Come to think of it, the Jedi are kinda dicks, they prevented anakin becoming a master despite his obvious talented skills in saber combat and his power in the force.
Not to mention, lore wise they let mundi have relations with his family where as it would’ve been a kick out for anakin.
Lastly, the jedi were sorta arrogant for thinking that nothing was wrong or that they were perfect despite having literal counterarguments from rebellious masters, Qui Gonn being a good example of somebody smelling the bullshit that the jedi were involved in.
So my fellow sith lords and jedi knights, what say you?
He clearly proved that he wasn’t ready to be a master - it’s not like a martial arts rank that you mostly just get because you’re skilled, they also want you to be able to embody the ideals they stand for (flawed as they may be).
They certainly could have trained him better, but that makes them idiots, not assholes. But first and foremost, their most important failure was not detecting that Palpatine was a sith.
Mundi had a special exemption because his species was going extinct, and it was always supposed to be about attachment anyway - it’s plausible that Mundi was able to produce offspring without personal attachment. Anakin could never have done it like that.
Martial arts ranks aren’t even all about skill. Typically getting to a black belt or equivalent is done by skill demonstration but raising ranks after that is more community involvement, school upkeep, teaching, etc.
I don’t know if it’s cannon anymore, but mundi definitely didn’t have attachment towards his children.
He was abusive and completely detached
The Jedi code teaching students that emotions are dangerous, is about as useful as teaching abstinence in sex ed.
Stop teaching people to ignore attachments and focus on dealing with them in a healthy way instead.
Strictly speaking, it’s less like teaching abstinence in sex ed and more like teaching abstinence in a monastery. The Jedi aren’t telling this to the general galactic population, they’re telling a select group of warrior monk wizard diplomats trained from toddlerhood.
More than that, they’re just stupid.
Here’s just one example of dumb Jedi stuff. I just rewatched the prequels and it occurred to me, that Anakin didn’t really suddenly turn to the dark side because his mom died. He turned to the dark side because he didn’t have any friends to check him when he’s being a douche bag… The dude literally has nobody to talk to except for Padma, and he’s forbidden from pursuing a romantic relationship with her, which is super frustrating. This is a scenario destined for failure. What he really needs are some friends he can talk to and vent at about his shitty situation.
Here’s the weird thing though, remember that scene where Yoda is training a whole class of little padawans? Those padawans at least have a cohort, they have a group they can bond with and lean on as they grow up and continue their training. So if that’s the way they run things, where is Anakin’s cohort? Why is he isolated? Anakin has a single person as his mentor, boss, teacher, therapist, dad and only friend, that’s not really healthy. And when that one person is gone for an extended period, that leaves Anakin with absolutely no support structure and a lot of temptation to make bad choices, this is setting him up for failure. Cause let’s be honest, he’s a teen, making bad choices is what they do.
The whole reason they didn’t want to train him in the first movie was that he’s too old.
Anakin shouldn’t have been a master. Being good at fighting doesn’t make you a good leader. The Jedi aren’t Klingons.
i don’t think it’s so much that they’re actually the baddies as it is that they became too dogmatic and process-oriented to be able to do the good that they were trying to do. on the micro scale they were too inflexible with their rules to always do the right thing, and on the macro scale they could bend the rules however they wanted in the name of The Greater Good. protecting the Jedi order so that they could hypothetically do good later was more important than admitting to mistakes and exposing themselves to criticism to do tangible good in the moment. in less words, they meant well and had their heads pretty far up their asses. the Dooku episodes of Tales of the Jedi demonstrate this very well
whether or not this is just the Jedi Order or the larger light-side-user community is up for debate. a lot of people point to the prophecy of balance being brought to the force and say that that required an equal number of Jedi and Sith, and that idea seems to have seeped into Disney canon, but at least originally Lucas seemed to intend for the light side to represent balance and for the dark side to be a corruption of that, in which case the Jedi Order being assholes meant they also weren’t really Jedi to begin with
another commente argues that of course they’re assholes because they’re a religion, but i’d argue that they’re assholes because they’re an organized religion. if being a Jedi is about harmony with all life and the force, as opposed to using it and abusing it, you can’t create Jedi by using and abusing life forms the way a beaurocratic institution invariably does. it’s not a coincidence that all of the great Jedi heroes throughout SW are either deviants within or otherwise estranged from the order. standing up for people and doing the right thing almost always involves sticking it to The Man, and the Jedi Order were The Man
100%
The Jedi weren’t “good” they were the absent of evil and that will never be enough for a just society because evil will exploit it eventually.
I’ve always considered, seperate to this larger discussion, that the Jedi are saying one thing and believing another uncritically. They want to bring balance to the force… By eliminating the sith.
Balance. A state of equilibrium. Notoriously not very well known for existing in a system where one of two elements has been removed.
“Only a sith deals in absolutes”. Complete unthinking hipocracy in the name of the light.
“You were supposed to bring balance to the force”
Here’s the prophecy:
Only through sacrifice of many Jedi will the Order cleanse the sin done to the nameless. The danger of the past is not past, but sleeps in an egg. When the egg cracks, it will threaten the galaxy entire. When the Force itself sickens, past and future must split and combine. A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored.
Ultimate balance in the force really seems like it very well could mean “no more Sith and no more Jedi” to me.
I think if you only watch the original trilogy, Jedi are the good, pure, saviors of the galaxy and rebels of the established order and the sith are evil overlords who rule by their own design.
When you watch the original you see how the Jedi appear good and balanced, but over the trilogy become less focused on ruling by laws and more on feelings. Clearly bypassing their own laws as it suits those in charge.
Subsequent tv series continuously adds to that mindset that the Jedi were flawed, and sometimes outright dangerous.
I always saw the Jedi assuming the chosen one myth was about the Jedi becoming the absolute rulers so egotistical, they were destined to fail.
And as flawed as the new trilogy is, it follows that path, leading to Rey becoming a true balanced force user, neither Jedi or sith. And both have seemingly been destroyed otherwise. So Rey is really the chosen one
Well I mean, what did you expect with space samurai?
The Jedi order is 15% vague Eastern Philosophy that George Lucas half-remembered. 75% of cannon events trying to ret-con this philosophy into the media. And 10% of fan wishful thinking.
They barely do anything in the prequels to give motive to Anikin’s rebellion. The only times it’s seriously covered in the Disney cannon is a few episodes of Clone Wars where the council abandons Asoka, and some plot-lines that were teased in a canceled show.
The Clone Wars was before Disney. But yes.
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yea, the jedi were ideological conservatives.
and that meme where Qui-Gon jinn brings back both Anakin and his mom instead of just Anakin?
is a very legitimate point.
the Jedi council chose to keep a jedi’s mother in slavery instead of reuniting their family, freedom which would have come at a truly insignificant cost to the council.
If you want to get all philosophical (which is probably a bit too far, it’s George Lucas after all), you could make the argument that the downfall of the Republic is an example of a complacent, non-responsive governmental elite failing to react or even just recognize obvious problems.
The Jedi are just warrior monks and symptomatic for that. They didn’t bring her with them, because they don’t care about people that much. They are above the population and act more like demigods.
this is exactly my argument.
I completely agree with everything you’ve written and I even suspect George does, despite his disinclination to discuss it.
a complacent aristocracy hoisted by their own failing traditions and impotent bureaucracy.
Not to mention the Jedi take younglings for training while the Sith simply wait for them to make a choice.
Being a master isn’t just about skill, it’s also about wisdom and experience, perhaps even more than skill. It’s perfectly reasonable that they wouldn’t want to elevate him to that rank yet, given his behavior.
+++ They fucked up many things during the clone wars/prequel period of time, and suffered from hubris and arrogance no doubt. But they were right about that one thing.
They’re a religion, of course they’re assholes.
According to this ancient documentary… Yes. Yes they are.
Well if it’s like real life yes. Everyone is an asshole.
