YouTube and Reddit are sued for allegedly enabling the racist mass shooting in Buffalo that left 10 dead::The complementary lawsuits claim that the massacre in 2022 was made possible by tech giants, a local gun shop, and the gunman’s parents.
It use to be video games and movies taking the blame. Now it’s websites. When are we going to decide that people are just bat shit crazy and guns need some form of regulation?
Because every gun owner thinks they are “the good guys”
Because every gun owner thinks they are “the good guys”
Just wait till I use my gun to save a bunch of lives. Then you’ll see that I’m a hero. /s
And most of them fantasize about killing liberals and BLM protesters.
Why always equate gun owners with right wing wackos? It’s getting a tad tiring…
Because they think dead schoolkids are a necessary sacrifice for their gun collecting hobby?
Because most are.
Now I know the new trendy thing is for gun lobbyists and right-wing operatives online to stoke the division by pitching guns to the left. I know the intent is to profit from a wider market while simultaneously muddying the waters of who is the most violent ideological group.
… And some ground is being made with this vector, but it’s still nowhere close to comparable.
Usually from their perspective they are. Most people don’t try to be bad.
Yep. This guy thought he was fighting a righteous battle against the evil of white replacement. Brainwashed, but not insane by any clinical definition any more than any soldier is.
This is a key insight. There have been plenty of despots and dictators that ruled countries for decades while committing uncountable atrocities who had full command of their faculties.
deleted by creator
It’s not excuse, it’s a statement.
I can see the nuance in an argument that an online community, unmoderated, could be using an algorithm to group these violent people together and amplifying their views. The same can’t really be said for most other platforms. Writing threats of violence should still be taken seriously over the internet, especially if it was later acted upon. I don’t disagree with you that there’s a lot of bat shit crazy out there though.
deleted by creator
Or fucking Cicso for daring to switch those evil packages.
deleted by creator
Guns are the primary cause. They should go first. The others are secondary causes. They should go next.
deleted by creator
They’re not going anywhere, because our rights are solidly established and the Supreme Court is not going to abide with any infringements.
Unfortunately there’s a long history of ignoring supreme court rulings.
There’s also a long + contemporary history of citizens ignoring bans too. Check out the levels of compliance in New York after they banned some guns. Many of their counties’ sheriffs have even stated they won’t enforce those bans.
I guarantee the guns will still be here long after everyone who can read this is gone.
It is harder to get a nail salon license in many states than to accumulate an arsenal.
I don’t know man, sounds a bit too much like sense to me.
It’s not popular nowadays to mention that people need to have self accountability, there’s always apparently a website, service, game or social media platform to “blame” for the actions of the individual
How is self accountability incompatible with systemic issues?
but muh rights to go pew pew!
/s just in case not clear…
Just go to school if you want pew pew
I hate that reoccuring “joke”.
deleted by creator
Guns have more legislation written about them than nearly any other product. They are heavily regulated. They are not effectively regulated however.
This ineffectiveness is directly due to NRA lobbying, and their zero-tolerance attitude towards any new gun legislation. Any gun-friendly lawmaker who even gets close to writing gun control legislation will end up getting harassed (and likely primaried in the next election). So when gun control legislation passes, it’s inevitably written by people who don’t understand guns at all. No wonder it’s all shit!
Maybe now that the NRA is having financial difficulties legislators will have make leeway to enact things that might have a chance of working.
That’s the biggest ball of nonsense speak I’ve read all day.
So we have regulations, the regulations don’t work, and that’s the fault of the NRA…because they oppose more regulations?
Look, I’m no fan of the NRA either but that’s just word vomit.
Also, the political angle you describe is also nonsense. Just look at Sen. Feinstein, one of the biggest gun grabbers in American politics, who’s been in her seat for thirty years.
Getting the party nod or not getting it based on being anti-gun is basically a non-issue. If you’re an anti-gun Democrat, that won’t likely set you apart from other primary challengers, and certainly not enough to singlehandedly unseat an incumbent (not to mention the questions raised by your party leaving you vulnerable to primary challengers). If you’re an anti-gun Republican, you’ve got bigger issues to worry about than the NRA.
No, the NRA doesn’t make it so that gun friendly legislators don’t draft gun legislation, leaving it to be written by those who know nothing about the subject…rather it’s just common sense. A pro gun legislator knows that we’ve been trying that shit for years and it just… doesn’t…work. You’re expecting them to push for something that is not only against their political self interest but also their personal self interest, then blaming the NRA when it doesn’t happen.
The thing about bat shit crazy people is that they dont need guns to be violent, they will find another way.
I can’t realistically stab ten people in a crowd before I’m disarmed by the mob. And I certainly can’t do it from a hotel window.
The most deadly terror attacks were not done with guns.
Hella things with more force than guns though, and most of those aren’t outlawed yet. Ppl will make bombs and use vehicular methods if guns arent available. Outlawing guns will not solve the issue I think the most effective method is inclusion and treating people well, maybe there won’t be as many unhinged individuals who act out violently…? Of course more regulation would help too (without infringing 2nd amendment)
The point they are making is that guns, besides being a force amplifier, are also easily accessible. The more steps involved, the less likely you are engaged in said acts. It’s why Americans will drive 1 mile to get a six pack, even though walking to the shop yields the same result. The easiest path is the most likely.
More regulation without infringement is what we want. I don’t care if you have a gun. I care that they’re super easy to get, I also care that you can easily get a big gun that can kill a lot of people just as easily as a handgun.
Where are all these mass bombings and vehicular murders in other Countries then? You average multiple mass shootings per week in the US, while the events in other countries typically happen less than once a year.
That list proves my point - it’s mostly shootings. You have to go back to 2017 to find a vehicle/bombing attack in a western nation.
Why limit to “western” nations? Also there are only 3 attacks since 2017 listed in any “western” nation there in the first place
Why are video games immune to neuroplasticity? Or any form of entertainment really.
Neuroplasticity is not really relevant here - it’s just the ability of the brain to form new connections. You’d need a casual effect of video games/entertainment toward radicalization inherently and science does not support that position.
Even meta studies are not showing any causal link between gaming/entertainment and aggression
Anecdotally I play a genocidal maniac in every game I can. I love playing total war and killing every single thing I come across, razing pillaging their villages and enslaving the survivors. I’ve done it since I was a young child playing RTS games like age of empires. Adding up all my video game kills would probably be literally in the billions. Can you guess how many people I’ve killed in real life?
Why is every commenter defending it so aggressive then?
I imagine it feels that way when tons of people disagree with you. But that’s also part of posting in public discourse, if people don’t like what you’re saying they will surely let you know.
deleted by creator
I agree generally- but I also personally know people who were in some ways inspired to violence by media.
deleted by creator
No, I mean fictional media, specifically movies and tv shows.
What do you mean, “immune to neuroplasticity”?
Basically when you do something over and over your brain rewires to do it more efficiently but nobody seems to think hours of video games or perceived negativity/positivity has any effect when it comes to certain entertainment.
I mean… if you play video games for hours and hours, your brain will likely learn to play videogames better? Sure. I hardly see a correlation to mass murder here.
If you believe that action repetition is to blame for rewiring people’s brains to be more efficient at mass murder, why not blame the military, or hell, why not just start picketing outside your local airsoft or paintball places?
edit: he’ll into hell. I blame autocorrect.
Badabing. It’s okay. You heard a word somewhere and misunderstood how to use it. It happens.
Because clicking a mouse to go pew pew at fictional characters is drastically different than pointing and shooting a gun at a human being.
Even the most realistic military shooters, you don’t just get a red tint over your eyes if you get shot, you can’t wait it out or use a medkit to immediately be fully recovered, and people don’t respawn the next match after they are killed. They don’t show how gruesome and nerve-wracking real violence it is. They can’t show the lasting consequences of that. People who play video games might not even know how heavy a real gun is.
And then there are things like Fortnite and Overwatch, which are just silly cartoons. No comparison.
Are there any actual scientific studies that back up that summation? Because video games have been under intense scrutiny for decades and every time it’s brought up the consensus seems to be that there’s no direct link
Video games are not the causal reason for mass shootings. Do other countries have gun violence like America does? No. But they play video games just at much as we do.
It’s not video games that are the problem, it’s the easy access to lightly regulated guns.
People still stuck on the defensive route of this.
Because it’s literally the facts…
So you think neuroplasticity is fake?
deleted by creator
Idk about this suit but let’s not forget how Facebook did actually in fact get a fascist elected president.
https://www.wired.com/2016/11/facebook-won-trump-election-not-just-fake-news/
He was treated like a joke candidate by the Democrats at the time. Facebook didn’t get him elected, Hillary ran a weak campaign and didn’t take the threat seriously. He used FB for fundraising and she could’ve done the same thing if she wanted to.
It’s bizarre looking at this from the outside and seeing Americans trying to blame everything but the availablity of guns for shootings happening.
Many Americans will sacrifice a lot for their guns. Including school children and the ability to live in a safe society.
Coming from a country that had a couple of school shootings and then decided it wasn’t worth the risk, and everyone handed in their guns with little complaint, I find it hard to comprehend.
It’s hard to comprehend from the inside. This country is full of traumatizing shit that’s really hard to face.
Well, even Americans without guns are much more violent than people in other first-world countries. Our non-gun homicide rate is higher than the total homicide rate in (for example) France or Germany.
There’s an interesting discussion of the statistics here.
So my interpretation is that gun control is likely to reduce the murder rate, but the change will not be nearly as dramatic as many gun-control supporters seem to expect. Guns aren’t most of the problem.
Means≠motivation. Having the capacity to do something doesn’t drive one to do so.
I’m not deeply researched on this case but from what I know I’d imagine that poor solication combined with being accepted into a group who’d espouse those kind of views contributed to their actions. Not to say that any of those websites did anything particularly to drive their actions.
It is a quasi-religious thing. They would rather risk their kids dying than even accept the most basic regulations.
You can’t sue “the availability of guns”, but you can sue YouTube, Reddit, the manufacturer, and whoever else is involved and at least try to get some money out of them.
Man, if the only thing that’s preventing a country’s populace from murdering each other is restricted access to weapons, then that country is a failed society.
Man, if your country has you living in such fear that you feel the need to be armed at all times, then that country is a failed society.
Yeah, let’s not regulate guns at all, that’s a swell idea. Really worked out well so far.
Let’s make them illegal, like drugs, because that works great.
The demand for guns in the US is high; if you don’t think this would become a lucrative black market you’re foolish.
The solution is more involved than just “regulate X”. Something is deeply fucked that isn’t going to be simply solved with a law, and could make things worse despite great intentions, just like prohibition did.
If the demand isn’t addressed, the problem will still exist. Same as prostitution and drugs.
It’s almost like an in-between option for both drugs and guns needs to be considered.
I’d still contend the issue is demand, and that is the root issue. Other solutions are treating the symptom, not the cause.
The demand isn’t so much the problem in an in between option, fair regulation and access requirements along with tracking (in the case of guns moreso) would help tremendously.
Definitely though the underlying cause of the desire/need is a separate discussion. Recreational drugs/guns aren’t a complete negative imo, some people just like to experience a different mindset/state or shoot guns, but those that are mentally ill should be able to get help instead.
I don’t disagree necessarily, I just see it this way.
There’s a drug problem: why are people turning to drugs for escapism? It indicates an underlying issue with society and/or our relationship with drugs.
Along the same lines, why are we so hostile towards one another? Reducing the number of guns would reduce the number of people shot, but it wouldn’t address the hostility.
It’s just more complicated than “regulate X” no matter how good or common sense those regulations are.
My concern is that people only pursue the regulations, don’t address the social issue (much harder), and we end up with what prohibition created - a more robust black market.
Let’s make them illegal, like drugs, because that works great.
So what’s the black market for hand grenades and land mines like?
Practically non-existent because it turns out controlling weapon manufacturing is much easier than controlling drug manufacturing and you can properly scrutinise people’s access to them without a death cult getting outraged.
There will always be murders. Humans are irrational creatures. Banning firearms makes murder attempts less likely to succeed, and mass murders significantly harder to plan, execute, and achieve actual mortality with.
Yes much better to arm that populace and have it be a double failure. Your failed society comparison would be an improvement for the US.
I mean, I’m sure there are lots of other socioeconomic reasons, but it feels like you can solve this big one a lot quicker and easier than trying to solve all the abstract issues that covers.
Fantastic. I’ve been waiting to see these cases.
Start with a normal person, get them all jacked up on far right propaganda, then they go kill someone. If the website knows people are being radicalized into violent ideologies and does nothing to stop it, that’s a viable claim for wrongful death. It’s about foreseeability and causation, not about who did the shooting. Really a lot of people coming in on this thread who obviously have no legal experience.
I just don’t understand how hosting a platform to allow people to talk would make you liable since you’re not the one responsible for the speech itself.
Is that really all they do though? That’s what theyve convinced us that they do, but everyone on these platforms knows how crucial it is to tweak your content to please the algorithm. They also do everything they can to become monopolies, without which it wouldn’t even be possible to start on DIY videos and end on white supremacy or whatever.
I wrote a longer version of this argument here, if you’re curious.
This is a good read, I highly suggest people click the link. Although it is short enough that I think you could have just posted it into your comment.
Yes, but then I couldn’t harvest all your sweet data.
Kidding! It’s a static site on my personal server that doesn’t load anything but the content itself. It’s mostly just a PITA to reformat it all mobile.
Which article is it? The link takes me to the website main page.
Huh really? Do you have JS turned off or anything? Here’s the full link: https://theluddite.org/#!post/section-230
Hmm not sure. I use a client called Memmy for browsing Lemmy. Copy and pasting the link in my browser worked. Thanks!
I bet memmy cuts off the URL at the “#!” for some reason. I’ll submit a bug report to their repo.
I agree to a point, but think that depending on how things are structured on the platform side they can have some responsibility.
Think of facebook. They have algorithms which make sure you see what they think you want to see. It doesn’t matter if that content is hateful and dangerous, they will push more of that onto a damaged person and stoke the fires simply because they think it will make them more advertisement revenue.
They should be screening that content and making it less likely for anyone to see it, let alone damaged people. And I guarantee you they know which of their users are damaged people just from comment and search histories.
I’m not sure if reddit works this way, due to the upvotes and downvote systems, it may be moreso the users which decide the content you see, but reddit has communities which they can keep a closer eye on to prevent hateful and dangerous content from being shared.
They set the culture.
Did reddit know people were being radicalized toward violence on their site and did they sufficiently act to protect foreseeable victims of such radicalization?
Tell that to the admins of lemmy.world defederating from communities because they may be held liable for what shows up on their website.
We should get the thought police in on this also, stop it before it has a chance to spread. For real though, people need to take accountability for their own actions and stop trying to deflect it onto others.
a viable claim for wrongful death
Something tells me you’re not a lawyer.
Something tells me you’re wrong and not a lawyer.
Does remindmebot exist on Lemmy? I’d be very interested in a friendly wager.
Loser has to post a pic in a silly shirt!
I don’t know but I’m 3 for 3 on these.
Bet that Supreme Court would uphold ATF interpretation on bump stock ban. That appeals courts would find a violation of 1A where Trump and other political figures blocked constituents on social media. And I bet that Remington was going to be found liable in the Sandy Hook lawsuit on a theory not wholly dissimilar from the one we’re talking about here. I’m pretty good at novel theories of liability.
What silly shirt will you wear?
Mine will say “I’m a T-Rex stuck in a woman’s body”
I am not, in fact, a woman. It’s a hoot.
Mine will say “Novel theories of civil liability are not my bag, baby!”
In fact they are.
It’s a date! No remindmebot but I’ll bookmark it.
The catch is whether the site knows that specific individual is being radicalized. If admins aren’t punishing the account regularly I wonder how difficult it will be to prove reddit/YT specifically pushed this guy.
Really a lot of people coming in on this thread who obviously have no legal experience.
Like you
Fuck reddit but thats bs.
YouTube, named with parent companies Alphabet Inc. and Google, is accused of contributing to the gunman’s radicalization and helping him acquire information to plan the attack. Similarly, the lawsuits claim Reddit promoted extreme content and offered a specialized forum relating to tactical gear.
Yeah this is going nowhere.
Say what you want about youtube and reddit but if you want them to censor more and more you are creating a sword that can be used against you too. I also don’t like the idea of shooting the messenger no matter how much we may dislike the messages. When I hear lawsuits like this I always think it is greedy lawyers pushing people to sue because they see deep pockets.
Right, so then they should be operated as a public telecom and be regulated as Title II. This would allow them to be free from such lawsuits.
However, they want to remain as private for profit companies so they should be held responsible for not acting responsibly.
Last I heard they’re already covered under Safe Harbor laws and are protected.
I agree
and with hold sites like youtube accountable I am living a gun that can shoot me. Its a double edge sword that can be used to hurt me no matter what we do
The algorithm feeds on fear and breeds anger. This much is true.
The lawsuit claims Mean LLC manufactured an easily removable gun lock, offering a way to circumvent New York laws prohibiting assault weapons and large-capacity magazines.
This seems like the only part of the suits that might have traction. All the other bits seem easy to dismiss. That’s not a statement on whether others share responsibility, only on what seems legally actionable in the US.
Here’s an install video of what I assume was the product in question based on the named LLC. https://youtu.be/EjJdMfuH9q4
Shy of completely destroying the the lock and catch system by drilling the mechanism I don’t see an effective way of removing it.
I don’t think it’d meet the court’s standards for easily removable given it’d require power tools and would permanently alter the device in an unfamiliar reversible way.
- RMA Armament is named for providing the body armor Gendron wore during the shooting.
No he bought it.
- Vintage Firearms of Endicott, New York, is singled out for selling the shooter the weapon used in the attack.
Not their issue he passed the background check.
- The lawsuit claims Mean LLC manufactured an easily removable gun lock, offering a way to circumvent New York laws prohibiting assault weapons and large-capacity magazines.
Any knob w/ a dremel can make a gun full auto, let alone defeating a mag lock. And he broke NY law doing this.
- YouTube, named with parent companies Alphabet Inc. and Google, is accused of contributing to the gunman’s radicalization and helping him acquire information to plan the attack.
This is just absurd.
My guess is they are hoping for settlements vs going to trial where they lose.
Only responding to the last point, but if they can prove that Google somehow curated his content to push him towards fringe, terroristic websites, they could be found liable as a civil suit.
Any basic “you may like this” algorithm can produce those results.
deleted by creator
That is legitimately a problem.
For some reason, YouTube’s algorithm heavily favors extremist content if you show even a casual interest in related material.
It’s probably as simple as “shocking content gets more clicks”, but still, it’s not good for our society to have entertainment platforms recommending extremist views.
In the old days, you’d have to seek out this kind of fringe content on your own. And you’d get pushback from your community if you started talking nonsense.
Nowadays, my aunt is getting blasted with reptilian democrat stuff after showing an interest in typical conservative lady content years ago. And there is not much of a community left to help her out. The algorithms just amplify all the worst shit.
Oh you watch WWII videos because you like hearing about how liberal democracy stomped fascism with superior tactics, weapons and intelligence?
Here’s some videos by actual fascists! Women are the patriarchy!
Oh you like videos about Cold War Russia and espionage?
How about this video about why Ukraine is run by Jewish paedophile Nazis?
Next they will announce that they are suing Disney because he watched the History Channel, and that had violence on it which contributed to his actions.
deleted by creator
Ahh one of those “We’re mad and we don’t have anyone to be angry with.” style lawsuits. Pretty much the Hail Mary from a lawyer who is getting their name in the paper but knows it won’t go anywhere.
“Easy to remove gun lock” that has been tried multiple times and usually fails. “Gun lock” doesn’t seem to be related to assault weapons and large capacity magazine but who knows what they mean, even when a gun is “Easily modifiable” it’s usually not treated as illegal, because someone has to actually make those modifications. The same will probably be the case for the kevlar. (at the time of the shooting it was legal).
Youtube contributing to radicalization is a laugh, it’s an attempt to get their name in the papers and will be dismissed easily. They’d have better chance to name the channels that radicalized him, but first amendment rights would be near absolute here. Besides which “Radicalization” isn’t the same as a conspiracy or orders. It’s the difference between someone riling up the crowd until they’re in a fervor which ends up in a riot, and someone specifically telling people how to riot and who to target. (Even if can be tried as crimes, one is a conspiracy, one is not, and even that “radicalization” would be neither.) Even “I wish someone would go shoot up …” would be hyperbole, and thrown out as well. It’s pretty hard to break the first amendment protections in America (And that’s a good thing, if you think it’s not imagine if the other party is in power and wants to squash your speech… yeah let’s keep that amendment in place).
The same will be the case against Facebook for all the same reasons.
If you think Google should be responsible, then you think the park that someone is radicalized in should be responsible for what’s said in it, or the email provider is responsible for every single piece of mail that is sent on it, even though it might not have access to see that mail… it’s a silly idea even assuming they could even do that. Maybe they’re hoping to scare Google to change it’s algorithm, but I doubt that will happen either.
The case against the parents is another one that people try and again… unless there’s more than their saying, you still can’t sue someone for being a bad parent. Hell there’s a better case against the parents of Ethan Crumbley, and even that cases is still pretty shaky, and involved the parents actively ignoring every warning sign, and buying the kid the gun. This there’s nothing that seems to be pinnable on the parents.
You know it sucks and I know there’s a lot of hurt people but lawsuits like this ultimately fail because it’s like rolling the dice, but history pretty much shows this is hoping for a one in a million chance that they get lucky, and they won’t, because it’s one in a million, and then they’d have to hope it’s not overturned even if they do win.
You don’t know what you’re talking about and it’s obvious.
You’re not a lawyer, right?
This is really, really stupid.
The village (community/lack of community) makes the villains. Everyone’s a problem. We are all to blame.
interesting… whether the sites will be found liable…. it’s pretty unlikely, but it sure does shine a spotlight on how each are magnets for alt-right crazies. I wonder if that will have any effect on their moderation?
I doubt it.
They’re also “magnets” for progressive, liberal, conservative and all other crazies and normal people. That’s mostly because everyone uses them. It’s the most popular video sharing site and (one of?) the most popular social media site.
yeah, but progressives and liberals and all other “crazies and normal people” aren’t the ones committing mass shootings all the time.
Right, but since YouTube and Facebook are two of the most popular sites in the world, they aren’t really just magnets for alt-right crazies, since they appeal to almost everybody.
right, but “everybody” aren’t the ones committing mass shootings all the time. that’s an alt-right crazies problem.
I didn’t say they were. Facebook and YouTube didn’t commit the shootings, and there isn’t anything particularly special about them that would disproportionately attract the alt-right crazies. They’re not hate sites.
here isn’t anything particularly special about them that would disproportionately attract the alt-right crazies
lmao… that’s a good one
YouTube’s algorithm seems to be funneling people to alt-right videos
Feeding Hate With Video: A Former Alt-Right YouTuber Explains His Methods
‘Carol’s Journey’: What Facebook knew about how it radicalized users
‘It let white supremacists organize’: the toxic legacy of Facebook’s Groups
this is just scratching the surface…
a great video essay the subject:
The Trump supporters like to bitch that Facebook has been censoring their opinions, especially during 2020 and 2021. They felt the same way about Twitter until Elon turned it into a hell hole.
They aren’t being sued for being “magnets.”
💀
