She said that human beings have a problem getting up until it’s light and that Daylight Saving Time can mess that up.
I propose that AT THE VERY LEAST, during the winter, work days be one hour shorter, but with no decrease in pay, and that they start an hour later.
This will allow people to have a proper amount of sleep, and to see the sun in the morning, to be better rested, and to see the sun at the end of the day.
I propose that AT THE VERY LEAST, during the winter, work days be one hour shorter
This isn’t something you “propose”, this is something you demand when negotiating your job offer. If you’re not an in-demand worker and can’t do that, then join a union and have the union demand it.
Really, this whole daylight time / standard time debate is stupid. Solar noon should be at 12pm. Once you’ve fixed that, adjust other things. If in the summer people want more evening sun, then start work earlier. If in the winter they want more morning sun to make commutes safer, then start work later.
It’s absolutely ridiculous to have the freedom to change work hours and clocks, and think that the reasonable thing to do is to change the clocks so noon isn’t at noon, rather than just change work hours.
The time zone is an hour wide. Solar noon and chronological noon cannot coincide with each other throughout an entire time zone.
I would say that Solar noon should occur some time in the noon hour. Solar noon should never occur prior to chronological noon, nor after the noon hour. Solar noon should never occur at 11:00am on the clock. Solar noon should never occur at 11:30am on the clock. Solar noon should never occur at 11:59am on the clock. Nobody should experience solar noon earlier than 12:00pm. Solar noon should be experienced sometime between 12:00pm and 12:59:59pm on the clock. Solar noon should be experienced within the noon hour.
The system that more closely aligns with this is Daylight Savings Time. Standard Time pushes solar noon forward into the morning hours for most people. DST keeps noon in the noon hour for most people. If you want chronological noon to coincide with solar noon, you need to choose DST, not standard time.
Solar noon and chronological noon cannot coincide with each other throughout an entire time zone.
Sure, in a properly designed time zone, solar noon will range between a clock time of 11:30 and 12:30 at the edges. But, if you go with permanent DST it will range from 12:30 to 1:30. Nobody in the zone will have solar noon at noon.
Sure, in a properly designed time zone, solar noon will range between a clock time of 11:30 and 12:30 at the edges.
No, in a properly designed time zone, solar noon will occur between 12:00 and 12:59:59. Nobody should be experiencing solar noon before chronological noon in a properly designed time zone.
And yet, that is what we have. Boston experienced solar noon at 11:29AM today. New York at 11:40. Los Angeles, 11:37 AM.
Even if we accepted the ridiculous idea
of tolerating solar noon before noon, we would need a fifth time zone (and redrawing of the current time zones) to achieve what you’re trying to do. Maine and the rest of New England would have to be moved to Atlantic time instead of Eastern, for example.
If each of us adopted your “noon at noon” standard for ourselves, and we each independently and permanently selected Summer Time or Winter Time in our current time zone, the majority of the US population would be on Summer Time. The majority of the land would be on standard time, but the people are not evenly distributed across that land. The majority of the populace would be on DST.
We used to do that in the 19th century before standard time was a thing with railways. Though scheduling an online meeting with anyone outside your city would be hell, for example a 9:00am meeting in New York City would be 8:48am in Boston and 9:12am in DC.
It breaks the day and night in 6 parts each. These parts are longer in summer and shorter in winter, corresponding to a changing length of the work day, which is what you were describing. Certain aspects were retained in Japanese vocabulary like 午 still used to represent noon like in afternoon (but using the standard 24h clock), or the word for snack derived from the number 8 because that was what represented the time 2/3s of the way through the day when labourers of the day typically took a break and had some tea and a light meal.
We used to do that in the 19th century before standard time was a thing with railways.
No, with railroads each city had their own time. I’m not suggesting that. I’m saying that time zones should be arranged so that solar noon falls close to 12pm. With DST solar noon can be as late as 1:30pm, or perhaps even later in badly designed time zones. That’s dumb. Solar noon should be close to noon. We shouldn’t mess with that. If that makes certain other things like commuting or sending kids to school inconvenient, we should change the hours at which those activities happen.
Or, just use UTC for the time for everything and never change it. Then everyone’s in the same time zone, and you no longer have to wonder what time it is in Baku. You’d still have to do a bit of digging to know what normal work hours and normal sleeping hours are in Baku if you wanted to contact someone there though.
I agree that doing away with conventions like “9-to-5” would be a good idea, and just adjust schedules to whatever is healthiest rather than try to conform to a fixed system where not necessary. In China with a single timezone, the regions far west of Beijing supposedly just go about their day with offset schedules.
I’m saying that time zones should be arranged so that solar noon falls close to 12pm.
I suppose you might have meant that, but you did say in the earlier reply, quote, “Solar noon should be at 12pm” which would suggest each city would have its own noon so that it can be true for most people. Maybe I’m being too literal bordering on facetious, so I’ll stop there. Sorry for my misinterpretation of your comment.
Sunset today was at 4:27PM in Augusta, Maine. That is a big damn problem that is only going to get worse for the next ~40 days. That same problem occurs on the eastern edge of every time zone.
Frankly, I’m not interested in the advice of “sleep experts”. I’m more interested in the advice of fitness experts, recreation experts, and everyone else who understands that mornings are the time we waste giving to bosses and clients; evenings are the time we spend on ourselves and our loved ones.
For me, fitness experts and sleep experts are on the same level.
They are on the same level, but they are making opposite recommendations. Sleepists want morning daylight; fitness and recreation wants afternoon daylight.
Kids don’t work out in the early morning before school. They engage in extra curricular activities in the only time slot available to them: after school. Taking daylight from the only time slot they have for themselves pushes them indoors, rather than being outside and active.
The reality is that the morning daylight that sleep experts want is easily produced artificially. Daylight lamps in our bedrooms can easily address the circadian issues the Sleepists raise.
Yeah, if the day started at such a time that I could wake up at 8am, which is when the sky would be lightening up just before sunrise in the dead of winter (if we stayed on DST), that’d be sweet. I am one of the sun in the morning people, but I’d be willing to rethink my position.
And the worst part is that my jobs generally start at 10am. I’m just surrounded by days that start way earlier. I also have jobs that start at 530, or 630, or 730, and so the evening light was never such a big deal for me.
Could be because humanity spread out from more equatorial areas? So we evolved to sleep at night because they used to be regular from season to season.
Yesterday I saw a video with a sleep expert.
She said that human beings have a problem getting up until it’s light and that Daylight Saving Time can mess that up.
I propose that AT THE VERY LEAST, during the winter, work days be one hour shorter, but with no decrease in pay, and that they start an hour later.
This will allow people to have a proper amount of sleep, and to see the sun in the morning, to be better rested, and to see the sun at the end of the day.
This isn’t something you “propose”, this is something you demand when negotiating your job offer. If you’re not an in-demand worker and can’t do that, then join a union and have the union demand it.
Really, this whole daylight time / standard time debate is stupid. Solar noon should be at 12pm. Once you’ve fixed that, adjust other things. If in the summer people want more evening sun, then start work earlier. If in the winter they want more morning sun to make commutes safer, then start work later.
It’s absolutely ridiculous to have the freedom to change work hours and clocks, and think that the reasonable thing to do is to change the clocks so noon isn’t at noon, rather than just change work hours.
The time zone is an hour wide. Solar noon and chronological noon cannot coincide with each other throughout an entire time zone.
I would say that Solar noon should occur some time in the noon hour. Solar noon should never occur prior to chronological noon, nor after the noon hour. Solar noon should never occur at 11:00am on the clock. Solar noon should never occur at 11:30am on the clock. Solar noon should never occur at 11:59am on the clock. Nobody should experience solar noon earlier than 12:00pm. Solar noon should be experienced sometime between 12:00pm and 12:59:59pm on the clock. Solar noon should be experienced within the noon hour.
The system that more closely aligns with this is Daylight Savings Time. Standard Time pushes solar noon forward into the morning hours for most people. DST keeps noon in the noon hour for most people. If you want chronological noon to coincide with solar noon, you need to choose DST, not standard time.
Sure, in a properly designed time zone, solar noon will range between a clock time of 11:30 and 12:30 at the edges. But, if you go with permanent DST it will range from 12:30 to 1:30. Nobody in the zone will have solar noon at noon.
No, in a properly designed time zone, solar noon will occur between 12:00 and 12:59:59. Nobody should be experiencing solar noon before chronological noon in a properly designed time zone.
And yet, that is what we have. Boston experienced solar noon at 11:29AM today. New York at 11:40. Los Angeles, 11:37 AM.
Even if we accepted the ridiculous idea
of tolerating solar noon before noon, we would need a fifth time zone (and redrawing of the current time zones) to achieve what you’re trying to do. Maine and the rest of New England would have to be moved to Atlantic time instead of Eastern, for example.
If each of us adopted your “noon at noon” standard for ourselves, and we each independently and permanently selected Summer Time or Winter Time in our current time zone, the majority of the US population would be on Summer Time. The majority of the land would be on standard time, but the people are not evenly distributed across that land. The majority of the populace would be on DST.
We used to do that in the 19th century before standard time was a thing with railways. Though scheduling an online meeting with anyone outside your city would be hell, for example a 9:00am meeting in New York City would be 8:48am in Boston and 9:12am in DC.
You should have also have a read on Japan’s time system before 1873 in the Meiji period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_clock
It breaks the day and night in 6 parts each. These parts are longer in summer and shorter in winter, corresponding to a changing length of the work day, which is what you were describing. Certain aspects were retained in Japanese vocabulary like 午 still used to represent noon like in afternoon (but using the standard 24h clock), or the word for snack derived from the number 8 because that was what represented the time 2/3s of the way through the day when labourers of the day typically took a break and had some tea and a light meal.
No, with railroads each city had their own time. I’m not suggesting that. I’m saying that time zones should be arranged so that solar noon falls close to 12pm. With DST solar noon can be as late as 1:30pm, or perhaps even later in badly designed time zones. That’s dumb. Solar noon should be close to noon. We shouldn’t mess with that. If that makes certain other things like commuting or sending kids to school inconvenient, we should change the hours at which those activities happen.
Or, just use UTC for the time for everything and never change it. Then everyone’s in the same time zone, and you no longer have to wonder what time it is in Baku. You’d still have to do a bit of digging to know what normal work hours and normal sleeping hours are in Baku if you wanted to contact someone there though.
I agree that doing away with conventions like “9-to-5” would be a good idea, and just adjust schedules to whatever is healthiest rather than try to conform to a fixed system where not necessary. In China with a single timezone, the regions far west of Beijing supposedly just go about their day with offset schedules.
I suppose you might have meant that, but you did say in the earlier reply, quote, “Solar noon should be at 12pm” which would suggest each city would have its own noon so that it can be true for most people. Maybe I’m being too literal bordering on facetious, so I’ll stop there. Sorry for my misinterpretation of your comment.
No, it would suggest that each person should have their own personal noon, if you’re being pedantic.
Sunset today was at 4:27PM in Augusta, Maine. That is a big damn problem that is only going to get worse for the next ~40 days. That same problem occurs on the eastern edge of every time zone.
Frankly, I’m not interested in the advice of “sleep experts”. I’m more interested in the advice of fitness experts, recreation experts, and everyone else who understands that mornings are the time we waste giving to bosses and clients; evenings are the time we spend on ourselves and our loved ones.
For me, fitness experts and sleep experts are on the same level. They all have some different story to tell.
I don’t call my labmates molecule experts. That would be insulting but funny. Never a scientist, always an expert buahahaha.
They are on the same level, but they are making opposite recommendations. Sleepists want morning daylight; fitness and recreation wants afternoon daylight.
Kids don’t work out in the early morning before school. They engage in extra curricular activities in the only time slot available to them: after school. Taking daylight from the only time slot they have for themselves pushes them indoors, rather than being outside and active.
The reality is that the morning daylight that sleep experts want is easily produced artificially. Daylight lamps in our bedrooms can easily address the circadian issues the Sleepists raise.
Afternoon daylight cannot be similarly simulated.
TL;DR: Standard Time makes you look fat.
I’m a “children in a box” expert, which doesn’t sound too good until I mention I’m a school bus driver.
Yeah, if the day started at such a time that I could wake up at 8am, which is when the sky would be lightening up just before sunrise in the dead of winter (if we stayed on DST), that’d be sweet. I am one of the sun in the morning people, but I’d be willing to rethink my position.
And the worst part is that my jobs generally start at 10am. I’m just surrounded by days that start way earlier. I also have jobs that start at 530, or 630, or 730, and so the evening light was never such a big deal for me.
You should also go to bed when the Sun sets. you do that too, right?
No you shouldn’t. Not at all actually. Your hormones typically build up to initiate the sleep cycle around 9:30-10:00pm. It’s skience brah.
Lol if you’re going to bed that early and sleeping until sun up then you have early symptoms of dementia.
Wow how did that evolve?
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220107-the-lost-medieval-habit-of-biphasic-sleep
Could be because humanity spread out from more equatorial areas? So we evolved to sleep at night because they used to be regular from season to season.