kids while they’re on their room?
No need to imagine, it’s linked in the article: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/610k-settlement-in-school-webcam-spy-case/
God the school’s response is so sleazy and unapologetic
that’s how they act when they get caught, remember the Catholic Church
Camera/mic access seems like overreach. PII should be obfuscated and only accessible with an audited workflow that includes an access review.
Modern off the shelf MDM is capable of this.
wait schools dont have computer labs anymore??? in ALL my schools and the one im in right now we have them
I honestly don’t know if they do or don’t have. I’d imagine it also varies by region. I just know schools have started giving out laptops to kids to take home if they are needed.
I understand the difference between a laptop and PC thanks.
Now imagine if, and hear me out, one didn’t bring school hardware home so some “creepy IT administrator” doesn’t have access.
“Save the kids” arguments always fall flat on the face when the solution is as simple as leaving school devices at school.
They have to take it home for homework.
No, they don’t. I am sure the majority have a computer or smart phone at home, and if not libraries exist for a reason.
There are more people in poverty without a computer than you realize. Now write me a 5 paragraph essay with correct source citation on your smart phone.
Yeah it’s a good thing homework doesn’t exist.
Good thing for home computers, smart devices, and libraries eh?
Good thing nobody is poor!
Good thing poor people have access to public libraries. I know from experience.
There are “book deserts” where it can be difficult to visit a public library.
There are plenty of articles showing how libraries across the country are closing, usually in poor neighborhoods.
Many of the kids affected have no access to another device. The whole reason schools supply hardware now is because it’s needed to access their educational materials, and it’s massively inequitable to only have students who have money able to develop their skills at home.
This isn’t isolated to school-issued equipment. While this article is mostly talking about high school students, this same situation plagues upper education, as well. My roommate was recently taking some college courses from home, and the proctoring software they require installs rootkit-level spyware on his computer and tried monitoring our entire network activity.
I’ve had to use that horrible software in university. I asked for accommodations because I use Linux and they issued me a university laptop for exams.
I would schedule it at the school testing center and take it there just to avoid it.
That is 100% a different issue.
Not really, though. In both scenarios, somebody attending a public school is required to have invasive spyware running on their devices.
The difference between schools installing the programs on their own hardware and installing them on personal devices is stark and I cannot take any argument seriously that ignores this.
You’re missing the point. Either way, the use of this invasive software is required in order to attend public school.
I cannot take any argument seriously that ignores this.
Either way, the use of this invasive software is required in order to attend public school.
Oh? Who is forcing the use of school issued equipment?
Last time I checked one did not need a school issued device to attend a public school. In fact I would go out on a limb and say the majority are too underfunded to give every student a device in the first place.
Oh? Who is forcing the use of school issued equipment?
The schools. Many assignments are given 100% digitally now, with no option for a pencil-and-paper version outside of special needs situations, which not every student qualifies for.
Last time I checked
“was clearly a long time ago” is how that sentence should’ve ended.
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The article has a pretty convincing argument against it. You should read the whole thing.
I read the article and it is not in any way convincing.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Why? Can you elaborate on why this is not an issue and kids should be monitored by a 3rd party?
I already made that clear in my original comment.
No you did not. You just stated that this was the case. I’m asking why that is/should be acceptable.
Why is it normal to put monitoring software on?
Why does a 3rd party need to monitor it?
What are they monitoring that would be considered acceptable?I honestly ask, because I can’t think of any reason.
Or is this similar to “mass shootings are a fact of life”?
No you did not. You just stated that this was the case. I’m asking why that is/should be acceptable.
These are school issued machines, and like all machines issued by a 3rd party for use under their supervision, they come with monitoring software.
Clear as day. Glad we cleared this up.
Troll… that is not an explanation on why.
Yes it is an explanation why.
Your question: Why is/should this be acceptable.
My answer: These are school issued machines, and like all machines issued by a 3rd party for use under their supervision, they come with monitoring software.
It is acceptable because it is the schools property and they can do as they wish with it. Everyone else is free to not use those machines.
This is not a hard thing to grasp.
But since you are just being combative we are done here.
That is not an explanation on why this is the case. Cowardly slinking away into the shadows is par for the course.
Just for thought:
- Is everyone free not to use them? (Does the school offer solutions for byod?)
- Can people afford to make another choice while at the same time being forced to use laptops?
- Is the type of monitoring reasonable and proportional?
I’ll bet a dollar the answer to this all is NO.
The whole pro company schtick is getting old.
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Damn right.
Justify it however you want it but this is a huge over reach esp since we got some shiti 3p vendor involved to middle man this.
I totally trust them not to sell that data after it is “properly anonymized” or “leaked” 🤡
Can you explain to me how a 3rd party putting monitoring software on their own hardware is an over reach?
School is the counterparty and a state actor with everything that entails sign a poorly negotiated, likely corruption ridden contract with some trust me bro we don’t sell data, vendor, ie third party.
Now your child is subject to a contract arrangement that you are not privy too that enables some “dudes” to track your child’s usage of equipment.
If you don’t see this as an overeach, society has really degraded esp in context of the child abuse issues we are coming grips with.
School is the counterparty and a state actor with everything that entails sign a poorly negotiated, likely corruption ridden contract with some trust me bro we don’t sell data, vendor, ie third party.
What could be gained by monitoring someones school activity that is not already bought and sold by social media companies that the majority use excessively and daily?
Now your child is subject to a contract arrangement that you are not privy too that enables some “dudes” to track your child’s usage of equipment.
Don’t use third party hardware if you are worried about being monitored.
If you don’t see this as an overeach, society has really degraded esp in context of the child abuse issues we are coming grips with.
If you could make a real argument that isn’t a personal attack or logical fallacy that would be great.
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Yeah, when i was in school; there were no devices issued to students. We had ‘computer labs’. Ie; a room full of computers for student use. There was always one computer for the teachers to use that had a remote-desktop interface monitoring every screen in the room live. They could always see what you were doing, lockout your keyboard/mouse, blank your display.
This really doesn’t seem any different.
I could understand outrage if students were require to install this on their own hardware; but school issued devices are under the schools monitoring and control. Always have been.
These are different because kids take these computers home, and it’s some random working for a 3rd party monitoring what’s going on.
Creepy.
kids take these computers home
I feel like that is the bigger problem. These aren’t private/personal devices; students shouldn’t be treating them as personal devices. Especially knowing it’s a monitored device.
Properly educating students on the use of these devices is the solution. Not telling schools to turn a blind eye to the use of their own equipment.
These are fucking kids. They are still learning what devices do and what their appropriate use is. If they are like me, they have probably already found ways to watch porn, monitor their crush’s computer, read their email, and get into their webcam.
It’s not lack of education.
It’s lack of impulse control.
If they are like me, they have probably already found ways to watch porn, monitor their crush’s computer, read their email, and get into their webcam.
I got into quite a bit of similar mischief as a (pre)teen; but I didn’t do any of it on equipment that I knew was monitored (at least, monitored and signed out to me…)
Then you were the exception.
I mean yeah, I don’t watch porn on an office computer at work after all. They should have their own devices for all that stuff. School devices = school-related activity only, no more.
Like doing homework in your room? Where now the monitor can turn on your webcam without you knowing and watch you in your personal space?
And again; I think that’s a bit of a separate issue. These devices shouldn’t be equipped with cameras, let alone have the camera monitored/accessible.
The actual activity happening on the device; running applications, what’s on screen/in storage, even it’s location (with informed notice of said tracking) sure. but there’s no need to monitor/access the camera regardless of how or where the device is used.
A simple piece of tape fixes this problem. (plus education to teach students why, ofc)
tape on the computer camera? my family’s done that for years on all/most of our devices lmao
When doing zoom calls for work I do it behind a curtain. Nobody sees my home at all. Then I cover the cam when not in use. These are just common sense privacy measures we should be teaching them anyway.
Even if kid limits it to that, this arrangement is still no appropriate.
I agree that this is no different, and has the same solution: Don’t use the schools computers for things that aren’t for school and you won’t have no problems.
