Online threats to children are real, but the headlong pursuit of age verification that we’re seeing around the world is unacceptable in its approach and far too broad in scope — and we simply can’t afford to get this wrong.
To be clear, parents’ concerns are valid and sincere. Few people would argue that kids should have unfettered access to adult material, to self-harm how-tos, to social media platforms that manipulate them and expose them to abuse.
But it’s the very depth of those worries that is being cynically exploited. Age verification as is currently being proposed in country after country would mean the death of anonymity online.
And we know exactly who stands to gain: The same tech giants who built the privacy nightmare that the internet is today.
He has a vested interest in saying that, but he’s right, and it would be awful
It’s interesting what people expect of Proton Mail. I’ve used it for a long time but for only one reason really: their revenue stream is my subscription and not ads. I’ve never even given a second thought to all their encryption claims. Even with Proton Mail if I ever wanted to send a “secret” email I’d wrap the content in my own personal keys.
With respect to IP addresses of email logins, I’m surprised they ever claimed they don’t have logs. You’ve always been able to review the IP of a login through the web UI as far as I remember. Was the idea that that was also supposed to be encrypted?
Personally I’m OK with them complying with court orders, but I understand that “the definition of criminal is state defined” and that poses serious issues. It kinda seems like if you want to do something that could be considered criminal at some point in your life by your country you should consider something other than a 3rd party email provider for those messages. Signal would be a step up in that regard if you still wanted to use a third party.
It’s interesting what people expect of Proton Mail.
It’s quite mundane actually: people expect what they advertise on their front page.
Their advertising is a stretch at the best of times, and (as seen on my first link) so terrible that it needs to be removed at other times.
Lol, ok, fair.
I guess I see a lot of wiggle room in the marketing speak of their page and I haven’t actually “looked in to” Proton Mail’s claims in a loooong time. So I guess what I really wanted to say is that it’s interesting to me that people take that marketing at face value if they’re actually trying to maintain secrecy. I’ve always just taken it as a given that third party services aren’t particularly good at that, especially as they grow in complexity like Proton has. Signal has been easier for me to believe because of the singular focus and the reputation of the founder in the crypto community; although I guess he’s long gone.
They have to comply with court orders. You can’t run a business and ignore the government and legal system; they will throw the book at you.
Don’t use proton to do anything that could be considered a crime in the EU.
This sounds like something you should take up with Proton’s marketing: “Outside of US and EU jurisdiction”
Make social media unprofitable instead of this.
Man, parents not wanting anything to do with their kids’ upbringing will believe anything, huh. They’d rather offload any and all responsibilities to automation than spend one minute teaching kids how to protect themselves.
Then again, they probably don’t know, either.
I think you’re correct in both aspects for sure. Parents are certainly less involved, for the most part, in informing their kids of literally anything. It is much easier to ‘offload any and all responsibilities’ as you put it. iPad kids are a good example of this. Handing a 2yr old a video device and walking away is not parenting. This is an issue with many many topics from internet safety, to general life things, to talks about their bodies. Parents do not want to parent.
I’d also agree, largely, the parents just don’t know, or care. Privacy is, unfortunately, a niche thing to know and care about.
I see this as more like the patriot act- gover ent and big tech are pushing to elevate concerns of “the children’s safety” to violate our privacy and sell data. Same way the patriot act is so you can “keep all the evil bad man terrorists” at bay but really it’s an excuse to violate our rights “legally” in the name of “safety”.
It seems like a pretty common thing for people to expect that the luxuries of modern technology include not having to do anything you don’t want to, including being present for your own life.
People make self-destructive choices every day. (insert “always have been” 🌏🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀)
There’s two ways to view what you just said there. Parents aren’t parenting, but you can’t speak for someone elses emotions about it. And it’s more constructive to a problem (rather than adding to it) to ask why, to figure out what’s happening, with compassion, so as to help it be repaired.
Here’s another example, drug addicts, quite often you will hear people judging and shaming their behaviours, without asking why, or looking at their choices with compassion and an eye to repair the problems for them. Most often, very very abused children, grow up to self medicate their internal agony, caused by what they’ve lived through. You wouldn’t then choose locking them up in jail to help repair.
You’re talking about kids, maybe some of them go on to be these same drug addicts.
I would suggest this whole problem with the unsupervised parenting / disconnected parenting is capitalism. And it’s by design.
People have kids (mostly) because they want them, they love them. I would argue very few would want to be parenting poorly. So why are they?
Could it be that there’s no opportunity to stay home and raise kids. Raising kids, is work, and it is hard work, has been so hugely devalued, intentionally, so as to be able to remove it as needing space in people’s lives. Who thinks it’s admirable to stay home and raise kids? That is an opinion that has been societally planted, to serve the bourgeois.
Actual paid work, who can live without working? Multiple jobs, even. That’s also by design.
Capitalism also designed this system we are all currently using, of a family in a singular home. It wasn’t like that, previously. So no village, no desperately needed support for raising kids.
Jobs burn you out, we aren’t designed to live like this, but there’s little to no flexibility, and parenting burns you out, and theres little to no support for that, now. Who has energy left after that, to also find all the ways in which tech is attacking this week.
I would argue, partially, the solve for poor parenting, would be to start rolling out some guillotines.
But also, raising a kid is supposed to be the job of a village, I’m sure you’ve heard that. To be a good parent, you need a full tank, but all the avenues for refilling your tank have been removed.
We should all care about fixing this, it is our next generation. I don’t believe hating on the singular parents trapped in this hellhole, is the answer.
I have siblings like that. Literally never seen them parent. I’ve changed more of their kids’ diapers than I have seen them do, and I have no kids. It’s kind of irritating in an understatement kind of way. My poor niblings
But look at you, being the village, awesome job, stepping in and helping them grow up to be rounded little people. I have 7 niblings, and they’re all a mix of neurodivergence, I’ve been gathering them all and taking them to events and teaching them, playing with them, since day dot. Even though I have kids of my own. It’s so hugely necessary to be in the kids in your life, lives, like that. You can’t parent from an empty cup, and the ability to refill that cup has been removed from us. You taking that time, also gives time for the parents to recharge. You’re amazing, keep it up!
Anyone think that’s not the point?
“Age Verification” is just them attaching “THINK OF THE CHILDREN” to their push to have every single bit of information about every person on the planet.
All the more ironic when you realise that some of the big businessmen and lobbyists pushing for mandatory age verification checks are in the Epstein Files. Basically the kind of people who you don’t want to be thinking of the children…
Social media functions as a kind of gatekeeper for public interactions, not unlike credit scores, driver’s licenses, and college degrees. The absence of a presence on social media is not only socially debilitating (you’re cut out of the information stream for local events and public amenities) but a red-flag for college recruiters and employers. It’s much like how not using a credit card regularly in your teens/20s impacts your ability to access low-interest lending in your 30s/40s. Or not having a driver’s license interferes with your right to vote.
State officials have been searching for a kind of uniform, iron-clad, easily verifiable public ID for ages. Linking your online presence (a thing that you need for a myriad of daily tasks) to your ID becomes a pathway to this goal. Universal, non-transferable digital ID becomes a wicked two-edged sword as it both exhaustively tracks the “documented” individuals and neatly severs the “undocumented” from society.
Na bro social media is nothing like credit score. You’re totally fine not having facebook, all these municipalities have websites, you don’t need social media for anything.
And even credit scores, you just want it for like two years before buying a home, it’s no problem at all especially in contrast to the challenge of actually saving up enough money to buy a home.
State officials have been searching for a kind of uniform, iron-clad, easily verifiable public ID for ages
What are you talking about? People have been voting, paying taxes, applying for driver’s licenses, for ages online, they all have usernames and passwords with uploaded proof of ID for their online government transactions.
Na bro social media is nothing like credit score.
You might want to talk to folks in recruiting or HR. Everyone checks your social media history when they’re evaluating you.
Exactly, i dont have them so they can’t. It can only hurt you if you have embarassing stuff.
i dont have them so they can’t
“Please provide any social media as part of your application”
“Haha. Well, guess what, dipshits. I don’t have any. Checkmate!”
Sound of resume hitting the bottom of the trash can
Well idk somehow ive stayed employed my whole adult life, including one fortune 500 company so i guess im really lucky
Hey, it’s the Internet. You can aim higher.
Say you’re the CEO next time.
Clearly this man is a genius.
Anyone who could not see that Trump was going to extort business for his own personal gain was clueless to Trump and his cabinet of blackmailers.
Anyone of color giving support to White Nationalists is fucking insane and shows a complete lack of understanding of current US politics.
Yeah, but the vast majority are so far beyond clueless they voted for him, again.
The nightmare trap of the Two Party System is that you can look at one party cozying up to Big Tech (Obama in 2009) and conclude the other party must be reflexively in opposition.
Trump was fully surrounded by Thiel goons before he’d even left office in '21. And the relationship only got tighter with his Elon Musk Bromance. But hey, if you’d just elected Kamala Harris and
Liz CheneyTim Walz to the White House, I’m sure nobody would be talking about how much of their cabinet was stuffed with Silicon Valley cutouts.It’s not like a cartel of trillionaires can buy up both parties at once, right?
Sort of, but my point is he made a specific point of praising a demented rapist and lauding the pedophile party as heroes. Silicon Valley cutouts that support Democrats commit the unforgivable sins of praising diversity or working to solve climate problems. They’re not surveilling hospitals for ICE. This guy loves trump because he believes trump has any opinion or knowledge of tech monopolies.
Tone deaf doesn’t cover it. If he sold shoes, it’d be one thing. But he jumped head first into the cesspit for no reason other than he believed it.
And so, even though our opinions on age verification coincidentally align, he can fuck right off.
he made a specific point of praising a demented rapist and lauding the pedophile party as heroes
He made a point of praising a President’s pick for the Antitrust Division of the DOJ. He didn’t praise Trump and he certainly didn’t praise pedophilia.
Slater’s tenure at DOJ was short-lived and unremarkable. So feel free to mock Yen on those grounds. But this has dick all to do with Epstein. It has nothing to do with the bloated ICE budget (which received bipartisan approval) or the assorts nightmarish cabinet appointments, many of which enjoyed supermajority support in the Senate (Rub’em All Out Rubio was appointed unanimously ffs).
he jumped head first into the cesspit for no reason other than he believed it.
He’s a Tech Goon and Trump had a ton of Tech Goons on his team. These people aren’t partisan, they’re corporate lemmings. By 2028, I’m sure Yen will be lining up to brown nose the incoming Dem administration. By 2032, he’ll be back on Team R, shocked at how the party that did everything Tech wanted has betrayed his customers again. Oh, and incidentally, insisting that the only way to protect yourself from Mean Old Big Government is by upping your Proton License to Double Super Secure.
And so, even though our opinions on age verification coincidentally align, he can fuck right off.
He’s endorsing the poison so he can sell the antidote.
He didn’t praise Trump and he certainly didn’t praise pedophilia.
Disagree. “Great job Mr. president!” is praising trump, and praising trump is praising pedophile protectors. It’s noteven a big leap, or unconfirmed rumors. We have multiple witness accounts to his actions and nothing has been done - legally- following the initial release of many documents.
It has nothing to do with the bloated ICE budget (which received bipartisan approval) or the assorts nightmarish cabinet appointments, many of which enjoyed supermajority support in the Senate
Also disagree. Eighth-graders know what trump is about. Andy Yen knows what trump is about. Corruption, fascism, incompetence. Yeah let’s send a hoo-rah tweet to my (whatever # followers)
(Rub’em All Out Rubio was appointed unanimously ffs).
Yeah that’s disgusting. Although I assumed he was just stupid and corrupt, not flat out evil as has revealed himself to be.
These people aren’t partisan, they’re corporate lemmings.
He’s both. There’s no non-partisan support of trump, he’s made sure of it.
By 2028, I’m sure Yen will be lining up to brown nose the incoming Dem administration. By 2032, he’ll be back on Team R, shocked at how the party that did everything Tech wanted has betrayed his customers again.
Yeah, that’s probably right, but all the reason I’m kicking him to the curb now.
Crazy I was screamed at on Reddit for pointing out this guys hypocrisy. Glad I left his miserable platform.
Proton Mail Says It’s “Politically Neutral” While Praising Republican Party
lol
How long before we get a Meshtastic style, decentralized internet?
What can I, as a regular guy, do to help make this happen?
I know you mean a Meshtastic style internet in general. But this is too fascinating to not share. Meshtastic is amazing:
Meshtastic does seem very cool
While Meshtastic is great, I believe Reticulum has a more suitable approach for this: https://reticulum.network/
I definitely agree. Meshtastic has its uses but being a wide area network replacement is not one of them. Reticulum seems to be the mesh we all want and the technology is here, we just need to organize to make it happen.
Wifi HaLow is a bit closer to capable of early 00s internet speeds while reaching 1km, meshtastic and mescore reach 100x further and are good enough for text but not really capable of any media.
More people need to adopt both, here’s hoping.
“Could” is a funny way of saying “are obviously intended to”. Stop playing around, call it out directly. Points where you must have your ID checked are, in fact, ID checkpoints.
This whole conversation is such a false dichotomy. The laws can absolutely be written such that companies are required to suspend service to any suspected child without requiring ID to use the service.
But just like pollution and everything else we’ve let them push the buck to us.
The problem is that politicians don’t want to legislate enforcement/oversight entities as those would piss off their owners.
Democracies need to replace their lame duck politicians with ones that aren’t bought and owned by the shareholder class who also own the social media corporations.
The laws can absolutely be written such that companies are required to suspend service to any suspected child without requiring ID to use the service.
The laws shouldn’t focus on “harming children” so much, but on “harming humans”.
The big tech companies should be held responsible for the actual damage they are inflicting upon society, and their methods to artificially inflate “engagement” (or whatever the hell they call it) should be held to scrutiny. Whether or not the damage is inflicted upon an underage person or an adult, is merely a distraction.
Those assholes would love it if we all had to identify ourselves and prove our age, if it means they get to keep inflicting their shit upon us.
I agree but like that’s a much bigger discussion.
I think there is an immediate opportunity to mitigate harm in the long term that doesn’t require us finding a perfect solution to corporate-greed(capitalism).
Similar to how prohibiting tobacco sales to minors has drastically reduced the number of smokers. Ask anyone over 70 when they started smoking. Almost all of them started when they were young teenagers.
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That’s quite obviously the end goal here.
It bothers me that we know that this bullshit has nothing to do with the kids and is probably being lobbied by the genocide gang and AI companies, even more that it has become obvious that the only value AI has is mass monitoring, but nobody abords the real issue. We are playing their book.
99.9% navigate the system and grow up perfectly fine, or fine enough. We shouldn’t have to completely surrender our anonymity for the tiny percentage that went wrong.
Before the Internet, some people got weird, and in the Internet era, some people are going to go weird. Age verification isn’t going to change that.
This isn’t about the kids. We all know it.
Kids don’t have unfettered access if they are supervised, lol. And age gating will fail regardless. So it’s a failure followed by another failure, sigh.
Indeed, unfettered in a literal sense cannot happen even with the most minimum supervision, but regardless of the threshold in parenting (I am not going to pardon parents responsibility on this, but good luck asserting 100% supervision), circumventions will always take place, so with more reason it cannot be used the “kids safety” argument to bring Orwellian levels to everybody’s lifes
just out of curiosity, what do you consider minimum supervision to be?
The theoretical minimum would be sharing any instant of their lives, during which they could not sustain an unfettered access to anything, not like I would consider it a decent minimum in any case (I was revolving around the “unfettered access” concept of the previous comment), but I cannot imagine how it would exists any threshold of supervision above which you can exclude any unfettered access at any given moment of their existence, risk of harmful exposition never drops to zero, so argue an Orwellian measure for the indiscriminate shake of their safety has no sense to me…
Maybe Kaczynski had a point by running off to the woods and living in a cabin.
Let’s just go all the way back to Walden pond.
No that’s too far I like espresso. How about the coffee shop half a block from Walden?
“It’s for the KIDS, you COMMIE!”
It’s time we stop accepting that rationalization as valid.
Theres a big wide internet beyond apps and social media.
that space is already pretty much dead, at least here in germany. If you create your own website, you need to have a valid legal notice. if you set up a web forum, you’re liable for everything that gets posted there.
This is basically FUD. Pick a different jurisdiction if your own country are assholes. Its very easy to participate in the small corners of the internet. Just don’t expect to commercialize it and its easy.
this is not fud. as long as the website is accessible in germany and is not purely private (content only accessible by friends and family), a valid legal notice is required. fines can be up to 50k €.
Stating the obvious.
META was a major lobbyist for all of the state bills we’ve seen so far. There’s probably more. Or META is taking the lead because most hate them already, which provides a nice distraction from anyone else involved.
Tech and data centers want our data. What better way for a complete data set is there? I’m sure Palantir is in there somewhere.
