They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, “one rape every six minutes,” “not all men but always a man,” and “giving in is not consenting.”
They chant: “Rapist we see you, victim we believe you.”
Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.
The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over “rape culture” and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.
‘Not all men but always a man’ seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Otherwise, I’m absolutely in favour of rehabilitation, and if necessary, isolation of rapists - of all genders. I hope the court/government can be made to agree
From the article:
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
It seems that sexual violence has been hidden in plain sight and downplayed heavily by the police and justice system, or simply socially accepted.
It’s estimated 10% of people have been victim of incest, here in France. How can you build something safe based on that.
I don’t believe our current justice system allows for proper rehabilitation. Second offense for such crimes are still very high (10%?).
IMHO It’s a nation wide educational failure and our politicians aren’t really keen on fixing this, for now.
Were you responding to something specific I said or just providing more facts?
Just providing more facts on the “all men” plus maybe a bit more context on the situation here.
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If you flag the same post multiple times again, you will be banned.
You cannot flag the same post multiple times on Lemmy.
You’re under the impression it is because it’s an exact copy paste comment multiple times in the same post which is the reason I flagged it as spam…
Look flyingsquid,
It’s not cool to publically expose reports that can be sensitive in nature and can put a target on a users back for what they report which can be especially dangerous if people find out the real life details on a user on lemmy and target them in real life or do something like swatting which can get someone seriously hurt or killed
A private message would be a lot better for communicating with users
How does France legally define rape ?
If its a gendered definition then the statistics are incorrect because rape can be committed by both sexes
These statistics are more biased by our police not accepting the victims’ complaints than our justice’s definition, or also what we see as socially acceptable. That’s why these stats have risen so much in the recent years.
Heck our president met his wife when he was a minor and she was his school teacher, we have ex high government official mixed in incest stories…
As much as it’s false to say it’s always men, these numbers exist more as a reflection of our justice system and shouldn’t be used to infer stats on the society as a whole.
‘Not all men but always a man’ seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Oh, it’s much worse than that: the CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
50% of all cross-gender rapists are women, and yet almost 100% of all convicted rapists are men.
What an exemplary case of systemic gender bigotry and misandry in society and the legal establishment.
Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yes that 4% really really must be stopped.
Yes.
All of it should be. Why the fuck shouldn’t it be stopped too? Wtf?
Nice try from an overly quoted study done on bad faith, here is a better one that shows, with sources, that said study is incorrect.
From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
I like how he talks about the “overly quoted study” (which is not actually where the statistic in the article comes from, but whatever) and yet he has posted this same article literally everywhere in here as a way of justifying dismissal of the fact that nearly all rapes and sexual assaults are committed by men.
I don’t like that sign. Sure, when she gets raped it’s probably a man but every time it’s happened to me so far it has been a woman, so, no not “always a man.”
“Good” news is that while I was forced to have sex (or else what was I gonna do fight her? Yeah that won’t end with me in cuffs) it isn’t rape because definitionally the worst women can do in my area is sexual assault, and people only care if you’re a minor, just try and report it as an adult. Most people just think “oh you’re a man you must’ve liked it” and just minimize it away because we’re just sex objects so who fucking cares, I just had to get the fuck over it and I did, but it still pisses me off that I’m literally the victim of this shit and treated like a perpetrator by default just because I happen to have a penis, it’s the ultimate “fuck you” on top really.
As a male SA victim I have been repeatedly told that it was my fault for having the privilege. So I guess “you’re welcome” to both of us.
Women will continue to have their feelings trampled on by men because that’s all they’re teaching us as kids.
You should look inwards to figure out why you’re so outraged by the existence of male rape victims. It’s a you issue.
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Its a shame an obviously inflammatory sign and clickbait seeking article image has made it so that the discussion is mostly off topic.
Its insane and the whole evil piece of shit that perpetrated his kink of having multiple people raped by omission and literal drugging and rape gets away from conversations by the obvious bullshit of absolutes is insane to me. how about no victim blaming on either side and recognition that rape is awful abuse of power dynamics that occur whenever its viewed as possible.
But also this post should probably be removed because that sign is meant to cause this kinda of angry response and it leads into a lot of hurt victims and happily ignorant people hand waving it away.
There were multiple people raped by omision?
Told that it was the wife’s kink to pretend to be asleep and that consent was given earlier to be passed on since they would be roleplaying as soon as they got in the bedroom…
Fuck that’s fucked up, typing out.If stealthing is rape by altered consent then this certainly falls somewhere in that spectrum too.
reportedly saying he received a message on coco.gg reading, “I am indeed his wife, and I agree to welcome you.” [Source]
Edit for a quote but yeah I mean this is a huge deal and full of insane testimony that should be the basis of this discussion.
Basically threesomes where 1 of the participants have not been given a chance to fully consent and 1 was given none. Because of 1 guy who enjoyed the power he felt.
I think anyone practicing this kink knows to get proper consent before hand, a text message doesn’t cut it. They knew exactly what was going on imo.
I would hope that to be true but know that it’s not how life works. So maybe stop thinking you know who everyone else is and what they know.
Obviously the perpetrator knew and from testimony some others certainly did but not everyone thinks about their life so closely.
Hopefully it inspires more people to take vocal recorded consent and have safe words/actions but even then people will still be stupid because people don’t know what they don’t know.Best we can educate others, pity (where possible), and hold accountable for their actions as needed.
The men didn’t care about the woman’s consent. They just wanted to fuck so they accepted whatever was said. They’re victims of their own bad judgment.
Came here to see discussions about the truly insane case mentioned in the article. Actually found an entire comment section full of ‘not all men’ vs ‘basically all men’ threads
Do I want to scroll down? Nah, not really.
I’ll just leave this here: No, not all men are rapists. Yes, all men should stand up to them. It’s that simple and if you deviate from that formula you dive into rape culture or misandry, depending, are part of the problem, actively, passively, in one way or the other.
As a man, have this attitude (there’s subtitles).
As a woman… “Dudes it’s only an embellishment” “noone thinks ‘all men’ is meant seriously” STFU you’re being catty you know exactly how often women use covert aggression, use plausible deniability to get away with the vilest shit, even if you don’t mean it like that right now, in this instance, it’s still how it’s perceived, and no, not all men deserve to be treated like that. So cut it out.
The internet loves to argue with a generalization that is only true 9,999 times out of ten thousand.
Help me with the math on this, if “it’s always men” 9,999 out of 10,000 times, and I’ve personally been raped by two women, what’re my odds on that? I must be getting all the rape the women of the world can dish out then, huh?
Couldn’t possibly be that men seldom report, seldom are taken seriously when they do, and even when they are taken seriously in many places women can’t legally “rape” so the best they can get a slap on the wrist for is “Sexual Assault” for forcing men to have sex with them? Could it? No waaaaayyyyy.
Instead of letting my numbers make you feel small, perhaps think for a second how enormous the problem of male sexual assault is. That’s the math help you need here.
I agree, male sexual assault is a problem and nobody is talking about it. In fact when we (males who have been sexually assaulted) try and, not even “be included,” just “not be excluded,” we’re told to sit down and shut up, we’re only 4% so we don’t matter, we must’ve liked it if our body responded naturally to stimulus, she was hot anyway so we’re lucky, and quit being a pussy." In fact legally in my area and many more the worst the women who forced me to have sex with them even could be charged with is sexual assault becausr technically “rape” requires penetration. Isn’t that fucked up?
How 'bout instead of trying to silence male victims of sexual assault when they’re rightfully indignant about being excluded you do a little soul searching and try and realize why we “always have to make the conversation about us” when people write signs like “not all men but always a man,” m’kay? Maybe that introspection will lead you to opinions like “rape is possible for women to commit, and it’s bad when they do it too, AND we should speak for all victims of all genders or lack thereof, and against all abusers of all genders or lack thereof, rather than ‘men bad women good nonbinary irrelevant.’”
How 'bout instead of trying to silence male victims of sexual assault when they’re rightfully indignant about being excluded you do a little soul searching
Dude you’re desperately trying to make this about you and aiming all your complaints about society at me when I have done exactly nothing you describe.
Here we are, in a thread about a woman being raped, with you lecturing me about how much male rape matters. That just says everything right there.
If you think no one online talks about or cares about male rape then you just aren’t listening. It’s one of Reddit’s favorite topics. They never miss a chance to highlight male rape, and threads about it get 100x the love of those discussing the problem of rape by males. Your issue is, in a word, overrepresented if anything.
You matter. Your trauma matters. You really seem to need to hear that. But yeah your assault is not in fact interchangeable with that of women. Theirs is the result of systematic devaluing and oppression of women across our culture that makes assault almost inevitable. Yours is a deplorable act of violence but not continuous with the entire fabric of our society.
In other words, we’re set up to rape females. And so we’d better talk about that. What do we do to prevent much more rare and isolated incidents of violence? I’m really not sure how much we have to say about that.
Anyway I won’t reply again or read replies. It’s been said.
“Overrepresented”
“Always a man.”
Yeah, I guess it has been said. Fuck me for calling out bullshit when I see it, I should just sit down and shut up again, huh?
Good, don’t reply.
Then maybe you should understand that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
Now consider: how many women do you see convicted and jailed for rape?
crickets
That’s the sound of massive gender bigotry in play, right there - 50% of all cross-gender rapists getting away Scott-free, purely by virtue of their gender.
His point is that is not what the article is about. It’s off-topic.
I get that you’re passionate about getting your point across but it’s swamping the discussion a bit.
It’s not off topic. If you link me to a YouTube video with a sponsor that really sucks, I’m gonna talk about how that sponsor sucks. You can’t just tack on some garbage and be all “just ignore that part, it’s not up for debate.”
I understand that it merits discussion but every thread on this post is about that aspect, and that’s frankly a bit much.
Show me a sign that’s demonizing me, and I’m gonna focus on that rather than whatever they’re pretending the sign is about. You teach your boys that their feelings don’t matter and that they’re bad out the gate and that’s how they’re gonna treat you when they’re older.
You teach your boys that their feelings don’t matter and that they’re bad out the gate
Cue mandatory anti-rape training at higher ed, but only for men, ramming home the myth that men are the source of all of society’s ills and the villain in all possible crimes.
Whoa that escalated quickly, and is entirely not about what I was saying.
Well if you wanna be on topic, address the problem instead of making it worse. We’re in here criticizing those people making it worse. Quit defending their bullshit.
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Ok, wow, this is a fucked up thread.
I just came here to say “More power to her!”, she’s setting an incredible example and we need to turn back the misogyny and just general sexual violence that we’ve had in society since time immemorial.
Wow, so smart and supportive of you to pick a side and fling shit the other way.
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What do you mean? What other side? The rapist’s side? Are you saying you are on the rapist’s side?
Acting stupid here only helps your case with the stupid among the audience. You know damn well this is about demonizing men.
Honestly I’m also confused by your reply. How is a woman going to court because she’s been raped by 50+ strangers demonizing men? I’m asking questions, not from stupidity, but because you aren’t making sense.
No I’m genuinely confused by what you said. The only other side, is the multiple rapists in the article. There is the victim, and then the people who raped her. Which “other side” are you referring to? Are you
openone of those sociopathic trolls who get off on making comments like this to cause discord? *Autocorrect edit
You take a statement about how women shouldn’t be raped as a personal attack. Thanks for letting us all know to keep as much distance between us and you as possible, very thoughtful :3
You’re the black mage.
I thought you were against acting stupid?
Feel like quitting that any time soon?
My heart breaks for her. I’m glad she gets to see the support of those around her while going through this. And Jesus fuck, how can you even do that to someone? I just cannot wrap my mind of being able to hurt someone like that, and then to keep doing that, and just go on living life. I’m not religious, but I hope that man burns in hell.
My mom molested me when I was a child. Not always a man, and fuck that bitch for trying to pretend it’s so.
She was likely raped (by a male, perhaps her father?) much like you were by your mother. It’s very callous to refer to her as a bitch because a sign. Women aren’t attending these protests because they find them fun. They are victims like you.
So if I make a sign that says “not all women but always a woman” because so far, both times I’ve been raped are by women, there wouldn’t be an uproar about how it’s sexist and excludes woman victims of male abusers?
Why should I be cast aside, lumped in with the “always a man” crowd as an abuser, while the women who abused me are lauded as victims? Why not just care about all victims of abuse? Why do we say “well you’re only 4% so you don’t matter” or “sit down and shut up we’re not talking about you” whenever male victims just want to be fucking included in the conversation and not forgotten about for once, and by the group that should be recognizing us as compatriots in our trauma at that?
She doesn’t have to put us down to make herself feel better and we’re rightfully angry that it happened again.
Hi, you didn’t read a word I said. I sympathize with male rape victims. This article is not about them though.
Ok I was always abused by multiple women, time to make a sign thay says always a woman
Please feel free too. I’m very sorry that happened to you, I know how it feels to be victimized in that way.
Funny how you jump into assumptions and justifications for her without knowing a thing about her other than her gender and the signpost she has, yet wag your finger at another victim for having a reaction to a message invalidating a ton of rape victims, and also lumping them in the same group as their abuser, as if it was an inherent, genderlocked flaw.
If you don’t see that as a double standard, then you should really read my last paragraph again and reevaluate your biases.
I think you might have some biases of your own. You are accusing me of the very thing you are guilty of too. Maybe we can at least agree its awful to be raped by people?
Did you like, Just get unbanned or something? Coming back after two months to revive old threads, with accusations of people being biased.
Being raped is beyond horrible, clearly, no matter the gender relationship. Going to an anti-rape protest with a sign invalidating rape victims is fucked up too.
And, Where am I guilty of what you are doing? Where am I making excuses for rape apologists and sexists statements?
No I was never banned. I am not chronically online. I don’t use an app for this website. I sign in on a browser, coming back every couple months, and might look at and respond to my messages if I feel like it. That’s not that abnormal. And I don’t take it as an insult that you seem think it is? Very odd. Sorry you are offended. I hope you have a good morning or evening depending what part of the planet you are currently on.
It’s just exactly like the people who saw “black lives matter” and thought they meant only black lives matter. They see the sign saying “not all men but always men” and ignored the first part and focused on the second part. Then proceeded to ignore the actual subject of the article (you know, the woman who was continually raped without her knowledge or consent for over 10 years by 50 or possibly more men and the fact that the defense is arguing that “maybe she secretly knew and liked it”). And are completely focused on being outraged by the sign.
This would only be correct or even make sense if you didn’t get triggered by a sign that read always a woman.
Imagine being the victim of a female pedophile and seeing that sign
Husband aside, that’s 50 separate people who thought this was okay. Ffs
Allegedly, they didn’t. Multiple men were contacted through a swingers website, and allegedly led to believe she was a willing participant pretending to be asleep, instead of what she really was, the victim of a disgusting monster, drugged and undressed without her knowledge, for the pleasure of a sick monster.
To the point where one of her abusers, fully aware of what he did, wrote to her to apologize from jail, realizing what he had done under false pretenses, and aware that by not doing his due diligence, he raped her in the literal sense of the word.
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This is making me really angry. They knowingly and willingly had sex with her without getting her consent because they didn’t believe it was important enough. They had no problem with someone else speaking for her. This is part of what she is trying to bring attention to and you are pretending these men are victims. I am disgusted. Due diligence? Really? This is rape not a fucking business transaction. The fact that they could be so careless about her bodily autonomy and need no consent from her is damning of them and of you for defending them. Fuck everything about this.
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I would hope that one that would be interested in this type of stuff would be meeting the affected party first :/
So would I, and I also wish nobody did meth. A lot of dangerous things have been normalized by many people, to the point where they get so used to them, that they seem normal and relatively harmless to them, only because their “normal” is so fucking far from the socially acceptable normal.
Because he said it was their kink to them.
50 codefendants in a case against one woman? How horrific.
Thank you to the French women doing this. However, since this is France, my biggest worry is this will be shot down with a big red flag/note saying:
How can we fix this when the government keeps protecting the real rapists: minorities
Yeah Western Europe culturally not looking too clever these days re right wing shit. Not that America is doing any better mind.
Whole world is looking quite pathetic right now.
imagine taking this story, about where a woman was systematically drugged and raped for OVER 10 YEARS, and going “ah yes but what about the men?!?”. I truly feel for the men in the comments sharing their stories, and I hope they continue to share and raise awareness, but Jesus y’all not the time
Let me ask you a question.
If this were about a gang of black people committing some crime, and as a protest someone was carrying a sign that said “not all black people, but always a black person” would you be telling people it’s “not the time” to point out the obvious and blatant racism?
Take your own fucking advice. If men talking about their own rapes triggers you so, then you are the same crap you are crying about. You are sexist beyond belief.
It’s never the fucking time for male abuse victims to speak up and tell their stories, we’re always told to shut up and deal with it.
I’s never the fucking time for male abuse victims to speak up and tell their stories
It’s never time to break the status quo, even if it means liberation for those considered in minority groups (in this case people assaulted by women vs people assaulted by men). I’m paraphrasing a MLK article passed around a few weeks ago.
In his letter sent from jail, King went on to criticize white moderates. He said that a white moderate is someone “who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom.” Such a person is, according to King, someone “who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season.’”
RIP MLK. All the love
If he were alive and protesting today you’d be whining about how white lives matter too and he’s a racist asshole who thinks white people deserve to be lynched. Fuck off
Who are you referring to here? A specific person or Americans in general?
The person I’m replying to, though tbf I don’t actually know if they’re racist like that, but they and a lot of people in this comment section are speaking out against this protest about a woman who got raped constantly and rape culture against women and trying to make it about the issues men face. it’s all very “I’m white and i got harassed by a cop, so this protest about police shooting a black child should be about me too”
I was molested by a woman as a child. That sign just makes me see red, I’m sorry if my trauma and triggers are inconveniently timed for you
Yeah exactly. I’m a man who was assaulted as a kid by a woman. Shit happens. But looking at what shit happens most often - it’s sexual violence perpetrated by men against women.
I don’t know how we change that. Maybe by continuing to level up the power dynamic between men and women, I feel like we’ve been making some progress with that over the past century. Finally. But it’s more than that, there are too many idiot arseholes who think they can have anything their fists can beat down. Almost all of them are men.
Pretty much every girlfriend and female friend I’ve ever had has had bad experiences with men. Women I have cared about over the years have had experiences across the spectrum from cat calling and comments back when they were kids in school uniforms all the way through to stranger rape. Domestic violence isn’t uncommon either.
I dunno, I wish I had a solution. It fuckin breaks my heart - when a close friend or a partner opens up about what happened to her and there’s nothing you can do, it’s years too late, you have these thoughts like if I’d been there I could have stopped it- but it happened years ago and you are fuckin helpless to do anything except maybe hug her if she’s comfortable with that, or if not try to tell her it’s over, she’s safe and stronger now, whatever you think might help.
You don’t realise how harmful sexual assault is until you’ve been unable to help someone you love. The key word isn’t ‘sexual’, it’s ‘assault’.
Shit like that makes me fuckin ashamed to be a bloke. I don’t know how we fix this, but I’ve got two suggestions for a good start - firstly, we don’t do that shit. Never, there’s never an excuse. Secondly, we fuckin shut down other guys, even if they’re our mates, if they start with that sort of talk.
Yeah, there’s wrong uns in whatever gender. But in terms of atrocity it’s us men well in the lead. We gotta change that. I think we can at least fuckin try.
thanks for being one of the reasonable ones in this comment section lol. and it seems you’re doing a pretty good job of trying to enact change. keep it up, it’s a team effort :)
sorry to hear about your story as well, hope everything is going well for you now.
Cheers, yeah I’ve kinda grown into my own shit. It’s caused me a lot of problems over the years, but I’m getting old now and I’m okay with stuff.
I’m just saying that anyone can get hurt like that, but it’s mostly women getting hurt and it’s mostly men doing the hurting. We’ve got to fuckin stop doing that because it is profoundly wrong.
Lol does it feel good that they literally called you “one of the good ones?”
Personally I think that’s pretty wild, imagine saying that to a black person lol. I’d frankly be upset by that
if I were youwait I am upset about it lol, look at me being one of those uppity men again.They said reasonable ones, not good ones. Those words have two different meanings. Don’t put words in their mouth.
Mmhmm, and if I told my friend (who is black, important note) that I like him because he’s one of “the reasonable ones,” that would be tooootally normal and not racist at all right? Right?
Ooooooooooooooooooookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
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no that’s not true at all. you’re supposed to talk about it, to share your stories, to go to therapy, support groups. to make online spaces to discuss and heal and grow. same as women. unfortunately, the only time I ever see men share their stories is when it takes away from a women’s experience, which is disgusting as has been happening more and more on this app.
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It literally does matter when you talk. If BLM groups only ever protested when there was another protest they could hijack that would garbage. Stop talking over other victims if you actually give a shit. Doing what you and arcaneslime and a bunch of other m*n here are doing has the same effect as going to a BLM protest with All Lives Matter signs
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Removed, civility.
LMAO really signaling allegiances censoring “men” like that. I would take a cue from you and start censoring w*men but thankfully I don’t actually hate “women,” I hate rape apologists like you.
And I’m “a menonite” or whatever you called me earlier, right. You’ve got problems lmao.
And don’t talk about me behind my back, have the common decency to tag me in your little tantrums.
If it weren’t for that “but always a man”, there would be no issue. Celebrating “but always a man” is the issue driving objections here.
The problem is the sign in the thumbnail. It sure as good god fuck is not always men and you’re a disgusting liar to claim that.
jesus man, not everything is about you. sure, not all men are sexual predators. easy enough to agree on. but the point is that all men have had opportunities to call their peers out on creepy behavior, whether it’s catcalling, looking down on women, sexualizing them, etc. and failed. each of these 50 plus men in this story could’ve reported this as odd, or talked to the women and made sure she was ok, or hung around until the drugs wore off to double check, and didn’t. each of them were given an opportunity and they took full advantage of it and of her. so yeah. all men have failed women at some point, and each of your MANY comments in this thread are honestly just another example of that, taking away from this poor women’s story to wage your personal crusade.
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It’s the same argument people made during the black lives movement by saying all lives matter. Of course all lives matter, but right now we are talking about black lives cause they are the ones hurting. Woman are the overwhelming majority of sexual abuse victims. We are talking about them right now. I say this as a male who was a victim of abuse by an older woman.
Talking about it is never a problem, but a sign that says “always a man” is factually wrong and invisibilising, it is more harmful than helpful. It’s right to point it out, I think
This doesn’t quite work. In fact, I think it’s the opposite.
The way I heard it described, which really drove the point home, was that imagine you are at a table and the food is being passed around. Every time it gets to you, the food is passed right past you. Everyone has a full plate except you. You say “hey, I deserve my fair share!” and then some jamoke says “we all deserve our fair share.” It’s missing the point, because you currently aren’t getting your fair share, and your unique plight is being ignored.
The sign in the case here is diminishing the fact that there are victims of females. They aren’t saying “women are unique victims” here, they are saying “men are unique perpetrators.”
Without the sign, this conversation doesn’t happen. You should be on the side of everyone else here and should be saying “hey, keep your misandry to yourself, this is about female victims” but instead you’re arguing “we should just let blatant misandry slide right now because we are talking about a female victim of a man.” It would be like (as I said in another post) letting blatant racism in a protest slide because the perpetrator was black and the victim was white.
It’s not the story in general, it’s the “but always a man” that’s objectionable.
Oh yes the ever ignored male rape victims who are indignant enough to speak up in the face of a sign like this aren’t included in “the one’s hurting” because you’re literally ignoring their screams for help from the movement that is ignoring them almost harder than the rest of the world at large, by literally lumping male victims in with abusers and woman abusers in with victims, and then turning around and pretending we’re the fucking problem for being mad about that.
It’s not enough I have to be raped by two different women, I have to be treated like an inhuman unfeeling monster simply because I have a wiener while I watch my literal abusers be praised for being the right gender, and then when I say “hey maybe don’t unfairly treat me as a pariah” I get told to sit down and shut up because “we’re not talking about you right now?” Well guess what? We certainly are talking about me now whether you like it or not. I’m sick of it if I’m being perfectly honest and I’m not going to let people pretend I’m culpable for the actions of others any longer, nor will I let them silence me and excuse my abusers with signs like these.
I’m sorry for the abuse you’ve experienced and for how dismissed you may feel. Your pain is valid, and it’s important that it’s acknowledged.
Regarding the woman’s sign, it contains a false statement. However, she is just one person making that claim. While there may be others who share her view, they are a minority and don’t represent the majority of the movement or the core issue. My point is that signs like hers can distract from the broader discussion—that the vast majority of sexual assault and abuse victims are women, and now is the time to raise awareness about that.
Of course, men like you and I have been abused by women as well, and it’s essential that all forms of abuse are recognized and addressed. We must advocate for all victims. But in this moment, let’s focus on standing behind the women who are survivors and show them our support.
But in this moment, let’s focus on standing behind the women who are survivors and show them our support.
This should be directed at the person waving the sign, not at the people pointing out the blatant misandry of it. She is the one making it about about the aggressors, while at the same time pissing on some victims.
You know good and well she’s not the only person saying things like “all men,” though she may be the first I’ve seen say “only men.” Why are you lying? I’ve been a male victim of female abusers since years ago by now, you think I don’t remember each and every time someone has said “shut up and sit down we’re not talking about you right now?” I’ve lived this shit, you can’t tell me it isn’t happening when it happens constantly. And racists are in the minority too, should I not call out their bullshit when I see that too or is that fine because that isn’t a belief you hold?
My point is that signs like hers distract from the broader discussion and that is why they should be actively discouraged even if they really don’t care about us. Your point is that I’m the problem for having feelings about her sign or for voicing my opinions on it. Well, I disagree. This is exactly where my opinion belongs, right in defiance of that bullshit wherever it presents itself.
I’m not the one shifting the focus, “always men” is. I’d be all about it if the sign simply said “Justice for Gisèle Pelicot” or something. She chose to make the sign, and the website chose to prominently feature it, be mad at them. That’s what I’m mad at, they are the ones that are attempting to erase male victims not Gisèle Pelicot, hell I stand with her too, I’m not just about male victims I’m the one in here begging for women to actually include male victims in the anti-SA movement ffs!
And have been asking for it for years by the way, only to always be told “sit down shut up it isn’t your time you’re only 4% you must’ve liked it anyway you’re lucky you got laid quit being a pussy and complaining,” at every fucking turn.
This 100%. If men being raped is such a massive issue to yall, make your own protest about it, don’t shit on the protests of marginalized people bc they’re fighting for their own rights and not yours
Terrible fucking sign and tone deaf af
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I’m not one of them, but the problem is the sign in the thumbnail. Without that I doubt it would’ve upset as many people.
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Nah lol I literally would be in here in full support without the sign, but with the sign I am reminded that even though I have been raped by two different women, not only am I seen as a horrid abuser for the crime of having been born with a penis, the women who raped me are seen as victims for the virtue of having a vagina. Erasing male victims and woman perpetrators in one fell swoop really isn’t a good look, it makes the issue gendered rather than about abusers V victims, and then to turn it around and claim that men are making it “all about us” as if the sign didn’t lead us there in the first place is some A+ victim blaming.
If women don’t like that the conversation becomes about male victims in response to their erasure of male victims (and in this case woman perpetrators), then women should start speaking up for ALL victims instead of erasing us, regardless of how insignificant they think we are ignoring us is hurting OUR cause, yes “ours:” victims’ regardless of gender.
“yea I’d like this protest, but there’s literally one sign that offends me and they didn’t chant my name so fuck them all” you’re a piece of work omg xD
No u lmao, you literally are trying to silence victims of rape as we speak and you think I’m the piece of work? You having a stroke or something?
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Then put that on the sign, not “always men” ffs. The sign is a lie and a problem and the fact that you can’t see that means you’re part of that problem.
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To be quite frank, the vast majority of sexual violence against women is perpetrated by men. The vast majority of all sexual violence is against women.
Oh thank you for clarifying why you think me being raped is insignificant and doesn’t matter. Wanna go for the rest of the hits while we’re here? “You must have enjoyed it because you’re a man” and “she was hot you should consider yourself lucky,” or who could forget the classic “get over it pussy?”
Fine, if there’s nothing left to say, then say nothing. That’ll be better than what you’ve been doing.
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Just say you don’t care about men and you’re sexist. Would be way easier for you
I didn’t even look at the thumbnail. I’m a man btw. If I had to rewrite that sign it might say ‘NOT ALL MEN - JUST TOO MANY’. Or, I dunno, something like that.
I kinda feel like, for blokes there are two important things we can do. Aside from stop having arguments about who’s the bigger victim (it’s women). First is just don’t do that shit. Just don’t. It’s actually easy and rewarding to not be a bad person. Second is don’t let any other guys get away with even talking like that. Even if they’re mates, step the fuck up and let them know that talk is not okay. Let’s be honest, many of us have heard our mates talk about women in a way we weren’t quite comfy with and afterwards thought we should have said something. Say something.
If she held up a sign holding “all gays should die” would that be enough to talk about? A protest for a good cause is not a free pass to spread untruths. There are some men in this thread who were actually raped and you rail against them for sharing their story. The trial still goes on, it’s not like people here are in favor of the rapists?
To use your inflammatory language: it’s unbelievably stupid and fragile to believe you get to direct the contents of the topic. Let the adults talk
Imagine I’m selling a nice camera tripod but in the commercial people are beating each other to death with it. You walk into a Lemmy post about it and people are only talking about the ridiculous commercial. You gonna stand up and be like “Why isn’t anyone talking about the product!?” like that’s the real topic?
We’re not in here talking about what happened. We’re talking about the news. The news is saying my half of the population is bad because of their story which I’m half a world away from and have no reason to believe.
terminally online men try not to take a picture of a random sign in an otherwise unrelated article personally challenge (impossible)
Reading is fucking hard I guess
And yet, what no-one wants to face is the fact that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
I mean, yes - let’s lock up convicted rapists. But if 50%of cross-gender rapists are women yet almost 100% of convicted rapists are men, there’s some seriously weapons-grade gender bigotry at play, there.
A legal system that is truly based on equality should see about a 50/50 split of male/female rapists convicted, and for largely equal time served as well.
I think you are hand-picking numbers here. The most current CDC Report on Intimate Partner Violence does not support your claims. https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/NISVSReportonIPV_2022.pdf
The report you picked excludes quite a lot of victims as it’s about intimite partner violence which it defines as:
The term, intimate partner violence, refers to any physical or sexual violence, stalking, and/or psychological aggression by a current or former dating partner or spouse.
For the full numbers not just for intimate partners you want this report https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/nisvsReportonSexualViolence.pdf which confusingly has the same title. It states 2.3% of women raped in a 12 month timeframe and 0.3% of men being raped and 1.3% made to penetrate in the same timeframe, so 1.6% of men either raped or made to penetrate.
So for the first study, I have my emotionally abusive ex that would threaten suicide (at the drop of a hat, but also) when I wasn’t in the mood, and for the “full numbers” there’s the two women I never dated that raped me. Huh, neat. I wonder why the only three abusive women to exist in the world chose me. Couldn’t be that it’s more common than people think or anything, no waaaay.
I took a look at the CDC report. Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story. It’s interesting to see why there’s a jump in those numbers for the 12 months preceding, but otherwise if you look at lifetime numbers women are victimized at significantly higher rates than men.
an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes
that’s being penetrated, I think it doesn’t include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong. I only saw the 1.6% of men reporting “unwanted sexual contact” in the last 12 months, which is compared to the women reporting at 2.2% of women, which is while still almost 40% higher, closer than lifetime experiences which are estimated at 27.3% vs 10.8%. Guess which is which.
An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences.
This includes being made to penetrate and other things, again if you can find where the 1.6% comes from please let me know.
An estimated 15.2% of women and 5.7% of men have been a victim of stalking during their lifetimes
this is interestingly one of the categories where it is not as close in the last 12 months: women’s rate double men’s. not central to my overall point but it is surprising because if anything I expected this to be closer than other categories, considering social media making stalking easier. just a note.
here’s an interesting part about “always a man”:
women are predominantly predated by men in all forms, but men are predominantly made to penetrate and coerced by women (I guess this is expected more than men would be doing this?), while penetrated predominantly by men (I guess obvious) and suffering other forms of sexual predation including stalking by a relatively even rate of men and women.
That sounds like it all comes pretty close to “always a man”.
that’s being penetrated, I think it doesn’t include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
Right, in many municipalities it’s impossible for a woman to be charged with rape for forcing someone to have sex with them through coercive means. Until that is no longer the case “men rape more than women” is like saying “you’re more likely to starve without food.” No shit, because definitionally woman legally cannot be charged with rape for raping.
You see how that skews the data, right? Sure “it’s all men” if you don’t count the women, why would that surprise anyone?
those cases are not relevant here. the data we’re talking about is not skewed. they cover all these other situations independent of municipality. also these are not numbers on reported cases (they’re included in the study) but estimated actual numbers.
With how unlikely men are to report (or sometimes, they don’t even realize they have been raped), I’m not sure how they can accurately estimate.
In any case, making it a gendered issue and lumping me, a victim, in with the perpetrators simply because I was born with a penis, and lumping my rapists in with the victims because they were born with vaginas, isn’t what I call “cool.” I’d much prefer if we made it a victims VS victimizers thing, rather than a men VS women thing, personally.
Furthermore this whole “women can’t rape men” thing needs to be fixed. I simply will not have the conversation about “who rapes who more” until it is fixed, by acknowledging it as a legitimate law I am erasing my own experiences and enabling others to do so.
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Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story.
How’s that relevant? It looks at one year and within that year the number of rape/made-to-penetrate victims is roughly equal for men and women. Unless there was something unusual happening that year or the same men are made to penetrate more often then women get raped, then if you extend the timeframe the numbers should change similarly for men and women.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong.
From the 2011 study in the Results section:
For men, the lifetime prevalence of being made to penetrate a perpetrator was an estimated 6.7% (>7.6 million men), while an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey.
wow, your argument really becomes impenetrable once you concede to "unless"es and “if” and "should"s.
there is an extended timeline. it’s called lifetime. and it tells a different story.
about the stats: thanks for finding it, I mixed the numbers and was looking for the 1.6% … anyway, looking for lifetime numbers, if you compare women who have been raped vs men who were raped and made to penetrate combined, the numbers add up to 19.3% of women vs 1.7+6.7 = 8.4% of men assuming zero overlap. that’s still more than double the rate of men.
in the same section for sexual violence other than rape, women’s rates nearly double men’s in lifetime numbers. again for some reason much closer in the 12 months preceding.
sexual coercion: 12.5% vs 5.8% lifetime (more than double) and not that close in the 12 months as other categories, 2% vs 1.3% (1.5x approximately)
etc etc…
I don’t know what the fuck happened between 2010 and 2011 but the numbers for that year do not reflect lifetime experiences of people at all. it makes no sense to disregard the extended timeline and instead use the snippet to extrapolate.
The share may differ - I’m not aware of it being equal and you bring up interesting stats right there - but regardless, men can absolutely be victims of all kinds of abuse, and we have to treat it seriously.
Yes, men forced to do what they don’t like or coerced to have sex is rape, and same for women.
Some American jurisdictions can’t even properly report a male victim of rape or sexual assault because their software is hard-coded to assign the victim as female and the perp as male.
Plus, the vast majority of men have been brainwashed into thinking that it is impossible for a woman to rape a man. So many of them don’t even see their rape as a rape, and frequently blame themselves.
And for the cherry on top, male rape victims can and frequently are forced to pay child support to their rapist if a child is conceived, thereby further traumatizing them. This happens even if the male victim was a minor - upon their 18th birthday they are hit with tens of thousands in arrears, and face jail time if they cannot immediately begin paying. Imagine - jailing a rape victim for the product of their rape!!
Think of how this would go down if the genders were swapped, and then ask yourself: why isn’t it going down like that as it currently is?
Because men don’t matter. Because men are trivially disposable. Because if men cannot provide something of value, they are worse than useless: they are a threat to society and need to be violently coerced into being useful. It’s why so many men are saying, “thanks, but no thanks” to the various “traditional” societal expectations of them (career, marriage, and even relationships entirely), and are going their own way. And I don’t blame them one bit.
I follow you, until the last part.
“Men don’t matter”, “women don’t matter” - those statements often seem to imply that the other gender is dominant and treats the other as disposable. This is not true - both men and women heavily suffer from bias, discrimination, and abuse - both in their own ways.
Traditional expectations hurt everybody, men and women, and should be thrown out the window. This includes a traditional concept that men are always perpetrators but not victims of abuse, among other things - something that is still commonly ignored, sometimes out of genuine ignorance, sometimes in bad faith.
“women don’t matter”
I have never heard that, anywhere within the last half a century. A statement like that would be seen as misogyny of the highest order, and would have the speaker publicly crucified on the altar of public opinion.
I mean, sure - it might be uttered in dark, hidden, ChristoFascist corners, but that isn’t spoken anywhere in public like the statement “kill all men” is widely lauded and celebrated by female supremacists.
Traditional expectations hurt everybody, men and women,
Then why have women been allowed to disgorge almost all of theirs, while men are being constantly nailed to the wall for theirs?
Women have been able to nearly completely release the “homemaker” status (yay! - honestly), but a man who wants to be a homemaker will nearly always remain a life-long bachelor. Having a prestigious, well-paying career (or, at least, the potential for one) is nearly always a woman’s first consideration in a man.
If a career-oriented man can (and frequently do) wife up some minimum-wage barista with oodles of student loans, why do career women almost always only look above their current economic level for mates? Because that is a reinforcement of traditional expectations.
Things along the lines of “women don’t matter” are commonly spoken by feminists much the same way you said a similar thing about men - as a statement that this gender group is a victim of modern society.
You wouldn’t hear “men don’t matter” in another context, either.
And I’m not saying that the pressure of traditional expectations is equal on women vs men, I don’t have what it takes to compare, so I won’t even try. I just state they hurt everyone, and you don’t have to sink one to raise the other.
Things along the lines of “women don’t matter” are commonly spoken by feminists
And yet - facts and evidence. In a western society, those are severely lacking from their argument, whereas the flip side is bleeding out everywhere. Hell, a saucy jaunt through any dating service - online or meatworld - is a severe cognitive dissonance to anyone trying to shill the “women don’t matter” bullshit, as beyond the top-2% of men, women have ALL the power in the dating world.
I just thank the fates that I left the dating scene behind me almost three decades ago. From what I can see, things have gotten much, much worse for men since then, and it was already horrid back then.
Then there is the gender sentencing gap in the legal system, which is three times larger than the wealth sentencing gap, and seven times larger than the racial sentencing gap. And no, this is taking into account the exact same crime with the exact same damages.
Yes, in the dating sphere women do wield more power. They, however, are also more common victims of stalking, more commonly chased by men they never asked for.
Sentencing gap is also very real.
But then there’s a pay gap, lower representation in politics (and also patriarchal traditions of diplomacy requiring high-ranking female politicians to show themselves as rough and cold to uphold their image), the common expectation to bear and rise children almost singlehandedly (despite also having to work full-time), etc. etc.
Women still face many real issues, and so do men. It’s just that men’s rights is a newer concept and it takes a lot of effort to overcome things that are sometimes as basic as the right to refuse sex.
So basically, “not all men and not all women” should have been the slogan in the first place.
So basically, “not all men and not all women” should have been the slogan in the first place.
Yes. That is a very even and equal statement that properly balances the reality of the situation.
But equality was never their goal. That’s why those who have rationally and logically studied the ideology call the practitioners female supremacists, and are likely to call themselves egalitarianists.
Oddly defensive response you have.
guys always is an embellishment. it’s almost funny that not all men became not always men. obviously not always men but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
Most men never report, or if they do it’s ignored. I’ve only told one person irl about the 2x it’s happened to me (both times I was forced by women btw, how’s that for “it’s always men” hmm?)
MAYBE if whenever we claim “it’s all men” or “it’s always men” or some such sentiment “it always devolves into a discussion about how it’s not all men,” MAYBE it’s time to stop doing that so the conversation can fucking progress? Nah let’s keep up the tribalism, it’s more fun to sow division than actually work on the issue at hand. Ffs.
I think it’s more that as a non rapist I don’t really take it personally when women talk about concerns about the general attitude they receive from men.
As a non-rapist, I’m sick of constantly being seen as a high-risk individual just for having a penis despite dedicating a lot of attention to consent and being generally a highly empathetic person.
People who know me well trust me and see me as a very safe and gentle person - but in the outside world, I’m equated with rapists around a random trait.
well yeah. are you suggesting women should just trust you because you seem nice? their interactions with men from the moment they first set foot out their door suggests otherwise. to them you are high risk until they know you. you admit that once people know you they do trust you do why are you being so offended that people who don’t know you don’t? they shouldn’t.
you shouldn’t trust any woman that she won’t do anything bad to you either, but the fact remains that you’re in much less of a risk in that regard than a random woman around a random man. the mere notion that this is in any way an equivalent risk is ridiculous.
The thing is, the amount of fear displayed against men is disproportional to the actual risk they pose. This probably has cultural roots, as awareness of such risks turned into an overreaction.
More and more research comes out showing women are fully capable of abusive behavior and display it much more often that we’ve come to believe, yet as little light is shed on this in the public eye, women are still perceived as much more safe, which isn’t true either.
And besides, “men” are too big and diverse of a group to reasonably tie to any possible behavior.
I specifically noted that I don’t believe in any essential differences between men and women. this is all societal, and patriarchy plays a big role not only in the predation of women but also men and the subsequent lack of reporting.
but in the current society women are safer than men. I have never set foot out my door and considered the possibility of being sexually harassed. women do it every time, and no, not just because our perceptions are skewed, but because we have different experiences.
this is anecdotal because i can’t do studies. most of the time defenses are put up by women because they actually go through something. not because they start life that way.
And I specifically meant to say we gain ever increasing knowledge that women are not safer in many regards - not just inherently, but overall. While brute-force attacks against men are less common, harassment, coercion, mental abuse and manipulations are rampant, and are weaponized against everyone, including strangers. (With that being said, some women, especially armed, do engage in direct physical abuse, and men can use mental one).
And I wonder what part of fears average woman faces is personal experience vs culture and upbringing. Same events can be interpreted in many different ways depending on how you are preconditioned, and if we’d train men to be wary of women, we’d certainly see more fears spread around. (Mind you, I do not say women do not face real and clear instances of abuse; some do!)
Well maybe it takes being raped by two different woman before you start feeling bad about being called a rapist for existing with penis despite being a victim. In any case your feelings are not universal and you don’t get to minimize my experiences and tell me how to feel about being categorized with the aggressors while the people who raped ME are categorized with the “only victims who can do no wrong” gender.
this doesn’t at all follow my comment so I assume you replied by accident. you’re just airing grievances, which is your right, but it’s a non sequitur.
I think it’s more that as a non rapist I don’t really take it personally when women talk about concerns about the general attitude they receive from men.
Basically what I’m saying is, maybe you don’t take it personally because you haven’t been raped by women before, but I do take it personally because I have.
The numbers are also suppressed for men because we are not believed or taken seriously whereas women are typically believed by default.
I mean even considering that. if we magically learned the real numbers today there should still be a grand canyon between them. if you think it’s any close you’re either fooling yourself or biased by personal trauma.
just as a note: the argument I’m making is not based on any essential characteristics of men vs women. I’m not arguing men are biologically coded to SA more or whatever. it’s about societal conditions. conditions which, by the way, contribute to the problem you’re talking about.
What ratio do you think has any meaning? What if the meaning is just that men have a higher “success rate” for just being better at it or even just being scarier. What if it just means men are more often consenting where they otherwise shouldn’t be?
I don’t remember calling anything meaningless so I don’t get your first question.
also if men have a better success rate that makes them more of a problem, don’t really get what the argument is there
also don’t understand what you mean consenting where they shouldn’t be. you either consent or don’t. if you’re alluding to coercion that’s not consent and it shouldn’t be named as such. otherwise I don’t get what you mean at all.
but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
The CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
We’re not the ones living in fantasy land – you are, by either ignorance or malice. Which is your source of gender bigotry and misandry?
