This is in regard to Lemmy.world blocking piracy communities from other instances. This post is not about whether you agree with the decision. It’s about how the admins informed their users.
A week ago Lemmy.world announced their Discord server. This wasn’t very well received (about 25% downvotes, which is rather bad compared to other announcements). The comments on that post were turned off, presumably to avoid backlash.
Before that, announcements about the instance used to be posted to !lemmyworld@lemmy.world. This time, the information was posted on the Discord server instead.
I don’t agree with this. Having to use a proprietary platform to participate in an open-source one goes against the very purpose for me, especially when the new solution isn’t really an improvement (as before the information about the platform was closer to it).
Edit: Corrected the announcements community name.
Update: Lemmy.world finally released an announcement and promised they would inform about similar actions and gather feedback in advance in future.
I agree 100%. If they are going to make an announcement about lemmy.world, they need to do it on lemmy.world. We’re not all on the Discord. I, for one, don’t want to be.
Discord is not something that is easily indexable or linkable. Which means you have to rely on other people if you aren’t part of it. This is a huge issue as anything can be faked
They absolutely should make announcements here, but I think it’s a matter of people attacking them all of the time. We have to give them a lot of credit for handling so many ddos attacks, someone really doesn’t want this place to exist. Imo, let’s give them a chance to talk about it and not make this a bigger deal than it is. This is a volunteer site and instance, not a billion dollar company so go easy.
I don’t understand what one thing has to do with the other.
No one should voice their concerns with the direction of the instance? Everyone should just be silent because the community is run by volunteers?
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Or secondarily I’d say Mastodon. They have an account but never post anything there.
Yeah seems like the mastodon account would make a lot of sense as a kind of quick and dirty feed of information, particularly when it comes to stuff that’s less “announcement” oriented. Like up down or performance issue statuses and the like.
They tried to. It was down at the time though.
How would they make a post about a lemmy.world outage on lemmy.world
It wasn’t about an outage.
One of the original intentions of posting somewhere else was about outages.
Something like “we are down so much come read about it live over at …”
Okay, but that’s not what this is about.
“why did lemmy.world mods start posting things to a discord group?” Is the implied point of the thread we are in.
Acknowledged that THIS post by them was regarding defederating the piracy group.
No, that is not the implied point. This is specifically about announcing blocking communities and instances. No one expects lemmy.world to announce it’s down on itself.
Hence they created a discord to provide up to the moment updates on features/changes of lemmy.world.
It’s BS to not announce, on lemmy.world something that affects lemmy.world.
Be open and transparent.
I don’t like that you blocked the piracy communities but I recognise that you see a reason to do so.
I’ve already begun migrating my subs to another instance because that’s the great thing about the fediverse - I can.
If you want to be the big Lemmy instance with a lot of traffic then you’re going to have to protect yourself, I get it. But at least have the balls to announce your unpopular decisions.
I happened to catch a message on Matrix from @ruud@lemmy.world that he didn’t like the way mentions work when you’re offline and lots of messages build up, but I didn’t realize that meant discord was replacing matrix, especially for community notices.
Add me to the list of folks who won’t use discord.
I’m really not happy with using Discord at all for any organisation open to outside users. We got Lemmy for posts about, well, Lemmy. We got something like Mastodon for external updates.
Use what is there.
This makes no sense to me. Did they provide a reason for choosing Discord of all things? What was wrong with making announcements on Lemmy? Why wouldn’t they choose to make announcements in another federated format in addition and not instead of lemmy? Like, I’m not super tech savvy but I’m sure they could set up an RSS-like feed to send out alerts? IDK
With my very limited understanding of it, I believe Discord was something mostly for “as we are down so much, you can get updates here if we are down”.
But still, why pick a proprietary platform?
I guess cause it is entirely separate from Lemmy, so can act as a different option.
Also it’s real time posting ( like a chat, not a post) and many people already have it.
As a secondary, it’s not a bad choice.
What would you recommend?
Another Lemmy instance would also get ddosed
Yeah, this is where I am. I’m a .world person, and I honestly think the admins have been doing a good job generally. I’m not a real Discord person, but I joined theirs after it was recommended a few times. Like you, I think using it as a backup because of the ddos attacks taking them down so much is reasonable, but they should use c/announcements as the primary communication venue. Note that there are a number of people on it who really seem to be enjoying the real time chat, and some even using the voice chat option, so it seems to be serving some people, at least.
I also think they made a potentially understandable mistake on blocking these communities, which I said at length in that thread. I’m inclined to think one issue with the overall Lemmy paradigm is that we have a lot of hobbiests as admins - people who may not have much experience with that, who don’t have legal teams, and who might be gun shy about any potential litigation. We can’t expect any person who decides to run a Lemmy instance on their laptop to have much feel for what content they’re liable for and what’s completely safe, so stuff in the grey area is going to make some people squeamish.
Matrix
I believe Discord was something mostly for “as we are down so much, you can get updates here if we are down”.
At this point they should just make a new instance for their announcements lol
Maybe they wanted something off Lemmy so that the attackers can’t target both the main and the backup, with the same system.
Isn’t this where Mastodon.world kind of comes into play? Off Lemmy but still a federated service, can even pop whatever LemmyWorld status account there in to one’s RSS readers or whatever.
Yeah I mean, LW using discord instead of a FOSS option is not a good look…
Got banned recently from their Discord server by [I’m assuming] me calling out their announcement/decision a clownery (which it actually is, because why make a announcement community when you’re not informing your userbase), ngl it’s mildly infuritating…
What even is not a good look is I didn’t really receive a notice that I got banned there…
Edit: phrasing
I’m assuming the reason would’ve been trolling. Considering the bottom of this is all you did and didn’t put a statement like “I don’t agree with this channel, I think it’s uncalled for” etc etc. although even that I would put into !support@lemmy.world
Just tagged a channel and said clownery with no activity in the discord really. Just wanted to add the additional context here and figured a SS would help too.
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What makes you think it’s “just to read announcement”. The initial post didn’t even mention announcements, nor was it the purpose of the discord. Yet that’s all you can seem to hold on to. It’s already been stated there was miscommunication on one announcement and that was that.
Do you see the issue now or do you need help?
This doesn’t even make sense because it appears you didn’t even read the original discord post or even have an understanding about it.
A) It’s not a requirement to join discord, and never was made to be.
B) Discord is of itself a community communication platform for IM.
C) Millions of people actively use discord, it’s a popular platform and easier then others like Matrix. If it was something I didn’t already use, I would’ve never joined.
Your message is filled with incorrect assumptions and it appears your unwilling to go find the answers that are even on the same page as these comments. It’s very surprising with the internet nowadays and people can’t even seem to find information that is right in front of them, yet they act like they already have the facts.
trolling
no activity in the discord really
Why would I be active in the DC when its supposedly purpose was announcements about the site and whenever this site is down? Why would you assume/expect people join in a DC server to interact?
Why would I be active in the DC when its supposedly purpose was announcements about the site and whenever this site is down?
Could you please clarify your source, the discord post as OP mentioned doesn’t read that. Lemmy.world announced their Discord server. And if you looked around the main purpose isn’t focused around announcements. It seems there was miscommunication and it wasn’t posted to lemmy, mistakes happen.
“Why would you assume/expect people join in a DC server to interact?”
That is sort of the point of Discord as a instant message community platform.
I joined the discord because:
- The internal lemmy direct messages sucks.
- I already use discord anyways.
- It’s a great way to not spam unrelated comments. etc
Why did you join?
Making announcements to somewhere you have to log in to see is the problem. You can’t see Discord chats unless You’re logged in.
There is a lot of FOSS stuff communicating over twitter… Even The Linux Foundation has a twitter account.
But lemmy.world should primarily communicate via lemmy imo…
But lemmy.world should primarily communicate via lemmy imo…
I find the same attitude holds for developers who like to hang out in real-time Matrix chat and don’t seem to use Lemmy itself very much and things like code blocks ruining greater-than and less-than slip right into release without much concern.
Even The Linux Foundation has a twitter
Because Linus Torvalds doesn’t care about the Free Software movement and user freedom. It’s why his kernel is still on GPL2.
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lemmy.world it’s not “lemmy”
Yeah, lemmy.world looks like it’s shit.
Even having the Discord server is kind of weird in and of itself I thought, you’re using one social media platform to talk about your own Social media platform. I use Discord, so it’s whatever, but wouldn’t it make sense to keep it within the Fediverse and put a “backup” communication channel on some other instance/service like Mastodon? I guess it helps in situations where lemmy.world goes down. I’ve just found myself liking Discord less and less when companies use it to make “official” announcements and end up leaving alot of people in the dark, since Discord doesn’t seem terribly user-friendly for storing long-term information.
You can find it if you know where to look and you have a dedicated announcements channel, I just don’t particularly like the format myself personally. I think my biggest problem with it is that the notification settings are so bad by default that it always feels like I’m getting inundated with notifications as soon as I join a server, so I just mute everything on a channel. I only want personal communications through Discord, I don’t particularly care to see “official” communications coming out of it.
I mean, I can see it if it was used as a backup, but yeah, using it as a primary way of communicating with people is kind of weird.
Sh.itjust.works uses matrix like any normal lemmy instance would.
Sh.itjust.works uses matrix like any normal lemmy instance would.
Why should announcements happen in a real time chat anyway? Lemmy is actually best suited for announcements.
Indeed. But if there must be a chat, it should be matrix. But I’ve read it sucks for moderation.
Well, I doubt there must be a public chat in the first place, especially when it kind of serves as a competition to the *.World products. Some form of private chat between admins: sure. Public: IMO no.
Matrix is a piece of hot garbage on the UX front. Maybe when Matrix stops sucking so hard it can take matter out of galactic core black holes it can be taken seriously as a platform.
Very reddit of them?
This gives out the impression they don’t care about lemmy being open source and decentralized but rather they are at it for a piece of the cake
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Reddit mods also work for free as volunteers. Don’t underestimate internet popularity and power over communities, not so many days ago there were stories about mastodon instances admins getting invited for talks at meta. Lemmy is an open source and decentralized alternative to reddit, using discord for announcements misses the whole point
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This whole situation is rubbing me the wrong way. I can understand the motives behind defederating even if I don’t agree but it’s been a day and the only announcement is still on Discord. Not ideal.
They needed to post it on a site that can stay up for more than 24 hours at a time.
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And then be forced to shut it back down within a week once hosting costs bleed you dry lol
I couldn’t agree more. We shouldn’t need to be somewhere else to receive announcements (especially such important ones).
Not to mention Discord’s horrible record of privacy and security. I don’t have an account and will never make one, and I’m sure many others in the fediverse will agree.
I actually just tested out the account making process, and I got asked for my phone number. No. Way.
We’re here because we care about a decentralized, open network. Aside from its confusing and busy UX, it’s not even indexable. Discord is literally a black hole for information and terrible for everyone except for Discord itself, who is doing who knows what with all of our data.
Discord is everything the fediverse stands against.
The moment I learned about defederation, I made an account on an instance that didn’t do that.
Here’s a website you can use to check what your instance is blocking.
Alternatively if you scroll to the bottom page of any individual lemmy instance there should be a link called Instances which will take you to a page of all the instances yours is federated and defederated with.
Oh neat I didn’t know that.
can you recommend a good instance with a no defederation policy?
An instance with no defederation policy is going to end up exactly like an instance with no moderation policy. It’s going to become Voat or whatever the latest far-right website is these days.
You might be better served to seek out an instance with a transparent defederation policy, and admins that use it as a tool of last resort, instead of first resort. I was, perhaps mistakenly, under the impression that lemmy.world fit that bill, but maybe not so much.
That’s incorrect. Mods need to moderate the content hosted on their OWN instance. Not stop the people on their instance from having access to outside information.
I think one of us doesn’t understand federation-- and to be clear, it might be me.
This is my understanding:
Every instance is like an email server and every account is like an email address. I’m NAME@lemmy.sdf.org and you’re NAME@lemmy.world. I think where people (and I used to) get confused is with how Communities play into this. Both of our instances have a “cats” community. And we both can see and post to each others “cats” communities. Our community could have a rule that also allows dogs, and your community could prohibit dogs. So, when you post you have to follow the rules of the community that you’re on, and those rules could be influenced by the instance admins themselves. So, kind of like how subreddits operate. So, the instance and the community moderators can control the content that is hosted on their own instance. So, you can have an instance that moderates only what’s happening on their own server, and that’s it.
Now, if lemmy.world decides to de-federate from lemmy.sdf.org, then as far as you can see, the other “cats” community doesn’t exist, I don’t exist, I can’t communicate with you, and you can’t with me. And the only reason you would do this is to make the moderating job easier. If you want, you can disconnect from from every other lemmy instance and then you don’t have to worry about outside people coming in and having to also moderate what they say on your forum, but then it changes from being an open forum to just being a “friend group”.
Also, I think the problem of “reddit supermods” is repeating. Lemmy.ml and lemmy.world are the two largest instances and at this point if they choose to de-federate from a smaller instance, it can basically kill that instance. And it can also be used to control the narrative. There are a few people making choices for many.
You can block users and communities yourself. Go sort by “All” and start blocking everything you don’t want to see again. After a short time your feed will be cleared up.
I thought we were discussing defederation. You cannot block entire instances on lemmy, that I know of.
Blocking a community does not block the users of the instance. The type of people that would naturally gravitate to, for example, a far right instance of lemmy.
I know you can’t block an instance as a user. I understand why you would want to. It would make things easier for us and I think it would be a good feature to add on the user side. Or perhaps an “opt in” to a block list that is kept by your instance.
In my opinion, blocking the individual users and instance communities is good enough for now. If a problematic member of another instance starts causing trouble in a community on your instance, then I believe it’s the job of the moderators to block them if they’re breaking the community rules, and outside of that it’s my own job to block individuals I don’t like.
It’s going to become Voat or whatever the latest far-right website is these days.
Not at all. I mean maybe if you only look at the local feed. But this is the Fediverse, I can still see every other instance.
I don’t need anyone choosing for me what I should and should not see. I can (and do) do that myself, thank you.
I don’t need anyone choosing for me what I should and should not see. I can (and do) do that myself, thank you.
I see this a lot, and first off, it’s not true at the instance level, for lemmy-- unless there’s a new option I didn’t see. Second, having to block someone that suggests you should die for your skin color, after reading the comment, is not without harm. There is value in preventing the speech from being seen at all, versus blocking people after the fact.
It’s obviously a generalization, but generally the people who say “just block them” are also people that haven’t lived with systemic bigotry directed at them for their entire lives.
And for the record, I don’t think piracy falls into this category of speech.
it’s not true at the instance level, for lemmy-- unless there’s a new option I didn’t see
I promise it is true. I’ve been doing it for months.
Second, having to block someone that suggests you should die for your skin color, after reading the comment, is not without harm.
Speak for yourself. Doesn’t harm me.
I promise it is true. I’ve been doing it for months.
You haven’t been blocking instances with Lemmy because that option doesn’t yet exist.
Speak for yourself. Doesn’t harm me.
What do you mean? Are you saying that because you aren’t affected that no one can be?
You haven’t been blocking instances with Lemmy because that option doesn’t yet exist.
Again, yes, I have.
What do you mean? Are you saying that because you aren’t affected that no one can be?
…no. I said the opposite of that.
I promise it is true. I’ve been doing it for months.
How do you block a whole instance in Lemmy?
Depends on your client
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I know reading comprehension isn’t much valued in some political circles, but I didn’t say what you think I said, so I’m not sure you really mean “agreed”.
Some moderation is required because an honest dialog cannot happen if all parties don’t feel safe. This is not the same as “no moderation”, but it’s also not the same as what you pretended I said, which is “heavy moderation”. I don’t understand why you think this discussion in any way translates to a government, but generally speaking, the US government has less ability to “censor” than a non-government entity.
And, as I already alluded to, the result of lax moderation is bigotry and hate, every time. If I had to pick between heavy moderation or voat, and to be clear, I don’t have to make that choice because there is nuance allowed, then I’d pick heavy moderation over a site infested with redhats and the like.
I don’t know if it’s their policy, but it’s against the spirit of the organization. This is where I’m at: lemmy.sdf.org
I actually saw it on this list: https://github.com/maltfield/awesome-lemmy-instances You can look at their list and find instances that show 0,0 for BI,BB (blocked instances, blocked by).
It would definitely make more sense to post the announcements on Lemmy rather than another discord server.
IMHO, Rather than dividing the stream of new information it would be better to focus on one platform.
Personally I dislike discord as the conversations there are too fast for me.
Personally I dislike discord as the conversations there are too fast for me.
Same. I never really liked how it’s used for discussion purposes because the conversation format doesn’t work there, especially if tons of people are chatting at the same time.
