Heart Aerospace is claiming that the hybrid-electric ES-30 could reduce airline costs of operating regional aircraft by more than 40 percent.
How much you want to bet that this 40% savings will never make it to the customers’ pockets?
Ticket prices will in fact go up because they had to spend money on these new planes.
How would they ever recoup their cost? Do you even capitalism bro? (/s)
For most airlines the biggest cost is fuel, they reliably make the money back on the planes themselves because they run them for 30 years, so it’s a long-term investment but it will pay off.
Over the 30 years this aircraft could theoretically be in operation fuel costs are going to skyrocket. So not only is it saving some money today, it’s saving a lot of money tomorrow. We may even get to the point where aviation fuel becomes literally unavailable, an electric aircraft like this is a pretty good insurance policy. But you do have to buy a whole new aircraft, and maybe you’ve still got 20 years on your current one, so you need to make that money back, and one of the best ways to ensure that you pay off that cost is to have more customers, and the best way to have more customers is to have cheap fairs. You can afford cheap affairs because you’ll feel costs a lower.
Airlines almost never own an aircraft. They sell to banks and lease back, so they have smooth annual OPEX costs, not large CAPEX costs every few years.
“Every few years?” You mean every 14 years, right? And this article was even nearly 2 years ago, so theyre probably even older now: https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/aircraft-age-iata-airbus-boeing-b2665192.html
I mean from a fleet of 30 planes they could (in theory) buy/retire one or two a year without big spikes in cash needs.
Even if they don’t make it, the whole fact that the aviation industry goes less CO2 intensive would be a good win.
Question is, are they actually gonna use them now?
This seemed intuitively wrong to me (like, way too low a cost), but: 25,000 pounds moving 100 mph is equal to 11,331,007 J of kinetic energy. Since 3.6 million J equals 1 kWh and 1 kWh on average costs $0.17, that means you could accelerate 25,000 pounds to reasonable bare minimum flying speed for about fifty cents (not considering efficiency of the machinery). My mind still can’t process this, but math is math.
On the other hand, looking at it from a potential energy perspective it’s a bit more expensive. 25,000 pounds at a cruising altitude of 10,000 ft. (still quite low from an airliner perspective) is about 339 million J, 94 kWh or about $16 – the cost of lunch at MacDonald’s.
Since a plane requires the most thrust at takeoff, you could use ground-based catapults to get the plane to takeoff speed (or faster even) and then you could carry smaller batteries and propelling machinery. For extra fun, you could have landing planes snag a wire and use their momentum to accelerate a plane taking off.
To save even more weight, since you’re going airport-to-airport you could leave off the landing gear and just have the planes come down on a bouncy trampoline-like surface. If you think that’s batshit crazy, the British actually experimented with this idea for their aircraft carriers in the 1950s.
Edit: to make these numbers more realistic I’m going to assume something like a 737, which can weigh something like 150,000 pounds fully loaded (this includes fuel but you’d need batteries instead for an electric plane). Getting this to a 150 mph takeoff speed would take about 100 million J (getting it then to a cruising speed of 500 mph would be another 233 million J, but that’s pretty minor compared to the other costs). Climbing this plane to 30,000 ft would take 6.1 billion J. Resisting a drag force of 5000 pounds (about what a 737 experiences at cruising speed at 30,000 ft) for 500 miles (the distance from Cleveland to New York City) would need 17.6 billion J. Assuming landing is free (fuck TANSTAAFL) that means a typical trip needs 23.8 billion J or 6618 kWh or $1125. Assuming a real-world efficiency of 25% means the actual cost would be $4500 (which is in the ballpark of what jet fuel costs). Assuming 200 passengers, that’s $22.50 per person. Not exactly “$5 of electricity” but surprisingly small.
Feel free to check my math, my brain hurts.
Since a plane requires the most thrust at takeoff, you could use ground-based catapults to get the plane to takeoff speed (or faster even) and then you could carry smaller batteries and propelling machinery.
Don’t you dare talk about catapulting using electric technologies in America though. Steam only! 🇺🇸🗽🦅🏈
There are many who have suggested replacing the fuel intensive takeoff with electric ramps, similar to what the do on aircraft carriers. The problem is most people could not handle 3-4 gs.
But, there could be a detachable battery pack that disconnects after takeoff to fly back to charge as a drone.
I didn’t say which type of catapult. I don’t need ICE showing up at my door.
Steam melts ice! Also many wavelengths of lasers does too if you want to be modern
Gabe Newell made billions with steam! You’re all stupid!
One important caveat to this. It costs less than 17 cents to generate 1 kwh. Closer to 3 cents really. But that’s the cost of making the electricity, getting that electricity to a house or charger or what have you costs more. Since energy is a for profit industry they tack all the logistics costs to the client buying the electricity.
So your math is spot on but I fear the amount of markup on the electricity will be massive especially since it’s for a business let alone an airline.
National average it’s 55¢ to run 3kw in 3ph electricity for an hour. Offshore areas like Hawaii and Alaska see higher costs like 1.60$/hr per 3kw on 3phase electricity but Alaska has a higher natural gas usage and Hawaii is further away from the CONUS electrical grid. National average per 24/hrs of charging is a little over 13$ with 3kw at 3phase.
And yet it still costs me 30 dollars to charge my car in Georgia and in a state like new York it’s 60 to 100 dollars.
The entire airport is now covered in solar panels. Yes, the runway is a solar panel too.
Solar Freakin’ Runways!
Ahhh. That makes sense. I’m assuming the airplane is also just a giant flying solar panel!
Correct. You are a solar panel now too. Bon voyage!
I fucking hate everyone and would love to subject you fucks to 4g of pain taking off with a stupid catapult system. Nice math.
The Navy is stupid.
All those screaming kids would get a quick education on how relatively nice everything was before the plane was launched.
“Billy, why are you crying? Do I have to take you on another plane ride? Oh, you’re gonna cry harder now? That’s it, I’m getting the vomit bags. I got this nice new child design one for you that wraps around your head and ties closed at your neck. Won’t that be a treat?”
Since a plane requires the most thrust at takeoff, you could use ground-based
Actually dragging (or wheeling in) a wire or having a wire car supplying the plane with electricity during takeoff would work too.
I think the only realistic use case is going to be short trips. For long range offsetting the carbon for jet fuel just makes more sense.
But really small personal vehicles could be interesting. There is the Pivotal BlackFly which can VTOL and uses less electricity than a big electric car - and it needs to roads. So for commuting this could actually work to save on infrastructure.
To do that, you would need a short acceleration of 3-4gs. That’s like 900-1200lbs of force on husky Americans l
The biggest problem with flying cars is, well, have you seen how people drive?
It’s stressful enough just crossing the street. But at least you know when you’re doing it, look both ways, look around for idiot drivers. If there were flying cars you’d always be in danger everywhere.
Actually dragging (or wheeling in) a wire or having a wire car supplying the plane with electricity during takeoff would work too.
After doing more of the math, I realized that the energetic cost of takeoff is quite a small fraction of the overall cost. So the only real benefit of the catapult would be to reduce the size and weight of the propulsive machinery on the plane. So externally providing just the electricity wouldn’t be much of a benefit.
This is a pretty bananas idea, but I wondered if in the future we’ll be able to have something like a large robot arm “throw” a small plane from the top of a skyscraper as well as catch it for landing. Something like a modified trebuchet, slowly storing energy in a suspended weight to power throwing the plane, or to store the energy from catching the plane. We’d probably need further advances in robotics control, and the arm might need to be too heavy to be fast enough. And overall this makes even less sense than a catapult / puller that is already in use for gliders.
Wouldn’t work Militarized though because you wouldn’t be able to refuel it mid flight.
Microwave beams from satellites. What could go wrong?
I was about to crunch the numbers to check for myself, thanks for doing it, you did a great job.
Amazes me how they made it work considering the amount of arcane shit it takes to make jet engines work. Of course it is possible since electric motors are torque monsters, but it still must’ve taken insane efforts to make it work.
I wonder if we’ll see these flying anytime soon or if they’ll get shot down by the fossil fuel i industry just like everything else that is amazing
It will never practically work unless there is some fundamental new technology to store electrical energy, and the periodic table says no.
This plane can’t carry passengers. All the useful load is taxen up by batteries. It’s the fundamental issue with all-electric aviation
Well, feel free to correct me on my math here, I’m no battery expert. Google says a 100 kWh battery typically weighs between 1000 and 1500 pounds. Since we’d need 6618 kWh for the hypothetical trip from Cleveland to NYC, that means we’d need 67 x 100 kWh batteries which would weigh between 67,000 and 100,000 pounds. Google also says the typical fuel load for a 737 is around 50,000 pounds, so the relative overage from batteries (since obviously you wouldn’t need to carry any fuel) would be 17,000 to 50,000 pounds. This would roughly give you a passenger capacity range between 120 and nobody. Even worse if you consider the need to have some reserves of power for unexpected circumstances. There’s also the problem mentioned elsewhere in this thread that the batteries don’t become lighter as they’re discharged, so your landing weight is the same as your takeoff weight.
So yeah, battery weight is the core problem. But if battery weight comes down by “just” 50% (and I have no idea if that’s on the horizon or not) then electric aviation becomes quite viable.
There is nothing in labs to even suggest that battery capacity in the next 20 years.
OK, electric planes are fucked then. No wonder they’re resorting to “$5 of electricity” clickbait bullshit.
A plane should still be capable of unassisted taking off and landing for emergencies, imo.
Landing yes, it’s kinda silly to try to implement arresting cables for landing anyway. Takeoff though? If the system is broken, well then takeoff is delayed, but that wouldn’t be an emergency. Planes can’t take off all the time because of weather conditions.
And they lose spots at terminals.
In other words the Us won’t use this technology because it hurts the oil companies pockets
Us??
I’m guessing autocorrect swapped “US” with “Us.”
Wow dang. For some reason I was hoping it was a new slag on the uneducated or something like that.
Damn Us are at our again. Someone should stop the US.
At this point we’ll stop ourselves
i just got back from a week in bali. we rent a mini ev 2 person car to get around and in the span for the whole trip we literally spend $0 because we charge them off the wall plug of the villa we stay at
but if we want to be pedantic the car is Wuling airev and iirc it has 17 kwh of battery. that is quite enough for us for the whole week, we only need to charge it once at 60%. so lets say its around 7 kwh. in Indonesia a kwh cost around $0.1. so for a whole week it only need less than a dollar for ‘gas’
Is there no simple anymore? Plane A went this far on 5 dollars electricity. Plane B went the same distance on X dollars worth of jet fuel. I want to know the distance travelled and I want to know what “X” is.
The site for the plane manufacturers says they have a max range of 125 miles.
So this is practically useless for flights. It’s faster to just drive 125 miles in an EV.
$5 for 30 minutes in the air. pick any speed you want. it doesn’t matter. avgas and jet fuel don’t compete with $5.
$3.60 for mogas at a couple places near me. Very high density altitude, well leaned out, in slow flight, you could get 27 minutes out of a 150 for $5
These guys are also apparently getting electricity for 2-4 cents per KWh, which is many times cheaper than most would be able to get it
You’d even have more useful load than this “jet” that can carry no passengers or cargo
You could also fly a glider. It’d be as useful as this thing
Wrong thread buddy. Maybe you need a refresher in navigation theory.
If they can fly a small airliner for 30 minutes for $5. Either there’s a whole lot they’re leaving out. or they’re not paying anywhere near what I pay for electricity.
They say the engines delivered more than 1 megawatt of power. Cool, so 1 MW over 30 minutes. That’s 500kWh. Which means if they paid $5 for it. They paid 1 cent per kWh. Now i don’t know about you guys. But i sure as hell don’t pay 1 cent per kWh.
they also dont specify how many kwh they used. which is why i assumed a sustained 1mw of power. they also dont say how much the plane weighted. only what it could potentially carry. that doesn’t mean that’s what it weighted in the test.
don’t get me wrong. cool stuff to fly electric planes. but i can’t help but feel incredibly sceptic when they leave out a lot of numbers while making the insane claim that they only used $5 worth of electricity.
People down here acting like $5 to keep 25,000 lbs in the air for 30 minutes is not a milestone worth announcing.
“Be perfect NOW” 🤣
Because they didn’t. And anyone that is capable of critical thought can easily take the few numbers they provide in the article and do some simple calculations.
They claim the motors pull more than 1mw of power. So using 1 mw for 30 minutes is 500kWh. That means they paid 1 cent per kWh. (Spoiler. They dont)
And nowhere, does it say the plane weighted 25000 pounds. It says it “can exceed” 25000 pounds. But by no means does that mean that’s what it weighted in this test.
The most likely scenario is that the plane was bare minimum rather than maximum. I doubt even passenger seats were installed.
This plane is a piblicity stunt and will never be a viable product (the company itself said it is not meant for commercial production)
This “jet” has a lower max speed than a Cessna 150, a service ceiling of 2,000 AGL - far less than any commercial aircraft. It weighs 25,000 pounds with no passengers or cargo, almost certainly it’s max weight. They can’t even fit a 2nd pilot
They do not disclose how much energy was actually used, just a vague “$5” figure and a listed max power of 1MW
It’s just a marketing ploy and you fell for it
There are also flights where this could be used as fully electric right now, or very soon if they increase range a bit. If you fly from Tallinn to anywhere via Finnair, you go through Helsinki, that’s like a 30 minute flight. And the reason you don’t just drive to Helsinki is that you’d have to take the ferry which costs more money, takes over an hour and the Helsinki airport isn’t that close to the port.
Similarly, you can fly from Tallinn to the two bigger islands here in Estonia, very short flights versus like a 3 or 4 hour bus ride involving a ferry. 30 and 40 minute flights with the current 30-40 person planes that company uses.
There are plenty of flights where 30 min in the air is enough. The general public seems to only consider trans ocean and regional flights but there are plenty of uses cases they don’t see.
Time to pass those savings onto the
consumershareholders!This article is idiotic.
$5 cost. 25,000 pounds. BUT OVER WHAT FUCKING DISTANCE?
$5 gets me 23 miles in my Delica. It gets me 100 miles on my motorcycle. It gets me 30 miles in my Porsche 914. But the article says nothing about distance.
The plane has a max range of 125 miles.
More US electrical bullshit to swindle investors.
Thanks. That’s what I figured. To date, I think only ultralight aircraft that would normally just be high altitude vehicles have viably used electricity for long distances.
23 miles lol. For $5 I get about 125miles in my Atto3
With horse power and cargo capacity an airplane has I really doubt it
Every time I hear of an all electric aircraft of any size, I always wonder what they’re going to do about landing weight.
Every modern transport category jet has a higher takeoff weight than landing weight, because of the simple unavoidable fact that landings are rougher than takeoffs. Taking off, the load gradually comes off of the landing gear, on landing it’s suddenly applied. Jets burn tons, literally tons, of fuel enroute, so they’re considerably lighter on approach. It’s why aircraft have dump valves to jettison fuel overboard in case of forced landing early in the flight.
Batteries don’t get lighter as they’re discharged, so…?
Fun fact, batteries DO become lighter when they discharge. But obviously not like fuel. But it’s still a fun fact.
You mean because of e=mc²? That’s true but basically unmeasurable. Air batteries do get mesurable heavier.
You can rethink the engineering with electric motors.
The planes you are describing are designed assuming they will be lighter on landing because of fuel. So why design them for take off weight?
Electric motors are condusive of blown wing design for example, and would have a unique landing profile. (The plane can land at much slower velocity)
Edit: yeah they’ve moved the engine shroud which allows for lower speeds. Given the same runway you would be able to trim vertical speed.
That ain’t gonna happen on a civilian airliner.
Blown wings are basically powered lift. You’re planning on bringing a civilian passenger plane down final approach at a speed it can’t glide at if the power plant fails?
I could see that for a carrier based aircraft where STOL is a factor but no you’re not doing that in airline operations.
Why couldn’t it actually be safer since you could have distributed power centers, across multiple motors?
You could also have hybrid approaches - there is space between not being able to glide and smashing your landing.
I’m just getting at it being a different system so some old assumptions can be reexamined.
Bigger challenge than landing is energy density.
Regardless it’s a very interesting space.
Multiple redundant motors are heavy.
Batteries are far heavier. There’s going to be as many motors are there are propellers, it really doesn’t make sense to do otherwise.
That’s ridiculous. No one on final gives a crap about take-off weight. What you need is a ride in a glider or parachute. Learn to land on your ride’s minimal weight. Dropping stuff is only an extra measure if possible, not a necessity.
when r/fuckcars thinks they know anything about aviation.
↑ when a video game pilot thinks they know anything about aviation ↑
I’m a CFI.
I did my best to find any technical data about the flight. Couldn’t find any actual numbers. FWIW it’s not intended to be a standalone method of powering the aircraft for commercial use; they plan on making it a hybrid, which makes far more sense as far as range and payload are concerned. Best guess a 25000 lb aircraft like this will probably cruise around 120-150Kt at a nice, slow, efficient airspeed for a test like this. So maybe a 40-50 mile flight because “air time” probably started as soon as they lifted off.
Yeah the problem is they also don’t tell us the load during the flight. From the lift equation (let’s be hand wavey) if they’re a similar size to a regional jet (same planform area) your heavy lift is better driven by speed than lifting coefficient. Of course, it’s hard to go fast with electric props, so I wonder if a safe ceiling is probably
400Kt300Kt?Gives a nice range of you know… 40 to
200150 miles.Edit:
No way. The speed record for a prop aircraft currently stands at about 300Kt. If we use that generously our new ceiling is lower.
An experimental plane to help develop a future hybrid still another experimental phase away that will still be limited to regional travel due to autonomy issues. Still pretty awesome, but still some time away.
Oh boy… So, they took off from a test facility adjacent to Plattsburgh International Airport. I don’t see it stated, but I give it 98% they landed where they took off. Plattsburgh has some of the lowest residential and commercial electricity costs in the country, so that $5 nets them about 110kWh of juice.
They also reached a maximum altitude of 1,100 feet with a plane that weighs in excess of 25,000 pounds. Lifting 25,000 pounds up to 1,100 feet takes 37 million joules of added potential energy, or a bit above 10 kWh.
The entire remaining 100kWh of energy budget is the equivalent of accelerating the 25,000 pound aircraft up to 252 meters/second at perfect efficiency in a vacuum. This flight was not going very high, and it was not going very fast.
If the economics of their hybrid idea work out, it’ll be fantastic, but the attempt at marketing over transparency here doesn’t fill me with optimism.
They didnt say the planes weighted 25000 pounds. They said it could exceed 25000 pounds. My guess is that not even the passenger seats were installed in this run.
1mw of power from the 4 engines. For 30 minutes, 500kWh. So for $5 they paid 1 cent per kWh. Somewhere there’s a bunch of bullshit hidden.
Well, its possible the motors weren’t at 100% at all times, but I’d imagine that at that maths its still 1-2 cents per kWh, which still seems quite off.
I looked it up quickly to get some context. Google (alphabet). Which is a huge consumer of energy. Has deals directly with the electricity producers. It’s reported they pay ~4-12 cents per kWh in the US, depending on where the energy comes from.
And they can get those prices because they are an enourmous customer that can sign multi-year deals that benefits the producers ability to expand production.
So… i would love to know how this company managed to get rates around 1-2 cents per kWh
It just occurred to me that with the recent advancements in cargo-container-sized nuclear reactors, they would excellent fit to power aircraft due to their high energy densities. There were attempts at nuclear-powered aircraft in the past using older technology, but IIRC they irradiated crews and were primarily for bombers carrying nukes that would supposedly need to be in the air continuously for days at a time.
You forgot the /s
They are not being sarcastic. Nuclear power is far more viable than all-electric in commercial aviation
Nuclear power on thousands of plains, zipping over cities sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
They obviously do live in another reality then i do.
Good and as battery technology improves, EV aircraft would be ideal for short commuter hops.
Dude, I’d take short hop flights all the time if they end up being that environmentally friendly.
