Why YSK: because what seems like equal situation from surface isn’t always equal opportunity for all. And even when equal measure of help is provided, it might not be equally useful.
Every time I see this quaint but misleading image reposted it’s necessary to make the same comment: the words attached to each image are do not exclusively represent those images. “Equality” could apply to all but the first; nobody uses “equity” this way; and most people use “justice” to refer to criminal justice and punishment.
Plenty of people use equity this way. Maybe not in your circles, but it’s not a new definition, it’s been around for decades. Millions of people in the US alone do not equate the criminal Justice system with the concept of Justice. Perhaps you should recognize that your perceptions are not able to be applied to the entire population. If you ever find yourself using “nobody” or “everybody” and you have no definitive data backing that up, I would recommend re-examining your biases, because what you appear to be doing is attempting to normalize your beliefs while otherizing the beliefs of others who do not share your view.
How would you label the different concepts?
It’s an infographic for children…? I think it’s meant to be simple.
I’m sure 18+ people should already have a more nuanced view of what those words mean. And if they don’t I’m sure there are other materials they can peruse to help them understand.
Apparently not simply enough for people to understand it’s point here.
The OP comment did not criticize the comic for being too simple. He called it misleading. You’re both arguing with a strawman.
Someone disagreeing with something doesn’t mean they didn’t understand it. It’s a really poisonous mindset that hampers intellectual discourse and development.
It’s not misleading. If you can explain it better in an easier way by all means…
I guess that meme I keep seeing that’s asks “did we leave all the stupid people on reddit?” Was wrong.
Y’all can’t understand a few simple metaphorical images that looks like it was designed for children to understand, and are going all out in contriving obtuse reasons for why it doesn’t work or isn’t realistic.
Yes, of course if this was real she could walk to the other side, but it’s a fucking metaphor.
Arguing about the metaphors and analogies instead of actual topics? Saw plenty of those during college, especially when the guy in question was being a contrarian just to ‘stick it to the man’ and look cool to their buddies.
I thought working adults would grow out of it - nah, we’re all dumb children inside, including me.
I see it all the time. A certain demographic seemingly cannot comprehend metaphors and jf it isnt literally perfect in every way they attack it. I think really they know they wont look good admitting they have issues with the message of equality/equity so they attack the method of delivery instead
It’s just such a bad metaphor. Not simple, bad.
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I like the boxes and fence one more, this just feels super-contrived
But that one always brings out the smug responses about how they shouldn’t be watching the game for free, totally (and purposefully) missing the point
The girl could literally just walk to the other side of the tree, there’s no actual barrier. This one is super ham-fisted because it can spark the wrong side of the debate.
it can spark the wrong side of the debate.
any discussion of the topic would though, because those who oppose the basic idea of equality, let alone equity or justice, know only how to derail and/or project, they are not interested in having a sincere discussion, because they whole heartedly believe that some people are worth less than others, and they will justify that in whatever way makes sense to them because in their mind, they’re all that matters.
True justice would be them watering the tree or something. That dude has been giving to these little shits the whole time. Let it be The Getting Tree for once.
My favorite is the meme edit where they just chop off everyone’s legs so that they end up at the same height below the fence.
Fatality!
I like owning a home because I finally got some equality.
Equality should be in protection of rights. People are not equal, and never will be. They should have equal rights, though.
Steve Vai is a better guitarist than I am. He shouldn’t have his fingers broken so that we both have equal ability to play the guitar.
Trying to make people equal in every way is evil. It only brings the best in every field down to the level of the worst, since there’s no way to bring everyone up to the level of the best in every field.
That’s not the point of equity. The point is to compensate for disadvantages people couldn’t prevent and can’t fix on their own. Stairs are equal. They work the same way for everyone. But someone in a wheelchair can’t climb stairs.
But you can reframe it. People don’t have equal mobility but everyone has an equal right to access a place, so you have stairs and ramps. You can’t make everything a ramp or stair to create equality.
That’s not how equity works in practice. It doesn’t examine anyone’s actual capabilities or disadvantages. They bucket large groups of people into categories they deem worthy to receive resources, despite their actual need. Every person has their individual story, challenges, and priveleges yet equity assumes otherwise, that you deserve compensation based on the group you were assigned to, not what you actually need.
That’s just not true. That’s how a person would feel if equity didn’t specifically help them.
In practice that’s equity programs work by hurtingsomeone. Some California schools cut advanced math classes because they weren’t diverse enough, or it was contributing to an educational gap, or some bullshit. Equity requires adding burden to someone, it may be in an attempt at fairness, but that doesn’t make it right.
In practice that’s equity programs work by hurtingsomeone
[citation needed]
Equality people: “Let’s fund these people who are objectively poor, they are disadvantaged and need it.”.
Equity people: “let’s fund people part of this group I can clearly identify by looking at them. They are likely to be disadvantaged.”
Not sure why everyone is downvoting any opinion that isn’t “give minorities all the available resources!”.
It should not be: you need x% of your classroom seats to go to minorities. That’s silly because talented and driven people will be sent away to make space. It should be more like: “you must provide an avenue to help those who can prove disadvantaged status to take extra classes and then reapply to your program.” These classes could be online or whatever to make it as easy as possible for someone with less means but still driven to succeed have a way to better themselves.
“let’s fund people part of this group I can clearly identify by looking at them. They are likely to be disadvantaged.”
Uh… they don’t identify by looking at them you braindead fool. They do means testing. As in - actually seeing if they need it.
Firstly, be respectful.
There is a huge range of equity implementations in the US. My company, for example, has not done any “means testing” when recruiting for racial equity. Nor when it donates to blanket racial programs. There was no means testing when internships were offered to high school students of particular demographics.
When you’re so used to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
Lmaooo the only people who use that California talking point are people who have never been inside of a school in California. They aren’t cutting math classes they are offering alternatives to high level math courses like calculus, stats, and data science. Explain to me how that’s burdening anyone??
I think your problem is that you think that something will be taken away. Try to think in terms of the giving. Steve is not going to have anything taken away. Someone will have access to guitars that wouldn’t otherwise. Steve will be fine.
What if resources are limited? There is only one guitar but 3 people want one.
Then instead of letting the super advantaged, super rich take all the resources we should work on getting and producing more. Which probably starts with taking from the people who are hoarding them all.
At birth there are situations that give people advantages that have nothing to do with ability. These advantages are systemic, where certain people will have better access to opportunity (apples) than others. The goal should be that the opportunities are equal so no one has a head start. The best apple picker will pick more apples instead of the person born with an orchard and apple picking machinery who very well may be a shit apple picker.
For your example, we’d end up with the best musicians becoming popular, not the ones where their parent could afford to give them private lessons since childhood and had industry connections to make them big where they wouldn’t otherwise.
It’s not about equality of outcomes, it’s about equality of opportunity. No one should start a race with a head start because then you don’t know who the best runner is. Everyone should start equally and everyone should have equal access to the same shoes, equipment, and practice opportunity, otherwise we can’t see who’s actually best without an advantage.
Why is important to see who is “best”? That’s only important in sports, those which are not actually important.
The comment above was about having the best guitarists. Regardless, why wouldn’t it be important to see who’s best? Why is it better to see who has the most advantages that weren’t earned? The argument for capitalism is that whoever can do the best gets rewarded the most. It’s fundamentally flawed because capitalism promotes creating barriers and ensuring the playing field isn’t even though.
No matter what the situation, having the best people doing the jobs will create the best outcomes for the most people. In what way is this not desirable?
According to the picture, increase the supply of guitars.
Nobody is advocating for breaking fingers. Following the example set by the image, if someone were to have, for example, issues with their hands, then they should be provided tools to help them play the guitar. Do you think someone with a disability shouldn’t be allowed to do things even though tools to let them do those things exist? Keeping up such barriers is how we miss out on amazing talents hampered by obstacles that could be overcome provided adequate access.
I think what he was saying, but slightly missed, was, if both people needed guitar classes, we should not give the guy with the hand issues the only available seat.
Really though, if we just spend a bit more on education, there could be seats for everyone! So maybe the last picture could be fertilizing the tree to make it bigger or something.
There is no taking away. Someone will have access to guitars that wouldn’t otherwise. Someone somewhere let a great player hear a guitar, see how it’s played, maybe even gave them their first guitar. it’s about giving not taking away.
You entirely missed the point of this picture.
This picture isn’t about breaking Steve’s fingers so you can both play shitty guitar. It’s about making sure you can both access a guitar and lessons to learn.
The equality picture would be shoving a guitar in each of your hands and a coupon for lessons, while failing to address that you live 2 hours away from the teacher while he lives next door.
Eta: equity would be providing you with a free buss ride to the teachers house 2 hours away. This gives you all the tools to get guitar lessons, but, you might not be able to take advantage of this because a 5 hour commitment isn’t the same as a 1 hour 5 minute commitment and you lose out on opportunity cost. You get free guitar lessons and a ride, but the system is broken. Justice is fixing the system so that there’s enough guitar teachers within a reasonable distance. Like say, making sure that no one is more than 20 minutes from a guitar teacher.
It’s about making sure you can both access a guitar and lessons to learn.
We are already trying to do that. It’s called equality. Also known as equality of opportunity, where everyone has access to acquire a guitar and guitar lessons. How does “justice” augment this?
You failed at reading the rest of the comment.
The picture misses the millions of people who are too poor to afford a ladder and don’t belong to one of the groups targeted by the equity crowd.
This image isn’t about making people equal, it’s about making systems equal…
You’ll notice the Steve Vai apple picker (left) never has a reduction in apple access.
Your suggestion some harm might come to Steve Vai doesn’t make sense, he can access apples as well as ever
I posted this to a comment further down, but thought I should post it up here:
At birth there are situations that give people advantages that have nothing to do with ability. These advantages are systemic, where certain people will have better access to opportunity (apples) than others. The goal should be that the opportunities are equal so no one has a head start. The best apple picker will pick more apples instead of the person born with an orchard and apple picking machinery who very well may be a shit apple picker.
For your example, we’d end up with the best musicians becoming popular, not the ones where their parent could afford to give them private lessons since childhood and had industry connections to make them big where they wouldn’t otherwise.
It’s not about equality of outcomes, it’s about equality of opportunity. No one should start a race with a head start because then you don’t know who the best runner is. Everyone should start equally and everyone should have equal access to the same shoes, equipment, and practice opportunity, otherwise we can’t see who’s actually best without an advantage.
Why are you arguing against something literally no one said? How is this graphic trying to ‘make everyone equal in every way’? How is the person on the left of the graphic disadvantaged in any way? (That last one answers your idiotic ‘breaking fingers’ point)
“Hmmm, he’s in a wheelchair so we’ll make things equal by chopping off your legs.”
You make it seem like correcting the tree in the last panel hurts the advantaged girl on the left. It does not.
Wtf
Thats how one would describe it in an unhelpfully cynical way, lol
Putting supports on trees weakens them. The swaying makes them stronger.
Ha, I didn’t even notice those. So many memes straight up are shitty for one reason or other.
Handicapped people might disagree
Trees aren’t handicapped people. They’re trees.
you know this infographic isn’t literally talking about trees, right?
It’s talking about children robbing a disabled person for their apples?
That must be it
I do but the last one says it’s fixing the system when it’s propping up the tree and making it weak. Bad metaphor.
Holy in shit, I better… I just need to go. Now. Unrelated…
Big, if true
I rest my case
What do you mean?
They mean they benefit from the way things currently work, so the mere suggestion that the system needs to change in order for others to benefit too makes them so anxious they need to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to justify to themsleves why the idea is “no good”
I get you’re coming from a good place, but we’re disabled, not handicapped
Just a language thing, sorry. In my country this word does not have any negative connotation.
I think it’s much more likely that it does have negative connotations (especially since the etymology of the word itself is negative, there is no way around that. Never mind the stigma it carries), but no one has pointed it out to you until this point.
But now you know, and since language matters, please just say the word and in future call us what we are - disabled people.
I genuinely have multiple friends who use that word about themselves. It isn’t negative unless people perceive so.
First of all, thanks for proving you’ve not bothered reading any of the information I linked, because it clearly states otherwise:
So King Henry VII passed some landmark legislation. He proclaimed that begging in the streets be legal for people with disabilities. So into the streets, with their “cap in hand”, went King Henry’s disabled veterans, to beg for money”. So with cap in hand referred to beggars, or people of no value in society.
The term is also used in horseracing and wagering. It measures the superiority of one contestant over another. This is the belief that one participant is stronger or better than another. The word “handicap” is rating one thing better or worse than another.
It appears that “handicapped” seems to have begun to describe a wide range of disadvantages, including social, economic and even moral standards. The website by Arika Okrent (2015) reports: “Handicap began to be applied to physical and mental differences in the early 1900s, when the new fields of sociology and social work started looking at people in terms of their place in society as a whole”. The term was used to describe people viewed as physically or mentally flawed.Second of all, disabled people reclaiming a word for themselves, no matter how friendly you are with them, still doesn’t give you the right to use it to describe the rest of us (or at all except for if your friends specifically asked you to, and I’d honestly consider whether they actually want to be called that, or that they know that you would react as badly as you are here, so don’t bother to correct you because they have better things to spend their energy on than educating a “friend” who would use them as debate tools to prove how not ableist you are. Hint: doing that is ableist), just like you don’t go around using the N word or the F and T slurs, all of which have been reclaimed by their own community but are still derogatory when used by outsiders.
So like I told that other person:
you can choose to be respectful and make the tiniest adjustment to your vocabulary, or you can choose to continue to use a harmful term despite now knowing full well that it is harmful, proving to me and others just how little of a shit you give about disabled people.I’ve done my part, the choice is yours, and you’re clearly choosing to prioritise your own ego over respecting disabled people on the most basic level.
Which I guess only leaves me feeling sorry for your “friends” (or should I say tokens?)
My point is that words are part of languages which change very fluidly, and you could make the same argument for hundreds of other words.
If the word isn’t considered bad by anyone hearing it or anyone it describes, nothing is wrong with it. Many meanings are different between your language and mine, even though they sound alike or share some etymology.
You can’t criticize people for using the word handicapped after it has been pushed as the politically correct word for decades.
It’s still the mainstream politically correct word in the English speaking West. Using disabled can land you in hot water in a professional or political environment.
That’s a pile of bullshit so big it could only come from an abled person who hasn’t spent a second of their life listening to actual disabled people.
So I can, and I will.
And people can then choose to be respectful and make the tiniest adjustment to their vocabulary, or they can choose to continue to use a harmful term despite now knowing full well that it is harmful, proving to others just how little of a shit they give about disabled people.
The choice is yours.
Putting supports on trees weakens them.
Just like giving free hand-outs to people.
GIviNG FoOD to HUnGry pEople Makes thEm weakeR
Give a man to fish feed him for a day… teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime.
People like you want to keep a group of people endlessly indebted, while the rest of us want that group to stand on their own.
The people in the infographic are literally working for their own food.
Infographic is a strong word for this meme
Semantics.
Give me a break. There are no solutions put forward by people that argue against welfare other than “bootstraps.” Or even worse “let the weak die.” It has nothing to do with helping people grow. Hell even when solutions focused on growth are put forward to help growth in new environments (training coal miners to do different work for example) the arguments become something about heritage or family history in mining. It always seems like it’s opposition for the sake of opposition.
The main argument against welfare always seems to stem from a desire to have less taxation as they believe welfare support is stealing from them. A.k.a being selfish. There is never any thought about what to do to help those in need.
Stand on your own, they say to the starving person, put some effort into your appearance they say to the homeless person, just stop being so miserable they say to the depressed person
And those people who get themselves out of poverty almost universally state that building a work ethic and an ability to stand on their own is how they got to where they were, not through endless hand-outs and being coddled. Dependency is just like any other addiction and some people rather see these people endlessly fail than actually try to help them move up in the world and make it on their own.
You are an enabler, plain and simple.
The apples in the picture are jobs that pay enough for food and a house within a daily commute of that job.
Not everyone has access to that. That access is necessary before the Teaching aspect can be effective. Teaching only works if the lesson is usable with the resources available.
The ladders are teaching programs tailored to the resources available in that community.
The adjusted tree is updated communities with better resources - better transit, better grocery availability, better childcare options, better school options, better medical options.
This has been “Children’s books explained in painful detail.” Tune in next time for Goodnight Moon. I’m joking. I don’t know that the heck goodnight moon is about.
Okay cool, so let’s raise wages so everyone can afford to buy their own food.
Let’s just give everyone a million dollars because money is clearly an infinite resource!1!!! Brilliant! /s
Equality is letting anyone gather apples on any side of the tree.
I don’t see a fence…
Maybe the real point of the comic is that the girl on the right is really stupid, so we should tilt the tree instead of having her lazy ass move the ladder.
Yet sometimes you can’t choose where you come from or where you stand. Even if you let people stand where they want, some have larger hands or are taller and stronger so can gather more apples.
OSHA gonna have a word about how they’re using those ladders…
The Justice pic: a man yells at the kids stealing apples from his garden, while the kids are running away, loosing all the apples.
unfortunately the apple tree is the proletariat
We could also just shoot the kulak on the left and take back the apples she stole from the people’s tree
Ah yes, the communist solution.
The revolutionary solution, not necessarily communist. Like Boston tea party and what followed
Ah yes, the communist boston tea party, French Revolution and … I dunno I don’t feel like putting more effort into this comment
This is one of my least favorite Rush songs…
Key takeaway: Always blame the system
I appreciate the image, but “justice” as it’s described from the image, isn’t what people want progressively.
I used to agree with the picture, everyone should be tested fairly.
Expectations are a bit different though. Execution of what I’ve seen the public want is the Equality picture, but parties switch ladders.
Modern equality isn’t about fairness, it’s about your turn to benefit from the unfairness that’s always inherent in the system. We don’t want to change the system as much as we want our turn.
Life is never fair. The only things that change are perspectives and volume.
Execution of what I’ve seen the public want is the Equality picture, but parties switch ladders.
Nah, that’s just how work towards Equity is portrayed by those who are already standing on the ladder that reaches the tree. I.e., a bunch of fear-mongering about how giving someone else a taller ladder will somehow shrink their own ladder.
Saying “life is never fair” is basically just saying we can’t build a taller ladder, so the only (implicitly unacceptable) solution is to swap ladders.
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anarcho primitavism: climb tree oo oo aa aa
