Seems very much like indoctrination to get kids to “fall in line” and enforced conformity, to try to remove independent thinking.
I’ve always hated the idea of that. What do you think about it?
There are valid arguments for and against, but I really don’t think the word ‘authoritarianism’ is at all applicable here.
Definitely applicable.
Entire atmosphere feels a lot more weirder because everyone is forced to wear the same thing. Reminds me of when I was in China, where they forced little kids to wear the little red scarf, which symbolized communism.
In your example it can be. But if no nationalistic rationale is behind the uniforms that are worn than it’s not authoritarian.
So it can be but it’s not a given.
I think is preparation for a white collar job. Everyone in the office usually use a uniform and there is nothing wrong with that. I feel like it is an exaggeration
Exactly, preparing for wage slavery, by re-enforcing conformity and “don’t you dare step out of line” from a young age. Authoritarianism.
Btw, China is a State Capitalist regime.
So you want everyone in society to be rogue and fuck the system that keeps things moving? I will never understand this mindset dude.
For me, the uniform was liberating. People who wanted to bully me needed to find something more substantive than just my clothes. Bullies tend to be stupid, so this was hard for them.
If your individuality is all tied up in your physical appearance, try to develop your mind a bit. I am nonconformist in a thousand ways, each of which is more important than how i dress.
If your individuality is all tied up in your physical appearance, try to develop your mind a bit.
Kind of condescending, no? Also, they’re kids. Teenagers especially are all about their phsyical appearance… and their minds are developing.
I suppose it probably seems strange to an outsider but in a country where it’s the norm for every school, it didn’t feel like that to me at all. I see it more as an equaliser? In a way I also kind of miss not having to decide what to wear every day.
Honestly, my main concern about school uniforms is that I think they ought to be standardised and subsidised, because the expense can sometimes be a problem.
It’s only authoritarian if the teachers / administration also wear a similar uniform, but slightly different to denote rank.
Otherwise, it’s actually accidentally kind of socialistic, in that the divisions of class between your peers becomes less obvious, and there’s more cohesion with your fellow students versus those in authority. It’s easier for the students to rally together against something when they’re all wearing the same thing.
Otherwise, it’s actually beneficial to authoritarians to have no dress code, because student cliques would strengthen, and infighting would be more common.
For the USA, think about how both major parties use color to help separate people. If the colors of Democrats and Republicans were the same though, the division would be weaker.
Uniforms have historically been used to unify groups rather than to control them.
divisions of class between your peers becomes less obvious
Nope! Kids will always find ways around that.
Socialism isn’t the opposite of authoritarian. It’s always authoritarian to mandate uniforms, it has benefits as you and others have outlined but you are stripping people of their individuality and mandating what people can do that’s classic authoritarianism
I think there’s a line where mandates are authoritarian and where they aren’t, and it comes down the house beneficial for society or a group it is, but in particular also how exclusionary it is. Your view on determining it by face value is too simple for this.
For example, if you mandate only Hispanic kids to wear uniforms, by your logic, that is more moral and less authoritarian because less students are being made to wear a uniform as opposed to all of them.
Yet, it’s obvious that is not the case, despite fitting into your statement.
Likewise, individualism has limits before it’s simply chaos too, and therefore should also be looked as to what point it instead brings harm. People here have, for example, listed many reasons not having a uniform code can be detrimental as well (wealth class divisions, strengthening of cliques, weakening of the student body’s efforts against things an administration will do).
Not to mention, even in your call for a lack of uniforms, you are still technically imposing mandates: not only against those who do wish to have them, but likely against what people want to actually wear. I doubt you want students going in boxers or bikinis for example.
And lastly, I’d like to mention that socialism is counter to authoritarianism. Authoritarianism might use some socialist aspects sometimes, but socialism itself isn’t in the same spectrum as authoritarianism.
Mandates are authoritarian it is a governing body putting its authority on to you. It’s the literal definition here is a dictionary definition if it helps
It’s also authoritarian to mandate don’t commit murder or don’t steal.
This is a mandate from a governing body that strips away freedoms that previously existed. No idea where this idea of morality is coming from but it sounds like you might be mixing up fascism with authoritarianism. Fascism is an extreme form of authoritarianism with a heavy right wing influence as well.
I am not calling for a lack of uniforms
Socialism has a state which makes mandates upon those it has power over again text book authoritarianism but THAT DOESNT MEAN ITS BAD
I am not saying all authority is bad as it is needed but if you make a sliding scale of how much authority a governing body has and you take a neutral scenario like a school and you add a mandate that forces students to follow a specific dress code that’s a sliding of the scale to auth and away from anarchy
School uniforms level the outward socioeconomic presentation of students.
If it weren’t school uniforms, then the oppositional-defiant disorder would present in some students another way. Not statistically relevant.
My post history and reputation will back that I am left as fuck, but I love uniforms because I hate clothes and all the stupid ass stipulations society has purposely and inadvertently put on them. Spending any more than 5 secs selecting what’s gonna cover me for the day is already too long.
Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate all the ideological arguments made against them, and don’t counter them, I simply yearn to live in a world where we’re ALL on the same team and working together, and what one wears means fuck and all.
Then we should work towards the goal that every kid has enough so they can wear whatever they want and it being accepted by the others rather then going the shortcut with uniforms and robing the kids, who want to express them self through cloths, of that choice.
False dichotomy.
and it being accepted by the others
You can change policy, but it’s extremely hard to change people. Burying your head in the sand and pouting that people should be the ones to change is going to achieve nothing.
Imo it’s much better than a cult of clothing brands.
Funny enough, my US schools didn’t regulate shoes, so kids would just get thousand-dollar designer shoes and “show off” anyways. Also, backpacks are not regulated. You could get bullied if your shoes or backback looks “cheap”.
Also, the Android vs iPhone thing.
I work in schools. Pre-uniforms, there were so so many girls who arrived in appropriate clothes and then removed the top layer. Children shouldnt wear clothes to school that are more revealing than what you’d see in a bar. Social media teaches them that the goal is attention and it doesn’t matter if it’s positive or negative.
I was actually going to say I hated how misogynistic teachers were at school when it came to any dress code. They hyper focused on what girls were wearing, were their straps too narrow, were their shorts/skirts too high, etc. I have had teachers harass me about my clothes during my entire schooling starting from elementary school. We are drilled into us that our bodies are too revealing, scandalous, and dirty, so we should be ashamed. But then you become an adult and no one really gives a fuck what you wear. The only place that cares is where you end up working, and that can really be anything ranging from a fast food uniform to a suit to whatever you want to wear, etc. I’m not sure what your age is, but schools have made girls feel responsible for how other boys and men feel about their clothes since before social media. It’s our fault for being a “distraction” and ruining the learning environment. I had a male teacher fixate on me at one point, he said he turned his a/c on 24/7 to force all the girls to cover up but when I wouldn’t since I liked the a/c then it became his mission to stop lessons to tell me to cover up aka put a jacket on and make a big deal if I did not have one that day. Your comment reminded me of that teacher, and how much I was slut-shamed because my tank tops revealed my shoulders - gasp!
Oh absolutely can be, and is absolutely often used as such.
However, as usual depends on the context. Properly subsidized it can help students not only gave greater pride in their appearance and success in classes if you aren’t having to worry about not getting good clothes or any that fit properly.
On the other hand it can be cripplingly over expensive and cheap ass.
Soccer uniforms have to be same color too it’s not “authoritarianism.”
Also idk about psychology but just a tiny bit of cohesion is much better over extreme individualism no?
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Americans had “unity” after 9/11
Uh, no we didn’t. Source: am American, lived through that period.
Yes we had a brief period of unity (and solidarity with NYC) following 9/11, but as soon as the American War Machine woke up, my country was intensely divided.
And even then I am assuming muslim Americans were still left out on that small period of unity.
In elementary school we had a cheap (literally cheap, 5 euro) uniform that covered everything so it would protect the underneath clothes from inks, foods, spills. Also it didn’t matter if someone wore some expensive clothes as they were covered.
I noticed immediately from the first days in high school how something like that would have been useful as bullies would pick anyone about their clothing appearance. So there was an “unofficial” uniform, if you didn’t wear a brand name sweater then you were a loser to bully.
Now, I saw the elite schools uniform, expensive shirt under an expensive cardigan and a tie… that is ridiculous and I feel a way to take more money from the rich families as the expensive uniform can be bought only from them and need to purchase multiple sets to wear over a week
They’re definitely a form of oppression.
I’d say school in general is a form of authoritarianism. Take a look at US schools compared to schools in North Korea, and they are extremely similar.
Idk about North Korea but I went to school in mainland China and I definitely notice a lot of similarities.
China does a ceremony where they raise the flag ceremonies every week and sing national anthem every day, they do this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Pioneers_of_China
The US also does national anthems and pledge of allegiance.
Very similar rituals. Both teaches obedience. To mold people into wage slaves, to always obey your future employers.
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I mean, there does seem to be A LOT of people that have weird feelings about the stereotypical Japanese schoolgirl uniform. Really creepy. Wouldn’t surprise me to hear about similar things happening around the world.
I think it’s more of an extension of the teenager fetish. School uniforms are something only school-aged children and teens wear regularly, so it’s become a trait associated with them.
There’s also some scenarios that are less problematic (at least imo). Some people have a general uniform fetish (cops, nurses, etc). And sometimes couples that want to roleplay themselves as students.
That being said, yeah there’s definitely some creepy fucks that can’t stop staring at teenagers. But I don’t think getting rid of student uniforms would put a noticable dent in it. That ship has already sailed. Keep in mind that french-style maid dresses aren’t really a thing anymire, and people still fetishize that. I doubt the school uniform fetish will go away even if every school in the world did away with them
In my experience it seemed like uniforms were kinda another grift. You gotta buy everything just so from this specific place and you might never wear any of it again afterwards. I also got in trouble fairly frequently for accidentally having some part of my uniform out of order, which had more to do with forgetfulness or neurodivergence than anything.
At the same time, I didn’t really feel like it interfered with my ability to think critically or independently, but that might just be me. I was always weird enough that anyone who would have bullied me over clothes would’ve bullied me over other stuff, and my head was in the clouds anyway so I hardly noticed what I was wearing.
If anything, perhaps things like that biased my thinking in a libertarian direction, out of rebellion. It’s very easy to think that way when you’re young, and tired of parents and teachers telling you what to do.
My mind works differently from most people’s and my experiences may be atypical. But when I googled for studies I found mixed results, it doesn’t appear that there are conclusive results showing a correlation between uniforms and academic performance.
In any case, I think it’s that big of a deal. It is messed up, generally speaking, how little control kids have over their lives in the US and how people’s intrensic motivation is often killed off and they’re pushed around by extrensic motivators, rather than cooperating with what they actually want. I would say that uniforms can potentially contribute to that larger problem.
Schools in my area had a dress code, and my school almost succeeded at requiring a select jacket model as a must (done by a single local company connected to a school admin, wink-wink), but faced backlash over poor price/quality balance 🙃
One of the unusual upsides, many men well in their 20s, who otherwise couldn’t be bothered, had their high school formal suits to wear on future funerals and weddings. I was one of them and that was handy.
If the uniform should be there, to ensure it’s not hostile, it may be:
- Of basic rules. Formal dresses, dark under the waist line, white over it.
- Civilian models, without a glimpse of cop/military details and ranks, insignias.
- Common to everyone without any color differentiation (and requirements to buy it in exact shade of a color).
- Rather cheap or even subsidized, shared from older to younger kids, because children are frequently growing out of them and it’s a bummer to buy ten+ sets of dresses.
- Purposely unisex and non-sexualized models.
