I’ve got no problem with them, but these are obviously kids who grew up in a different age than me, and it shows, I know what could seem a joke to me could come off different to them. Especially this being In the trades and the type of jokes we make here. I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, we’re all trying to just get through the day after all
Edit: I have learned, they used to be female, transitioned to male. (So trans-masc? I’m probably messing that up) Lesbian, and non-binary, thankfully they brought it up which was very helpful as I wasn’t sure if it was appropriate to ask
Just start saying ‘they’ for everyone that’s work related. No matter on LGBT status.
Makes it easier to not fuck up.I already do this with because of how many people I know and work with that have names not exclusively used by men or women.
I work with enough foreigners that I almost HAVE to do this since I rarely see them face to face and have no real indicators aside from their name. If your name is 20 characters long and 18 of them are consonants, I’m gonna use “they” at work, just to avoid any undue offense. So far, if someone had a problem with me it was because of my employer, not my own words or behavior.
People are seriously downvoting this?? Hot dayum lemmy really is growing!
I assume op is English speaking, but just fyi this doesn’t work in every language, would make things a lot simpler.
It’s a good place to start. Sometimes a trans person wants gendered pronouns. But it’s better to use something neutral than to use the wrong one. I have always found that if you use the actual right pronouns, even once, it shows you are trying and that is appreciated forever.
þey
So misgender 95-99% of people? Okay then.
Probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to do something along the lines of stating upfront that “if anyone in the company does anything to offend you, please report it to the appropriate channels. You’ll have our full support. We’re here to get work done, not to make people feel bad”
You’re not likely going to say by accident something they haven’t heard before, or to offend them in a new and novel way, But establishing and occasionally reinforcing the fact that they don’t have to tolerate it, that putting up with abuse is not part of their job, and that they have the boss’s backing at the same level of the non-LGBTQ employees should they find themselves being abused or offended, would probably go a decent way in minimizing the risk of something actually bad happening.
“… and if I accidentally say or do something offensive, tell me and I’ll try to learn better.”
This whole thread is very good
please report it to the appropriate channels
Telling them that you personally will be there for them is really the only guarantee you can make without blindly relying on third parties to act with compassion. So telling them to come to you so that you can then together go through the rest of the process is imo the better idea. They can always choose to just ignore you, but making them go to some shitty HR office by themselves also sucks.
Yeah, I’d only encourage reporting if I knew 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person who would be taking the report is also an ally. And even then, I’d still hesitate to encourage it.
My workplace is… Interesting. I work in an arts department for an employer which doesn’t do a lot of art otherwise. Each department is managed by a specific person in HR. My department happens to be managed by a raging transphobe. We also happen to have the highest amount of trans people per capita than any other department… Because, ya know, art.
Our HR person requires that they use their deadname for all of their work stuff. Their work email uses the initials for their deadname. Their Windows username uses their deadname. Their RFID ID badge and name tag both use their deadname. Et cetera… She claims it is company policy to require official government names on everything.
Except it’s not. That policy doesn’t exist. It’s just something she makes up every time a trans person gets hired. There’s even someone in HR who uses a chosen name for all of their work stuff. They literally share an office. Our hiring manager has tried to go through or around this one specific transphobe multiple times, but gets bounced back to her every single time. Because apparently the “your department has a specific HR person” is a rule that is enforced throughout all of HR, but the deadname thing is only enforced by our specific HR person.
The hiring manager does what he can to insulate them from it, but there are certain things he can’t control. For instance, he orders them new custom name tags, so they don’t have to walk around with their deadname stuck to their shirt. But he can’t order new RFID ID badges, because those are printed by our IT department, and they use whatever name is in the system. He can’t change their windows username, or their work email address. To put things into perspective, our department is over 25% trans or nonbinary. That’s over 5x higher than any other department…
And what are those trans employees going to do? Go to HR to report it? As cops are fond of saying: “We have investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing.”
You’re not likely going to say by accident something they haven’t heard before, or to offend them in a new and novel way
Not OP, but you underestimate my foot in mouth capacity.
20 years ago, my sister was dating a jock. Real body builder type. Probably a bigger musclehead than most pro-wrestlers.
What I was trying to convay is that we should make a superhero costume for him to wear, and make a comic book out of it.
What was percieved instead is that he should run around town and suck everybodys nuts in his mouth for their approval.
I DARE you to try to connect how that came out so wrongly worded.
You can’t just leave us hanging like that, how did you word it?
You’re not a dick for getting someone’s pronouns wrong… You’re a dick if you intentionally and continuously misgender them on purpose.
I still mess up my sister’s spouse. They’re NB, but kept their name, hobbies, etc. To me, they’re the exact same awesome person they’ve always been, so I still screw up and call them by male pronouns.
I 100% support them, but I screw up and it feels bad.
Exactly. Sure it sucks when it happens by accident, but it’s to be expected to some extent. It’s when someone is doing it intentionally to fuck with you that it really gets under your skin. It’s disrespectful.
Im trans with over 10 years of experience in the industry
–
There’s really not a lot to it. We just want a basic level of respect and empathy. Respect their chosen names and pronouns, and don’t ask them random questions about being trans unless they’re open to it. Trust them when/if they talk about their experiences, they know more about themselves than you do. Reassure them that their job is a safe space.
Happy to answer any questions.
Edit: if you slip up on name/pronouns, simply apologize, correct yourself, and move on. We know people aren’t always trying to be malicious. Hell, my dad still slips up on my pronouns.
Im trans with over 10 years of experience in the industry
The… trans industry? How much does it pay?
And in what currency?
Unknown lip filler shots in the parking lot of a Church’s Chicken
Is one tradition IDK how today’s kids do it
Depends on who you ask
Treat them like anyone else by default and make accommodations if you need to and it’s reasonable.
You’re asking with good intentions, but the best answer for any group will always be that. Shit, not even by groups. On a human by human basis just do that, there’s a crazy amount of human variation and it’s not always obvious.
If you call somebody by their name, you can never mess up their gender.
Ok Alex, Shelby, Erin. Unless you mean like if you ignore the entire concept and rely solely on their name with no formalities.
I think they meant to just avoid using pronouns.
Which is an awkward and strange way to speak to people.
First of all, good for you for asking the question. I think many people are afraid to ask these things even if they want to be respectful and inclusive for fear of coming off as backward or ignorant, but I think asking questions in good faith shows that we’re willing to listen and learn.
But most importantly, just treat them with the same respect you’d treat anyone else! Gender identity isn’t really that big of a deal, and after you get to know some trans folks you’ll come to that realization quickly that they’re just regular people!
As a trans woman who routinely has to deal with “shop talk” my advice is that since theyre young explain the way that it works to them and let them know how to speak up when shit gets uncomfortable.
Cleaning it up and getting professional and polite would theoretically be great, but the fact is that their career will involve this and if everyone has to clean up their language resentment will build and people will just exclude them. Meanwhile everyone should feel comfortable saying “too far” or “hey you’re hitting a sore spot” or even “not cool”.
This is really truly the best advice.
I am a straight male. But by definition I’m gender fluid. I have endured through my life no end of abuse for this, and it’s nothing close to what my trans partners in the past have experienced.
But in the end, it comes down to having a spine and being able to assert yourself.
Especially in trades, there is no end of ball-breaking and risque dialogue. If you are not able to defend yourself or say okay dude the joking has gone far enough, you are not going to have a happy life and you need to find something else to do to make money.
If we live in the online reality where “ideal” behavior is constantly advocated and expected, we are never going to connect to the truth of life which is that bullshit is everywhere and we have to learn to stand up to it and flow with it.
Hey, Non-binary trans masc person in trades here.
I can tell you how I perceive different types of co-worker if it helps you want to dial in what it’s like on the other side of the experience. There’s layers to the whole situation and as non-binary folks we understand what we are asking for isn’t automatically going to click and requires people to figure us out.
First up : Most of us end of day aren’t going to rock the boat for anything less than fully agregious behaviour so calls to report other people for being mildly offensive are probably not actually going to go anywhere. Most of us are scared of being labelled “a problem” so we just take the hits when they come. If you are a boss and notice a non-binary person sticking closer to specific people and avoiding others there’s a good chance that they’ve found the people who are safe and avoiding ones who aren’t. A great accommodation that can invisibly help is just to recognize this strata and if a task nessesitates putting people together try and pair along these lines. A lot of co-workers wait until other people aren’t around to let their nastier behaviour shine.
Now to co-worker types. Aside from the full on transphobe or problem persons there’s a range of different stages of cool people.
The “I don’t really get it” Co-worker pays lip service to the polite aspects of using pronouns. They are the type to introduce you to others by misgendering you and then flap their hands and go “Oh no sorry ‘they’”. We know they don’t get it or don’t really care. The misgendering still hurts but they are fairly benign. They make these accidents non maliciously and are afforded grace. If they step in it we basically disregard because they aren’t really worth the effort of getting too comfortable around. We make these accommodations for strangers daily. Annoying but nessisary.
The “in training” co-worker is one whom is encountering their very first trans person. They want you to be their Obi wan and their enthusiasm is a bit of a double edged sword at times. It’s tiring to teach people to dance when they keep stepping on your feet but the job needs doing. Some of us veiw this as our own brand of service to the cause of normalizing ourselves more widely. Some of us just don’t want to be bothered. Either way, just wanting to learn is heaps better than ambivalence. If you fuck up something, don’t make a big deal about it. It’s not that you’re a terrible person and should have known better. Our stuff takes practice and we know it’s not intuitive.
The “A little too up in our shit” co-worker is excited to know the real you but looks at you as a beautiful creature in need of preservation. They might seek to advocate on your behalf or behind your back but the attempt is clumsy and often at odds with a non-binary person’s desire to just get through the workday as a regular human and not make waves. Good enthusiasm sure, we’re probably friends but for the love of God we’re adults and we can sort out our own shit if need be.
The “Understands the Assignment” co-worker is just comfortable to be around. They don’t have to be the most tuned in to all the nuance about our specific needs in ways we require more out of partners, family and friends but they treat our basic requirements as no big deal, maybe they occasionally ask questions to check in if they catch us struggling or reacting but aren’t going to narc to the boss on our behalf. They either avoid all stereotypes associated with sex or in the case of trans mascs/trans femmes they treat us like one of the boys/girls. Gold standard.
Good on ya for making an effort and being open to learning. I would buy you a beer if I could.
I’d be fine with you buying me a beer in their place.
Meet me at the bar this evening. If you show up, I’ll buy you a round.
Im omw 🫡
I’m trans, and have also worked with trans kids. Sometimes outed myself when it was safe - showing young trans men that yes, you can be a man.
It really comes down to “what name and pronouns would you me to call you by?”
If you want to go above and beyond: “would you like me to correct/step in for you if someone calls you by the wrong names/pronouns?” I feel this is a place where adult advocates can have good impact.
“Does your family know/should I use your legal name when talking to your family?”
See the child as a person who deserves dignity and respect, who is in a vulnerable position and does need unconditional support. Which is true for all children. You don’t have to put up a progress flag or wear a rainbow pin - these can certainly be very good things to do - but at the end of the day, just honor the child.
If you wanna go the extra mile, skimming an ally guide for 10 minutes, looking up some terminology and concepts, would reduce awkwardness by a fair bit. I certainly would have avoided a half dozen missteps if I did some reading.
This is super helpful, thank you!
I’m trans. To me the most important thing about jokes in the workplace is when a cis person says something that I can twist into being a deadpan trans joke (of varying riskiness depending on the group). Either the cis person will softlock while trying to determine the ethics of laughing or they’ll go for it and potentially apologize. It’s always a win in my book though
Just be yourself & be open. There’ll always be troublemakers on all sides
Im curious what could come off as a joke to you but would offend a trans person but not offend other (similarly aged) people.
If your joke might be offensive to anyone, its probably best to save it for outside of the workplace if you share it at all.
Not saying dont make any jokes, just that your jokes shouldn’t be referencing someones gender or appearance or at the expense of someone else in general.
Its impossible to know if your joke might be offensive to others when you live different lifestyles.
It’s like telling people not to serve food that might be prohibited by the religion of one of their dinner guests when they have never interacted with the religion before.
What OP does here is trying to educate himself, which is the right move, in my opinion.
If your joke might be offensive to anyone, its probably best to save it for outside of the workplace if you share it at all.
That’s not good advice. Any joke can be offensive to someone - especially when people are committed to being offended.
I get where you’re coming from, and we’ve all seen bad faith “advice” seeking (sea lioning), but also most of us have interacted with people who are well-meaning yet know they have tons of learned behaviors they’ve never needed to question.
For example, a friend had a boss in a male-dominated industry (construction) who, at the end of a client lunch with several cis men, bid them farewell with “bye ladies.” When they were back in the car she called him out on it “is ‘ladies’ supposed to imply something?” and he immediately admitted “dammit I know. I’m sorry.”
She knew he knew as he said it that it wasn’t the right thing and just hadn’t considered it before, but it took situations like that to make him consider it in advance. And it sounds like he did. She said he began to make eye contact to check his wording in meetings, which she took to indicate it being present in his mind, that he was actually trying.
I’m just saying asking and trying to consider little things in advance is ally behavior and should be encouraged unless it’s obviously in bad faith.
I didnt think the poster was in bad faith, i was just genuinely curious as im not really around environments like that these days so i kind of assumed it would be something sexist or creepy.
Ah understood. From the conscientious wording, I would guess that’s the sort of stuff they worked on quite a few years ago. But I’m wrong often enough, good looking out.
