Something I’ve always wondered is what kind of women were in the lives of incel men when they were young. Did they have a bad relationship with their mother? Did they lack sisters or other female family members? Or is their family situation irrelevant? Maybe some particular situation in their early years caused them to develop a complex around women?
I think boys and men have serious issues in our society that are not getting the attention they need. This along with changing social structures leaves some men behind. And they turn to the dark corners of the internet where other men just like them seem to care about them, and seem to have the same problems as them.
Boys and men are falling behind in schools and universities. Many colleges that have affirmative action are now having to use it to boost enrollment for men. Many of these rules were originally meant to increase numbers for women.
Women and girls have issues that society needs to help them with, and often times these issues get a lot more attention and are met with sympathy and understanding.
Whereas sometimes for men’s issues, the base reaction of society is to say stop crying and be a man. Men asking for help in and of itself is generally seen as not a manly thing to do.
This is an oversimplification of the issues, but just making fun of incels without trying to understand where they are coming from is probably not the best strategy to get them the help they need.
This in turn, leads them to start listening to men like Andrew Tate and other asshats.
The important part of the word incel is the “in”—their situation is involuntary. They don’t have the skills or ability to change without help.
Most do- they just think they’re entitled enough not to have to life a finger. It’s entirely voluntary for most of them.
I have a friend who has slid into a lifestyle that is incel adjacent (he’s not quite fully rage filled against women yet), and I find that it is hard to determine what is voluntary and what isn’t. He is fully capable of getting a job or a girlfriend, but his worldview is so warped by depression and anxiety that he simply self sabotages any opportunity to have those things. He suffers greatly and blames himself a lot, but he is also the only thing that is ever standing in his way.
He doesn’t lift a finger to work unless forced, but observing him over the years has led me to believe that it is all a product of severe anxiety. There is no chance of failure if you never try, and it’s easier to act arrogant than it is to constantly reveal how much you actually hate and doubt yourself.
Sadly, there’s not much you can do for someone like that other than continue to be honest and hope it seeps in. Sometimes I feel like Brandon Novak waiting on Bam Margera to be ready for help, but I still have hope that he’ll see the light one day. Under all that negativity, he is still a worthwhile person.
You left a comment above saying that there are no cultural elements that contribute to people becoming incels. You need to have some more empathy for people, as long as they aren’t hurting others
I have zero empathy for people with self-inflicted conditions.
I listened to an interview with a woman who did an in-depth study of the loose coalition of websites and social media personalities of which the incel movement is a part. She described it as “funnel shaped,” which is to say that they don’t start with the darkest, most unhinged language. They start by talking to young men who feel lonely and rejected, and they talk about how they shouldn’t feel bad about being men, how they deserve respect and status, and then it goes on from there down the rabbit hole into the really depraved stuff.
The reason this works is because a lot of young men don’t hear those initial encouraging words in a lot of other places. They hear a lot about toxic masculinity and the harm of the patriarchy, and they feel like their identities are being targeted, and they don’t have a lot of positive healthy male role models to turn to.
We need to have ways of talking to men, especially young men, about how they should feel good about themselves, how they should be proud of the good things they can do in the world, how they should be the best versions of themselves that they can be, and all of that in ways that don’t lead down that dark road to toxicity. It’s an incredibly wide ranging problem, and it’s not going to be easy to fix.
This ⬆️ 💯 great take.
I would just like to say, that society didn’t just start “caring more about women’s issues over men’s issues” overnight. To get society to give a shit about women at all has been a constant, centuries-long battle fought by various feminists.
It’s not the effect of society “caring more about women” necessarily that you’re seeing, it’s the direct impact of a loooooong battle for recognition. I think that men could benefit from the same thing, because there are a lot of problems that men also face because of the same patriarchy that women face. The be strong, don’t show emotion, being to close to another man is gay type of rhetoric is extremely harmful.
When done in a good-faith way that’s not a disguised attempt to roll-back women’s rights as some men’s rights discussions can sometimes be, I (a feminist woman) am a huge advocate for healing our boys and men. Obviously changing the way we parent boys will help, but it also takes communities of already-grown men themselves to come together to do that work on themselves, as with any self-improvement.
Very interesting. I checked your claim and you’re right https://hechingerreport.org/an-unnoticed-result-of-the-decline-of-men-in-college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in/
What gets me is that the discourse around incels is forcibly centered on how they effect women, when it should be focussed on the societal problems that turned those men that way in the first place. But it’s not palettable to discuss the issue unless women are given the victimhood role.
It’s much like how every year funds raised for breast cancer research are an order of magnitude more than funds raised for prostate cancer research, even though more men die of it than women do of breast cancer. Both are worthy of funding, but they’re certainly not treated equally.
Men not getting the sex they feel entitled to is not a societal problem. It’s a male problem. Noone is entitled to sex and men need to learn that.
You’re confusing cause and effect, but I suspect you already know that due to your gross generalisation.
I don’t understand your point but prostitution is legal in some places.
The mens issue being talked about is involuntary celibacy and that is not feminists problem to solve. Nor should sex workers have to deal with misogynists.
Men’s issues and women’s issues are problems for society to solve together. Feminists can do whatever they do. Doesn’t change anything that society needs to work together to solve.
Okay, we’re going to continue not having sex with sexist entitled incels then. You’re not entitled to our bodies to “fix” this issue.
You do you I suppose.
There’s no real blanket statement for this. It will always be anecdotal evidence.
My anecdotal evidence is that incels I’ve met tend to be men who were always turned away by women for being weird in one way or another. This can be never bathing, weird anime obsessions, never holding a job because they perceive themselves as above it, etc. And because of this constant spurring of them and depression or anxiety they start to blame whatever they can. They see being in a relationship with a women as what would make them happy, but women don’t want them. So it must be the women’s fault. From there they just go further and further down the rabbit hole.
All anecdotal by the way and in no way is this a blanket every incel statement.
Also: There are people who still believe women to be property. I have family like this, who are sex offenders, that still justify their actions to this day.
Pretty much boils down to women having too much autonomy, at least to my sex offender family members.
I’m sure you can guess what side of the political isle they were raised on. lmao
It’s stuff like this that makes me think all girls should be pulled aside at an early age and taught no holds barred knife fighting and then given a very sharp knife to carry visibly at all times.
Hahahaha I don’t know about that, as much as I DO agree with it.
That same family I mentioned in my last comment are the same ones who say shit like, “I WISH someone would break into my house so I can SHOOT AND KILL THEM”
I can see a world where women fight back, men kill them in “self-defense” and that is upheld by the misogynistic legal system, and the rapist murderers go free.
But again, I do agree with your sentiment.
Besides, we all know the answer is to take all the rapists and all the murderers and put them all together on an island and all the murderers can be raped, and all the rapists can be murdered, until you only have either two rapists or you’re down to one raped murderer, but who cares about him?
That’s how you create a super murderapist
Yeah, we do have to much Judge Dredd syndrome, that’s for sure.
Stop spreading bizarre, dangerous ideas like this. Weapons should be carried concealed whenever possible.
Well, obviously they will have a second, shaper knife concealed as well.
Isn’t it mostly the appearance?
It can be, but I’ve met some decent looking guys who were incels. I think most I’ve seen tend to initially put off women because before full blown incel they already have a warped perception of women. Some I’ve seen are also just downright narcissistic. It can be a lot of different things.
I see, I thought appearance is the biggest factor. Maybe it’s just local thing around me.
… Did you just ignore their entire paragraph where they included reasons these guys have been rejected?
They can be fugly on top of that
I had incel like behaviour for a while when I was younger I had a pretty normal family and upbringing, but I spent a lot of time online I really resonated with the “nice guys” memes of the late 2000s - I genuinly believed that I was really nice and that no one saw it because they were “sluts” (which they totally weren’t and it’s shocking that I thought that) and that they only liked guys who were sporty I was good in school, I got good grades and I think I leaned into the trope shown in media where the smart guy is always a jerk, so that didn’t help I had nerdy hobbies too and would assume women in those spaces were fake nerds, when really they were more nerdy than me!
I’m so glad I matured out of that headspace, I hate the person I was - but tldr I think the nice guy memes were a big influence, and while they’re not as widespread now, they are on some corners of the Internet
Honestly I have doubts it’s related to female exposure; I grew up in a family of men, my mom was the only woman in the entire house and had her own bathroom. She was an oncology nurse and worked crazy hours. I learned more about women dating women than I ever did from hints and lessons from Mom. I’m more inclined to think it’s related to the men in their lives and the examples they set in their interactions with women. The men online who shovel misogyny and bullshit about alpha men are doing more harm to the male sex than anything else I’ve seen.
I mean, my wife has a bunch of sisters. Her little brother is an incel. Both of our families are all kinds of fucked up tho it’s kind of what growing up in a cult does to you
The only person I know who qualifies for ‘incel’ has an amazing mom. I don’t think this one is on females.
Maybe it’s on the incels themselves, mostly. Not to be rude and not including those with severe mental disorders but life is hard and everyone is mostly the result of your own choices. If we constantly create excuses and look for someone else to blame for this particular group, I think we do them more harm than good.
Assume nothing. You only know the mom’s public facing image. People can be entirely different in private.
I assume nothing, only what I can judge with my own eyes. She’s not why he’s an incel. But thanks for your concern.
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How about the appearance, I believe that would be much more relevant.
It’s not really, in my experience. That’s a very common thing for incels to focus on in their forums, but if you actually talk to most women, a good personality can be much more attractive than appearance. Appearance helps, but it’s not the only thing. Focus on dressing well, proper hygiene, and developing kindness (not nice-guy niceness), and you will already be so far ahead of the game you have no idea.
I actually recall talking with some girls. I know it’s anecdotal, but many of them explicitly said that they prefer appearance to personality. Some girls even said height-elevating shoes is what they hate the most. (And they care a lot about height)
How old were they, by chance? Most women I know are old enough to have learned that looks are not everything. I’m sure men learn the same as they mature. Of course, there are assholes everywhere, which is why personality is so important.
If you find someone you like and they have a good personality, hold onto them tight. It’s worth so much more. Lust fades, love you grow together lasts and lasts.
They were 19 years old IIRC.
If you look up studies on “incels” you’ll find most report that incels have an incredibly high rate of mental health disorders, mostly untreated and sometimes undiagnosed. Issues like depression, anxiety, and autism are very common. These mental health issues affect their ability to form social connections which can eventually lead to inceldom where they surround themselves with other incels and feed off each other. I read one study that called this “tendency for interpersonal victimhood (TIV)”.
Upbringing could certainly have an effect on people’s mental health, but not everyone with mental health issues is an incel. Becoming an incel is an extra step only some take and I don’t think anyone truly knows how it happens.
“tendency for interpersonal victimhood (TIV)
I found that paper. Its in interesting read, but it only seemed tangentially related to incel behavior. It seemed much more focused on something like…the arguments that “white supremacists” use.
I found the paper again. It’s this one
Compared to non-incels, incels were found to have a greater tendency for interpersonal victimhood, higher levels of depression, anxiety and loneliness, and lower levels of life satisfaction. As predicted, incels also scored higher on levels of sociosexual desire, but this did not appear to moderate the relationship between incel status and mental well-being. Tendency for interpersonal victimhood only moderated the relationship between incel self-identification and loneliness, yet not in the predicted manner. These novel findings are some of the earliest data based on primary responses from self-identified incels and suggest that incels represent a newly identified “at-risk” group to target for mental health interventions, possibly informed by evolutionary psychology.
Just a minor but important point: being neurodivergent is not a “mental health disorder.”
I do agree it plays a role in boys becoming incels, but it’s not in the same category as depression or anxiety disorders.
Edit for the replies I got: I strongly believe our society needs to stop looking at neurodivergent people as somehow “wrong” or “messed up.” Your brain is your brain just like your skin color is your skin color, and no should be discriminated against for either. In this case, it really is society that needs change, not the individual. It’s uncomfortable or even traumatic for the individual because of how other people react to them, not because of who they fundamentally are. Having to Face all the time, being forced into far too stimulating situations, having very few people understand your needs while at the same time foisting their expectations on you is exhausting. And it shouldn’t have to be this way.
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As someone neurodivergent I would say it either is a disorder, otherwise everyone normal has the disorder. It has also caused me a great deal of anxiety and depression from being different and whatever else. None of it led to incel tendencies in my case and I just felt like nobody liked me because I was different from them. I couldn’t get along with other divergent kids either. Sometime into my several years of incessant migraines and hating everything and wanting to die, I became able to talk and react to people in a way that generally didn’t make them react differently to me as they did to others. I think the migraines made me worse though.
Hypothesis: what matters here is a social toolbox for engaging with “attractive”/compatible women in a non-romantic/sexual way.
I.e. someone who, even as a teenager, had lots of female friends, is likely to have a learned how to deal with them as persons, beyond “I’d like to hit that”.
(Paradoxically, such a person is more likely to find a romantic partner, because they might have lots of M-F acquaintances/friendships that can potentially become something more.)
Someone who never learned that, can only interact with (to them) attractive women through the lens of “I’d like to hit that”, which has a much higher risk of ending in failure.
If someone in the second category was always raised on the values of romantic success being a requirement for a non-failed life, and possibly with a touch of chauvinism/misogyny, they might wind up caught up in a frustrating loop of failure.
This is how incels can happen.
raised on the values of romantic success being a requirement for a non-failed life
Literally having a conversation down thread with someone who thinks like this. It just mystifies me. I’m single by choice. I’m not asexual, I’m reasonably attractive. But I’ll tell you I learned the very hard way that romantic relationships will not just magically fill that empty hole in your heart. You gotta learn how to do that for yourself even if you’re married.
Nothing to do with upbringing.
I was borderline incel. Viewed positive female peers (family, etc.) as completely different from “tainted whores” or whatever.
Bad experiences, chronic isolation are what make an incel. Lonely men without supportive friend groups who turn to the Internet for their social needs. Rejection and dismissal from real world people, acceptance and empathy from the hive mind.
Loneliness does a lot more damage than a shitty upbringing.
I wonder how incels would change if they just had a group of friends they could trust.
Lack of personal accountability (“my baby is a perfect angel,” “he’s just a kid”)
Discrimination (racism/sexism/propensity to find scapegoat for issues)
Not teaching conflict resolution at all ages
Popularity of toxic masculine celebrities
Mental disorders not being treated/toxic behaviors not being called out
I’m not an incel, but I do think there are cultural problems among a large percentage women (and men). I’m bi, but woman often don’t like my less planned out take on life, but men don’t mind it so much.
I also think car based infrastructure and the lack of 3rd places is destroying social circles, contributing to inclism.
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There are zero cultural issues that create incels. The only ingredient is a toxic world-view.
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It’s always someone else’s fault.
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Oh the irony.
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A digital upbringing it seems. Self taught, doomscrolling with no one around who loves them enough to tell them they are slipping away into darkness.
Then oversimplification by people stereotypes and lack of socialization to realize the complexity of humans and human interactions. It’s so easy to consider that “all women are A” or that “some of the people are A and some are B” when, in fact, you have all sorts of people with different spectrums of beliefs and understandings that you can’t just box into a category. Then, when getting together with people with the same stereotyping and labeling standards, they get to slip away together and reinforce their beliefs
Since I haven’t seen it mentioned…it might be the same attitude you displayed with the question OP. Immediately wondering which woman’s fault it is that a man is acting badly.
It’s the Freudian question. What every psychology treatment, let it be behavior, psychoanalysis, humanist… comes to: Can you talk about your childhood/parents? It’s not an invalid question, but not a responsible thing for an actual adult to do, make your parents totally responsible for your actions past adulthood.
I want to add to this that it’s also a self circulating thing too. It’s easy to start reading text that’s antiwomen, seeing videos about it, slowly further looking into more and more negative things. Some guys literally brain wash themself on this. That’s why some media worry me.
For example I recently watched a video that discussed the negatives of Captain Marvel as a movie. Not long after my videos started showing negatives of other shows and movies like velma, shehulk and snow white etc.
Then not long after that all my videos started showing anti women, and more just outright incel videos.
YouTube recommendations/ads are weird. I started watching the Atheist Experience again and the very first time I put an episode on all my ads became for Christian products or services.
Makes me wonder whether those with the top dollar gets to influence what we see, and slowly how we think. A couple vids here a few ads there that slowly appeal to things it already knows you like. Until it creates a new norm.
Content consumption. A guy is lonely and goes to Google and types “how to talk to girl” or a variation of that, which is fine and normal mind you, and instead of the top search results being positive and genuinely helpful it’s the beginning of a rabbit hole that directly leads to this kind of woman hating BS. Couple that with terrible male role models in that guy’s life and there you have it.
My casual take: I’m not sure if it’s 100% upbringing but for most it seems some sense of entitlement. They deserve the pretty girl because something-something even though they might not be bringing much to the table attraction wise.
And now I just had a passing thought. We don’t seem to hear about gay incels much. Is that even a thing?
This is far from the whole story. And in fact, this kind of disdain is part of the problem.
“Gaycels” and “femcels” do exist in tangential universes to incels.
It’s deeply patriarchal in the sense that incels are a group of people that think women are obliged to give sex to men. This simply doesn’t work for gays, even though there are deeply misogynist gays who embraced patriarchal norms, and are maybe even sympathetic to incels.
So yes you are completely correct about the entitlement part. The entitlement is that men are entitled to sex from women. The something-something is the patriarchy and the bemoaning of a culture that is taking it away. Or giving women the freedom to pick and choose, because they will then only pick 'chads". Etc.
This is only half the explanation. This patriarcal culture is the old model, but also the only one. The old model has been broken, but no new model exists. There are only two solutions out of this: a new male model, but you can hardly do that alone and no one cares about it currently ; or the feminists are wrong and the old model is actually good.
It’s easy to fall in the trap of the second solution, and fascists are now making hard propaganda for it because they feast over hatred and a glorified past. Here they get to glorify an outdated culture, and to hate on a political opponent. This outdated culture is also about hating on a supposedly weak group, women. Win win for them. Hard loss for society.
I think that all patriarchal models, not just male models, are disappearing and that we’re witnessing the loss of privilege. It’s not as if feminism is creating a model to be a woman, it’s the opposite it’s the destruction of the gender model.
So, I really do not believe in the idea that men need a new model. We can just tap into our humanity and be who we are, authentically. In essence abolishing gender all together. It shouldn’t be a social factor expecting/demanding you to behave a certain way.
It’s difficult to figure out the difference between being authentic and being ideologically programmed, especially when they overlap. It’s far easier to claim that true authenticity is inherent in patriarchal ideology. And that’s why incels claim the ‘old’ model is actually good.
It’s also why it’s mostly a problem for impressionable young men who lack introspection, or at least the life experience needed for it to be useful. While the removal of patriarchal ideology they are subject to haven’t really changed, male culture and tradition stand in the way of that. So on the one hand they are fully aware of what is expected for them in the male role but on the other hand society and especially women are moving away from this expectation. Depending on social factors you deal with this discrepancy differently.
If there is something lacking it is that there are very few men who stand there with open arms to catch these young men on the feminist side. We need more men that embrace feminism and guide young men with acceptance and love. And I have a theory for why but this is getting long. (feminism lifted on the back of individualism)
We can be a person without the baggage of a gender role.
The privileges are irrelevant to the problem. The problem is about how to date and seduce.
These interactions are extremely codified. The interesting part is that they are completely tied to culture, but almost all cultures show heavy patriarchal bias.
Depending in the culture it’s tought in different ways. In our western culture, we have the example of our peers, movies and magazines.
It’s not a matter of role but a matter of how to behave. And it’s not about being nice and respectful. These are obvious to anyone who’s not an asshole. But you are not attractive by being nice and respectful, and you’re delusional if you think it’s the case.
Incels topically missed the classes about how to do the dating and seducing. They weren’t necessarily assholes before the trauma and conditioning. But when you are bad this game and you look for advices, the only answers you will find are conservative and machist. And that’s the positive answers you will find.
Because too many reactions will be disdainful or shaming. This thread is an example of it. And from the people who pretend they are trying to fix the problems between men and women, it’s a shame IMO.
Privilege is the key stone foundational to understanding what incels are trying to get. If you’re brushing it aside nothing but a superficial understanding about dating remains and becomes useless in formulating any sort of solution to the problem.
Yeah superficially incels are about dating and seducing. But this doesn’t explain anything. In fact it is what incels themselves claim the solution is, in getting better at seduction and dating. So basically your solution would be exactly the same as the incel solution. Should make you think.
This is not a matter of privileges. The machist stance is a fall back. The privileges are a cherry on the cake.
Is it too hard to understand that many people only someone to live with? And that the frustration of not getting it can completely destroy a personality? Then they’re suggested a easy solution.
It is a radicalisation process. Arabs are given terrorism. Single young white boys are given machism.
Idiots solutions to these is to fight them. Progressive and smart solutions are to understand why they are destroyed in the first place and prevent it. Abandoned middle classes are given fascism.
Living happy in solitude is not a solution.
On a side note I’m pretty sure you can link a part of the suicides to this problem. Obviously dead young boys don’t become incels though.
This is what I mean. You’re just saying that what incels experience is a lack of love/companionship. Exactly the same thing that incels demand from women. You’re both just looking at the same solution, of how to give these boys company. That they are caught between a rock and a hard place.
But that’s exactly what the man-o-sphere is telling these people. Your analysis is no different than what Andrew tate, Jordan peterson, etc. would say. That feminism has caused a shift in society that leads to a lack of family values, commitment, common sense, etc. That the freedom women have are detrimental, because they now have the freedom to deny you that love and companionship.
What are you going to say now? Because not a word is an explicit lie here. Feminism has caused more divorce, more freedom for women, greater self worth for women, sexual freedom, higher demands on men. It’s just true. So the type of superficially gesturing at boys lacking companionship is only just helping incels into the pipeline. It means nothing, it’s not an analysis. You’re completely missing the point.
I’ve never met any incels in the real world. I assume it’s because like many other synthetic groupings of individual traits, they’re a minority that has worked themselves into an echo chamber which has simply gotten loud enough to be noticed by others not within that group.
I find that actually going out and interacting with people in the real world, absolves most individuals of these kind of horrendous traits. In the real world, people can call you out for your bullshit and you can’t just close the browser tab and run away from it.
I knew a guy in real life who got into men’s rights and Men Going Their Own Way nonsense- basically, he had sex so he didn’t qualify for incel, but he held a lot of the same beliefs.
I was the only woman he seemed to have any respect for. He didn’t respect his mother or younger sister, felt they had taken advantage of his dad and were now taking advantage of him. The one girlfriend I know he had, was very manipulative and not a good girlfriend.
I pointed out all the issues with his thinking and his MRA, MGOTW sources multiple times. he’d come back around to being reasonable for a while, then wander back into the toxic wilds of the internet. eventually, I gave up; I can’t be the only voice of reason you bother to listen to.
It’s interesting that he did have a sister. I always thought that growing up with a sister would make it easier for a man to understand womens’ perspectives since they literally grew up together.
If the sister was bad to the man growing up, it’ll have the opposite effect
People call out your faulty behavior? What?
It’s a lack of positive male role models in a person’s life. If they see people calling women hateful evil sluts, they may assume any negative interaction with a woman is because she’s a hateful evil slut, and they may not look inward. Don’t have to look inward, in fact, because the answer is obvious - just a useless slut just like whatever podcaster has told them.
