I joined reddit on the tailwind, so it was all echo chamber, we hate newcomers, gatekeeping, automod frenzy, too many rulebreakers, too many rules, etc I could be wrong, but thats what I imagine it used to be like.
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A major difference being that the fediverse won’t get that “advertiser friendly” corporate sanitization with how it’s set up.
It’s nice not being advertised to or feeling like a product.
I think you underestimate the sheer fuckery of corporate advertisers.
I think the fundamental question is, as the Fediverse gets more popular, then how will servers get paid for? Here are some possibilities I see for how Fediverse hosting could work at scale:
- Surviving off donations alone: Possible but in my estimation unlikely, and it could veer into the territory of big donors having a controlling stake or exerting their interests.
- Instances limiting number of users to what they can afford: This would require the network of instances process to really work well.
- Big instances selling advertisements: Without oversight or moral commitment, this could easily go towards creepy personal data collection.
- Crowdsourcing the costs: This would require transparency and fundraising or some other model
- Hosts financing the operation in other ways: This could also easily get into creepy data collection practices or other dark patterns.
I hope we come up with some process or plan for avoiding the pitfalls and forging an honest and community-integrating way forward.
Aka eternal September
Ah yes, the common addition that ruins pretty much every equation. People. People suck 😂
The only solution is to make your own private instance and never allow anyone to join. Perfection at last… Oh, wait there’s still one human ruining the atmosphere. Not to worry, there’s a quick fix for that. You just need to ban yourself and then the instance will be completely perfect forever.
Especially when the public gets to be anonymous. Then they believe they can do and say whatever they want to, no matter how shitty
I was on Reddit since almost the beginning and I would not say it’s similar, but I also don’t think that culture exists on the internet anymore, closest thing might be tildes?
What I really miss is the intelligent conversion and actual debate in the comments. People don’t really lay out arguments anymore, complete with sources and logical conclusions. Back in the early days of Reddit you’d be downvoted and told off if you made a claim without evidence. Anecdotal evidence, speculation, and bias were called out. There were still jokes and light comment sections, but comments aiming to make a point were essays where you could actually learn something. Might sound exhausting to some, but it feels like the internet has turned into just upvoting whatever confirms your bias, whether there’s evidence of it or not. I’m sure you can find some excellent examples in the old r/bestof posts.
The content was a lot different too, the community was just a lot more scientific. Studies were posted over articles, and clickbait articles (before they were even clickbait) were called out as not having substantial content or evidence. Even studies were heavily scrutinized by identifying the bias in the methodology.
There were a lot less communties (subreddits) too, which I think lead to healthier discussion overall and less of an echo chamber effect. It was still always criticized as being a “hive mind”, but it felt less like one to me back then anyways.
I guess overall it feels like the main difference is everything nowadays is meant to radicalize you, or get a reaction out of you. Back in the day if something political or scientific was being shared it was shared with the intention of changing minds, not confirming bias.
Anyways, that’s my old person rant. I’m probably looking at it all through rose tinted nostalgia glasses, but there’s definitely been a shift in how we communicate on the internet for better or for worse.
Downvoted.
Not a laid out argument, complete with sources and logical conclusions. This is anecdotal, speculative, and biased information.
Serious note : Love your perspective about the old reddit I’m always curious to know what made internet what it was. I wonder if that’ll happen again.
Source or gtfo!
My favorite was old days of Reddit you’d be skewered for posting a .jpg instead of a .png of the image had text.
JPG should be killed off. We don’t need a lossy image format anymore were not on dialup.
heard of 3g? theres better compression out there now anyways
I also remember constant reminders to vote on the quality of the post, not if you agree or not.
Haha yeah, I don’t know if that disclaimer is still there, but that totally went out the window in the mid 2010s
It’s not and that’s because it’s bad for Reddit’s business model in the short term. If you zoom out this is exactly why reddit is on a nose dive over the last 3 years. More. Shit. Content.
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Kinda pain in the ass to add links and formatting on a phone which most of us use. Early days of reddit was all Desktops.
Yeah good point, that’s probably part of it! Reddit was probably used more during active time than passive time (while shitting). Gave you time to properly research a topic and structure arguments.
/r/askhistorians was the last bastion of this approach. I loved that sub and really hope they migrate to a lemmy soon.
yea that reminds me when facebookk first came out and it was only for college, my friends would post stuff like that
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I don’t know, I’m a pretty left leaning person. The vitriolic, almost violent responses to some of my comments is shocking. I knew Lemmygrad was a thing here, along with tankies, honestly it’s off putting to say the least. OP talks about Reddit being an echo chamber. I got news for you. This place is just as bad for lefty type discourse being regurgitated. My experience is that it has been anything but friendly.
Also just as hostile to women as reddit, sadly.
I honestly wouldn’t give those people the dignity of calling them leftists. They’re too concerned about cosplaying as activists and dunking on people to actually give a shit about advancing the rights of real people or trying to protect anything good.
Seriously the number of people who defend DPRK and Pol Pot claiming they were socialists is shocking.
Edit: the “they” refers to the nation states not the posters
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I feel like those posters aren’t really socialists either. There’s a point which just claiming a worldview isn’t enough to justify the accuracy of that label while holding all the opposing positions to its values.
I see comments like this, complaining about tankies, more often than i see “tankies”.
On the occasion politics comes up, and i say anything socialist, I’m jumped on by people who seem either angry or smugly dismissive of the notion of people organising.
Dude is a Canadian landlord. But I guess since the right wing has literal nazis now, anything left of that is ‘pretty left leaning’
It’s shit like this. I’m just a normal guy, I have a job, kids, hobbies. I believe in less military spending, national healthcare, social programs, and support for our vulnerable population. I got into real estate because it seemed like a good investment. People on here make it seem like anything that doesn’t fit their idea of “left” or"socialism" just be part of the conservative machine. Jesus, my investment decisions are not politically motivated. I made the mistake of trying to be part of a discussion and ended up with someone telling me I’m garbage and that I should give my investments to the tenants. Lol.
Being a landlord is a deliberate choice to make money through other people’s work.
It’s welfare for the rich.
That’s not to say you, or any specific landlord, is evil. It’s just an evil thing to do. If you don’t live in the house, you have no business owning it.
Unfortunately the same could be said of the stock market. When it comes to financial planning for retirement or longer financial stability, one can choose between real estate or the stock market (among other choices).
I think the real issue with property ownership is having some reasonable limits and regulations. 1) no foreign investments in certain home types, 2) a cap/limit on the properties owned by any individuals (or LLCs they are associated with), and most importantly a complete ban on corporations owning residential properties.
Sure we could transition into removing real estate as an investment vehicle, but unfortunately I really can’t see a realistic path to this.
Unfortunately the same could be said of the stock market
You seem to think I wouldn’t agree there, too. Yes, the same could and is rightfully said about the stock market.
When it comes to financial planning for retirement or longer financial stability, one can choose between real estate or the stock market (among other choices).
And that is an indicator of a poorly planned economy.
I think the real issue with property ownership is having some reasonable limits and regulations. 1) no foreign investments in certain home types, 2) a cap/limit on the properties owned by any individuals (or LLCs they are associated with), and most importantly a complete ban on corporations owning residential properties.
I mostly agree, but I’d go even further. A single law:
It is illegal to own a home one does not occupy for more than 9 months of the year; or any holding wherein others are employed to work for a wage; or to monopolise access to resources or facilities necessary for social production
TL;DR abolish private property.
Sure we could transition into removing real estate as an investment vehicle, but unfortunately I really can’t see a realistic path to this.
Right above! You may call that unrealistic, but the only wrinkles are rich bastards being upset they can no longer leech. I don’t believe that worthy of consideration.
And honestly, today I agree with you (although I think there is some merit in a rental system as some people prefer to rent). I haven’t bought a property for 15 years and I see what the younger generation is going through. If I knew then what I know now, I would not have purchased rentals. But at the time the real estate market was much different. Hell there were decent properties for sale for 70k back then.
some people prefer to rent
Utter bullshit. The only reason people rent instead of buying is because prices are too damn high.
And prices are too damn high because of landlords. If you are both problem and solution, your job needn’t exist.
If I knew then what I know now, I would not have purchased rentals. But at the time the real estate market was much different.
It was exactly the same, only cheaper. And it was the flood of landlords buying when it was cheap that led to prices getting higher.
People like you are the reason this problem exists.
If I knew then what I know now, I would not have purchased rentals.
You at least deserve credit for admitting this.
There are many European families that I know in Canada that are financially able to buy but choose to rent.
the right wing has literal nazis now
No more than the left does
Mate, it ain’t possible to be left wing and a nazi.
That’s a lie
Nazism is a far right ideology, my ignorant friend.
The Nazis are socialists
I just said I knew they were present, I didn’t say I specifically had a problem with them. I personally think that we’re don’t have enough unions. Any time corporations are against something, that usually means it’s good for employees and the environment. (I have no particular opinion on people’s political notions). It’s sad that people here on both ends of the political spectrum can’t voice their opinion without being jumped on. Honestly it’s worse than Reddit.
I’ve had several people here already tell me (directly or indirectly) that I’m really a Trump supporter in disguise because I dare criticize Biden and centrists don’t exist. But that isn’t a problem specific to Lemmy, and the sites that aren’t like this are alt-right “Ultra MAGA” cult sites that I want nothing to do with.
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The left has turned into the fascists they pretend to despise
Absolutely. If you can’t look at your own side critically, you’re in a cult.
Anyone who supports Biden isn’t left wing, especially if they get mad at your criticism.
The left has a lot to say about Biden
lol i put up a post on here and people analyzing it from a “socialist perspective” the thing is i thin kits limited to certain cats [what u call communities] lemmy is like america 1790s, all kinds of people comign in here, some of the rejects from other countries, some criminals, and some opportunity seekers
GOP/Russian/Qanon propaganda everywhere
I find Lemmy to be an echo chamber more than Reddit was. Depends on the community but Lemmy can be pretty caustic if you don’t agree with something.
That being said, is fine there is different opinions. Creates discussion.
Honestly, the fact that Lemmy displays upvote and downvote counts (like reddit, at least with RES, used to) makes it a lot friendlier. If you say something unpopular, better to see +10/-4 than just -6 - if you’re saying something unpopular but true, at least you’re seeing some positive reaction.
This alone makes it worlds less toxic and less circlejerky. People won’t automatically groupthink themselves into disregarding you if they realize that your comment was divisive instead of wrong.
+15/-45 gets that across better than -30
YouTube/Google also made this mistake. Or, I’m sure it is tested to make some KPI look good. But, certainly not the ability to discern “is this video garbage/scam” at a glance.
Sure, I’m clicking more videos to find a relevant one. So, probably “increases engamement”, but also reduces my willingness to pay for the service. But, I suppose it’s mostly driven by ad impressions.
This must depend on which app you’re using.
Sync just shows the total, I’d prefer if it didn’t show at all.
Haven’t used Sync but I bet they carried a lot of the UI stuff over from reddit and didn’t update that. Default web UI for lemmy shows the up and down.
I’d say less so. There wasn’t much by way of disinformation campaigns and bots back when Reddit first started so the posts and comments felt more genuine and organic. Even with Kbin/Lemmy being much smaller, there’s still a ton of weird shit that gets posted here or comments that feel really suspicious. It would be nice for that kind of environment to make its way back, but it seems those days are over.
Yeah 100% When I joined I saw so much weird pro China and Russia comments, veiled but there. And no one would disagree! To me it felt like trying to influence newcomers and it was more insidious the way it was presented. Nothing like the dumb trolls I was used to seeing on reddit.
This is especially bad due to certain instances. It wasn’t so bad on Reddit where they usually limited themselves to a few subreddits, but it’s really off putting to see the nonstop propaganda they spew. So glad LW defederated with that instance.
Dude when I joined it was everywhere. I don’t know if they were other instances or what because I was still learning the system and app I’m using (and app may not have even specified at the time everything was new) but I was HEAVILY considering leaving the site based on what I was seeing. And that .ml was run by ccp supporters. I saw completely unrelated subs (still don’t know what to call them) even tho they were LW have in their rules no negative comments about CCP. They weren’t even political subs. That’s when I was like fuck it, I’m speaking up when I see it. I have people I care about directly impacted by this shit. I’m not tolerating it. Thankfully it is much better now at least on LW. idk about elsewhere
Yeah it’s such a weird vibe here, and honestly, if it doesn’t change, I think it’s going to be what dooms the platform. This version of it, at least.
It’s this super far left melting pot of western progressive talking points that are also somehow pro Russia and China.
Not saying that these are necessarily mutually exclusive views, but to most Western audiences, you’re holding views that are (again within a Western frame of reference) simultaneously far right and far left…which is most likely to be polarizing enough to just annoy or piss off most casual users.
That’s what was so fucking confusing to me. How can you go so far left that you are now praising current existing authoritarian governments that are hurting their own citizens and spreading it farther? Ukraine, Hong Kong, those are very fucking recent but even more shit happened in a lot of living memory with these countries.
Then I realized. They just chose the name far left. It sure as shit has nothing in common with what I believe a lot of us consider being left as; putting the well being of a citizen and social/environmental/etc progress above profit.
We just had an incident of CSAM on the largest instance and of course there is the pool of shit that is explodingheads and to a much lesser extent hexbear.
And the ddos’ n child porn aren’t too nice either
hey I’m doing my best to be rude, scabulous, irascible and misanthropic out here.
There are antibiotic creams for scabulousness these days, how advanced is your case? 🧟♀️
Ed Sheeran level. He’s too far gone
/j
ha. typo. I meant scabrous.
My dick looks like a pepperoni pizza.
I was around when reddit first started. There were Nazis. It seemed fine, because Nazis were useless idiots, and people told them to go fuck themselves.
Reddit in 2016 actively helped install a fascist who eventually tried to overthrow American democracy.
Reddit now is a place where “fuck off, Nazi” is punished more reliably and more harshly than being a goddamn Nazi.
This service feels familiar - but not for the reasons I’d like. The fools in charge of every popular instance think scolding “be polite!” and punishing rudeness instead of trolling are a force multiplier for trolls. If you can just keep saying dumb shit until someone says a no-no word - they get the boot, and you win.
I want a forum where “here is why you’re an asshole” is moderated based on whether the explanation is correct.
I actually got told by Reddit Staff that they’d contact law enforcement if I made anymore references to “punching Nazis”, then they banned me for “Report Abuse”
They never did a damn thing about the trolls who kept flagging any post referencing me being trans or anything positive about transpeople as “Suicidal” or “Promoting Self-Harm”
Got those “A redditor has asked us to reach out to you concerning…” all fucking day.
The worst sin of reddit mods was demanding “report and move on!” and then never doing anything about reports. Or scolding you for messaging the subreddit instead of using the report button.
Either do the fucking work or let people talk.
The worst part of that is they started banning people for “Report Abuse” even though I checked, “Report Abuse” is not even mentioned in the TOS.
How the fuck, are you gonna tell me to “Report and move on”, if you ban me for reporting.
Incidentally, guess why I had to stop using Reddit…
They banned me for very obviously joking that someone else should punch the fascist attorney general of Indiana in the face and it was some sort of punny reply based on something he said. They only reinstated me because a bunch of mods from multiple subreddits took my side.
They ban for “won’t someone rid me of this turbulent priest” comments apparently.
You understand that idiom, but not ‘go on, make my day?’ Even when it’s patiently explained to you?
What?
You didn’t say “go on, make my day” there. That’s a lie. That phrase doesn’t even appear. What a bizarre thing to lie about when anyone can just look.
It’s in semiquotes because it’s paraphrasing. Jesus. This level of rigid demand makes sense if you’re on the spectrum or ESL or something - otherwise, what the fuck?
I said ‘Go on, tell me this one’s synecdoche.’ (Again: paraphrasing.) You said ‘It is synecdoche, though.’ I said ‘Correct. They both are.’ And then you started litigating like I’d insulted you, or contradicted myself. Even when I directly paraphrased what you wrote, to agree with it.
You missed a common idiom - had it laid out for you in detail - repeatedly took offense over nothing - and I’m guessing reported it. So I’m a little surprised to see you elsewhere in my replies, frustrated at overzealous moderation, when it’s your indirect implications in question.
You’re wrong about those too, by the way. “Turbulent priest” comments are a call to violence. That line was prototypical stochastic terrorism. Not directly saying “kill that prick” - but clearly communicating that you’d like that prick killed. Even in the twelfth century people recognized this was a flimsy excuse.
Oh, I got that once. What’s the idea, I don’t get it ?
There’s a negative stereotype that Transpeople kill themselves all the time, studies have shown this number to be dropping and the suicides to be caused by abuse from others and denial of transition related care.
The Far Right ignores this and goes “Lol transpeople kill themselves because transpeople dumb”
So it became a thing to report anyone Trans on Reddit, for “Suicidal Behavior”, which Reddit never looks into the validity of, they just send you a bunch of suicide hotline links… which is well intended, but there really should be a mechanism in place to find out if they’re trolling.
Eventually when it became common knowledge that it’s so exploitable it became a more in general method of griefing others.
I got an account banned from Reddit for saying “the only good nazi is a dead nazi” and frankly I’m fine with being banned from any community that doesn’t agree with that message.
I feel like political discourse didn’t start on Reddit until after subreddits were added
Haha, no. There’s a reason /r/Atheism was one of the default subs. All that Ron Paul didn’t come out of nowhere.
They say Atheism is to having a religion in the same way that not having a car is the same as having a car.
The same cannot be said of r/Atheism, the most dogmatic place on the whole fucking internet.
Indeed.
Big ‘/r/Politics is just like /r/Conservative!!!’ energy.
Shut.
I thought you were going to say, full of weirdos, degenerates and outcasts. 🤣
I feel like you might be looking at early Reddit through rose coloured glasses. 😆
All the tales of Eden have been told by those who stayed till the fall
Yep, having jailbait as one of the top subs is not a good look. But in other places it’s more pleasant. I miss the novelty accounts before the coming of bots.
i miss when spacedicks would make some gross disgusting shit get to the front page 😂
full of weirdos
“There are no sane people, only underdiagnosed” - soviet doctor probably
It’s already like that here, friend.
Lemmy might be friendlier on the surface but has a much stronger hivemind-y aspect to it where you agree with it or else.
It’s already like that here, friend.
Lemmy didn’t take off until well into May 2023, despite being online and open source for over 4 years. The quantity of posts, communities, comments was very small for 4 years online.
Then everyone flocked out of hate and anger of an API money matter with Reddit.Then crowds got hate-filled and angry when Threads was launched by Meta/Instagram/Facebook on July 5. And crowds became hate-filled and angry over Elon Musk rename of Twitter to X on July 23.
Outside big growth in memes and shitposts, there haven’t been big numbers of people flocking here out of organic goodness on organized topics. It has largely been a HiveMind of hate as a motivation to come here since May.
Some good seeds have been planted since May, but the atmosphere of hate motivates change is pretty much Mob Mentality / reactionary.
Your timeline of events is intriguing to see and makes sense to me, even if I had a different experience. Thanks for that.
Definitely, you can also see that on certain communities, there are very strong opinions which don’t allow for discussion.
Say anything that goes against the grain and you will be shunned immediately.Also - not that that is always a bad thing but Lemmy is extremely left leaning and you just can’t discuss certain topics here at all.
(Guns are always bad / Cars should all be banned and traded for bicycles / traveling by plane is bad and you should feel horrible for destroying the environment…)
What I enjoyed about early reddit was the tech/nerd focused community that did not try to push their political opinion into every thread.
Basically the worst part of reddit is already here, just that the echo chambers are smaller for now.Honestly, I’m not sure how I feel about it.
As someone who was on Reddit when it was young I am going to disagree with you here. Young Reddit was absolutely full of political ideology. It was a Ron Paul, legalize weed, atheist, soft anti feminist, cypher punk, USA style libertarian pool of ideology.
All places have an ideology. We are all constantly swimming in ideology. It’s just when an ideology matches you (either you being molded by the ideology or you joining a place with a matching ideology) you don’t notice it. A fish only has to think about the medium it is in after it is pulled out of the water.
It’s why Reddit Enhancement Suite was so valued on desktop for its filtering abilities and third party apps.
And the longer people used the reddit the more likely they were to avoid going to /r/all and unsubscribe from most if not all default subreddits.
Filtering is becoming just as important on the fediverse.
How is Dorothy going to make it to Oz if you’re hoarding all the damn strawmen?
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Indeed. Watch me attract downvotes. *ahem*
Linux sucks, and Windows 11 is a great OS.
I respectfully disagree with you.
my experience so far is people are as, if not more toxic then reddit. honestly I feel like half the people here were sick of people blocking them on reddit and decided to attack people with their stupidity here instead.
If you’re reading this, please go back to reddit, they need you so much more over there.
This is my experience as well, lemmy.world has been quite toxic IME.
Report those being toxic. We are quick to react.
You have no idea what you’re talking about, if you think people here are bad you must be the most fragile little snowflake who ever lived.
Go curl up and jerk off in your safe space.
/s for those who weren’t sure.
Now my safe space is filled with cum
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Ur toxic
:-P
Honestly the lack of content helps people mellow out.
I like the fact that I’m not doom scrolling and being fed rage bait by algorithms. I also like the fact that I’m reasonably sure most people here are actual people and not bots or paid actors.
wait, warm? cuddly? can you show me this magical fairy-tale corner of lemmy?
Warm and cuddly until you say something negative bout China or Russia, then they come hauling ass…
I could never understand how you could be attached to china’s government that intensely. their government has fully betrayed communism, so extensibly that tech giants with no public control, (control the public instead) are fully formed.
Edit: i forgot my original intent but I do want a discussion and not just a roast of led astray MLs.
And you are correct. Capitalism with beasty grin.
LLMs, useful idiots, and a couple effective propagandists overseeing the whole thing.
Yeah they’re a pretty fucking braindead group.
Putin is a militant pensioner from St. Petesbugrg garages. Fuck Putin.
Well, technically it is not negative about Russia. And I think I’ve yet not seen trolls from Olgino(or whereever they currently are)
im a woman of taste, i like butt they can haul all they want, see if i care
Or say something in support of conservative American policies. Or say something in support of organized religion.
Warm and cuddly right here my friend. Lemmy give you a hug!
now thats an attitude i can respect virtual hugs can work
Lemmy just point out that this comment is underrated.
You’re underrated!
Lol no Lemmy is just as bad as Reddit
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Not in my experience.
You can use the wayback machine to see how Reddit was at any point in the past. I was there from even before subreddits were a thing, and yeah it was pretty great. The fediverse does have a bit of that feel.
This is just how it seems to go, before reddit there was Digg, after Digg went down, everyone went to reddit, now that reddit is going down, people are migrating to alternatives, with Lenmy being the most prominent one right now. I think Lemmy’s ability to have multiple instances will help cement its popularity though
