If men don’t do XYZ because they’re afraid of being perceived as gay, shame the people who have created a society where being perceived as gay is something to be afraid of. The men here saying “I’d like to carry a reusable bag but am afraid of the consequences of people thinking I’m gay” are victims here.
First of all, I find the premise that other people would think that dubious at best, but let’s assume it’s true. What are the consequences of someone else thinking you’re gay? Are you the victim of thought-crime? This sounds more like self victimization.
Its called social stigma. Its been a thing ever since socialization has been a thing. Social pressures are a very real thing. Its not like men woke up one day and decided “you know what? I’m gonna be homophobic today, sounds like a real trip!”
Obviously personal choice is a factor, and a major one at that… but its far from the only one.
I find the premise that other people would think that dubious at best
Not relevant. What matters is that the men surveyed felt like they would be thought of that way.
What are the consequences of someone else thinking you’re gay?
That also isn’t a rebuttal to my argument. What matters is that these men feel like they’ll be thought of as gay and they feel like that’s a bad thing. These feelings don’t form in a vacuum. They’re taught and reinforced to people in society over generations.
Let’s suppose that the poll said, “8/10 of men are afraid of wearing slim jeans out of fear of being called gay.” Would it not be the obvious conclusion that they’re victims of the patriarchy^1. Neither of the two actions are exclusive to being gay in any way, but society teaches individuals to associate the two.
Patriarchy not being the worship of male over female but the masculine over the feminine. See why traditionally feminine-acting men achieve less success than masculine men, or masculine women over feminine women.
You’re correct in sentiment, but the joke is fully aware of that. It’s not a joke at all if this is just the simple facts of life. It’s a joke because he’s self-victimizing over the dumbest shit. No one is sitting there ready to shame the guy if he pulls out a reusable bag. He’s doing it to himself. You want us to shame HIM for victimizing himself??
I mean, unironically yes, but please be aware of what you’re saying. There is no attacker to yell at here. Shaming someone for attempting to be normal is a GREAT way to twist them up further.
The joke is contingent on linking completely unrelated factors. If you don’t, the joke doesn’t make sense. Its based on accepting the premise that sexuality has literally anything to do with environmentalism or responsibility.
Sure, its a premise posited by those mired in toxic masculinity… but why accept that premise? That is the core of the joke, accepting a premise that is wholly false.
Not the person you’re replying to, but I made the original comment in this thread. I made another reply about how this meme’s conclusion is flawed, but its premise is too. And it (inadvertently, I don’t think OP had any malicious intentions) erases centuries of homophobia in the process.
The basic argument being made here hinges on the fact that the person in the top picture (Louis XIV, I belive but I was never good with monarchy) is wearing items associated today as being feminine and says that modern men have regressed in their sexual security for being too afraid to dress that way, but ignores the fact that those items didn’t have those connotations at the time. It isn’t like King Louis said “yeah I know these shoes make me look gay, but I’m going to wear them anyway.” It’s a false comparison between two tome period, attitudes, societies, etc. being made.
Yes, but that is obviously reading WAY too much in to the anachronism. The point is NOT that those were normal back then, but that they magically aren’t today.
The juxtaposition is the ENTIRE point: Sex-based fashion (and most other things) IS NOT intrinsic to the sexes. If you analyze it by removing it from modern context, you no longer have ANY juxtaposition to point at, and thus miss the entire point.
The POINT is that it was different back then vs today. The entire point is to demonstrate that gender expression changes COMPLETELY over time, showing that it is a social construct and not intrinsic to the sexes what so ever.
The point of the message is reinforced by the fact that the modern guy is twisting themselves up over “completely unrelated” things. You guys are literally complaining about things that reinforce the main point.
When I was a kid “that’s gay” and calling people “fags” was very very common. Even in The Office Micheal calls stuff “faggy”.
It was pretty heavily shamed and my dad was very worried my brothers or I might turn out gay if we played with our sister’s toys. I had an uncle say to be careful or we’d turn out with “limp wrists” and he did that stereotypical gay wrist gesture.
And does anyone else remember “metrosexual”? I got called that because I liked wearing nice clothes and putting product in my hair (growing up the expectation in the town I was from was that men tucked in their shirts and made themselves look nice, so that being borderline gay confused the heck out of me).
Nowadays I never ever hear that kind of language (except for online trolls), and that family is very much fine with LGBTQ people (except still fairly confused on the trans parts).
Progress has been slow buts better than I thought it would be as a kid — even the Pope preaches acceptance of gay people (though this gets him some hate).
Yeah as a trans woman I was beaten up for being feminine as a kid. Nothing like how it was for older generations, but I definitely remember it. I remember learning to fear femininity in any form including looking nice in a polished masculine way because it was seen as gay and queerness came with ostracism or at least some people being uncomfortable with you.
It’s easy to forget that that era was a thing, but jeez I remember so many jokes about how anyone who drove a Prius had to be gay, ironically from the same people who constantly whined about gas prices.
I’m so sorry you had to go through that, I was a straight kid and got pushed around for the mere accusations, I can’t imagine how it feels to be beaten up for who you actually are inside.
For what it’s worth, one of my best friends is trans and all my family mentioned above was very nice to her at my wedding, so at least in some circles people really have changed (my family was never hateful, just ignorant before). I wish I could say it was universal.
Yeah people don’t seem to remember just how accepted and extreme homophobia was. That fag word you mentioned? That was used at least once in nearly every episode of Will and Grace. A primetime sitcom. The vast majority of times it was said was also by a straight character, not by Will or Jack. Was also said in a derogatory tone or at least a shameful one. Was one of the reasons why W&G was loathed by a lot of the community. The gay characters were stereotypes that were used to laugh at but had no furthering of themselves. It’s also why the revival failed so miserably. After 20 years it was made abundantly clear that the gay characters were flat and 2D.
Basically the flagship show for gay guys in the early 2000s was made with a surprising amount of homophobia baked in. That’s how bad shit was. Even when we got what we asked for and when a lot of us were super stoked about it, we were happy about homophobia simply because it was still less than what was before. Things hve gotten a lot better but it’s still pretty bad. Constantly reminded that I’m different and lesser.
If hairy sweaty men were not so monumentally attractive then I’d shred my gay card without a moment’s hesitation.
I think I have to give some of those shows a pass, simply because as a small town straight kid Will & Grace and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy were the first gay people I ever saw.
I distinctly remember my brother put them on as a joke and then we all sat and watched them and learned gay people weren’t that different.
If men don’t do XYZ because they’re afraid of being perceived as gay, shame the people who have created a society where being perceived as gay is something to be afraid of. The men here saying “I’d like to carry a reusable bag but am afraid of the consequences of people thinking I’m gay” are victims here.
First of all, I find the premise that other people would think that dubious at best, but let’s assume it’s true. What are the consequences of someone else thinking you’re gay? Are you the victim of thought-crime? This sounds more like self victimization.
Its called social stigma. Its been a thing ever since socialization has been a thing. Social pressures are a very real thing. Its not like men woke up one day and decided “you know what? I’m gonna be homophobic today, sounds like a real trip!”
Obviously personal choice is a factor, and a major one at that… but its far from the only one.
Lot of irrelevant content here.
Not relevant. What matters is that the men surveyed felt like they would be thought of that way.
That also isn’t a rebuttal to my argument. What matters is that these men feel like they’ll be thought of as gay and they feel like that’s a bad thing. These feelings don’t form in a vacuum. They’re taught and reinforced to people in society over generations.
Let’s suppose that the poll said, “8/10 of men are afraid of wearing slim jeans out of fear of being called gay.” Would it not be the obvious conclusion that they’re victims of the patriarchy^1. Neither of the two actions are exclusive to being gay in any way, but society teaches individuals to associate the two.
You’re correct in sentiment, but the joke is fully aware of that. It’s not a joke at all if this is just the simple facts of life. It’s a joke because he’s self-victimizing over the dumbest shit. No one is sitting there ready to shame the guy if he pulls out a reusable bag. He’s doing it to himself. You want us to shame HIM for victimizing himself??
I mean, unironically yes, but please be aware of what you’re saying. There is no attacker to yell at here. Shaming someone for attempting to be normal is a GREAT way to twist them up further.
The joke is contingent on linking completely unrelated factors. If you don’t, the joke doesn’t make sense. Its based on accepting the premise that sexuality has literally anything to do with environmentalism or responsibility.
Sure, its a premise posited by those mired in toxic masculinity… but why accept that premise? That is the core of the joke, accepting a premise that is wholly false.
No, it’s a premise based in the reality of a sexist culture. The fuck commentary do you think it’s trying to make?
Not the person you’re replying to, but I made the original comment in this thread. I made another reply about how this meme’s conclusion is flawed, but its premise is too. And it (inadvertently, I don’t think OP had any malicious intentions) erases centuries of homophobia in the process.
The basic argument being made here hinges on the fact that the person in the top picture (Louis XIV, I belive but I was never good with monarchy) is wearing items associated today as being feminine and says that modern men have regressed in their sexual security for being too afraid to dress that way, but ignores the fact that those items didn’t have those connotations at the time. It isn’t like King Louis said “yeah I know these shoes make me look gay, but I’m going to wear them anyway.” It’s a false comparison between two tome period, attitudes, societies, etc. being made.
Yes, but that is obviously reading WAY too much in to the anachronism. The point is NOT that those were normal back then, but that they magically aren’t today.
The juxtaposition is the ENTIRE point: Sex-based fashion (and most other things) IS NOT intrinsic to the sexes. If you analyze it by removing it from modern context, you no longer have ANY juxtaposition to point at, and thus miss the entire point.
The POINT is that it was different back then vs today. The entire point is to demonstrate that gender expression changes COMPLETELY over time, showing that it is a social construct and not intrinsic to the sexes what so ever.
The point of the message is reinforced by the fact that the modern guy is twisting themselves up over “completely unrelated” things. You guys are literally complaining about things that reinforce the main point.
I would argue they’re the victims and the ones making society that way at the same time.
When I was a kid “that’s gay” and calling people “fags” was very very common. Even in The Office Micheal calls stuff “faggy”.
It was pretty heavily shamed and my dad was very worried my brothers or I might turn out gay if we played with our sister’s toys. I had an uncle say to be careful or we’d turn out with “limp wrists” and he did that stereotypical gay wrist gesture.
And does anyone else remember “metrosexual”? I got called that because I liked wearing nice clothes and putting product in my hair (growing up the expectation in the town I was from was that men tucked in their shirts and made themselves look nice, so that being borderline gay confused the heck out of me).
Nowadays I never ever hear that kind of language (except for online trolls), and that family is very much fine with LGBTQ people (except still fairly confused on the trans parts).
Progress has been slow buts better than I thought it would be as a kid — even the Pope preaches acceptance of gay people (though this gets him some hate).
Yeah as a trans woman I was beaten up for being feminine as a kid. Nothing like how it was for older generations, but I definitely remember it. I remember learning to fear femininity in any form including looking nice in a polished masculine way because it was seen as gay and queerness came with ostracism or at least some people being uncomfortable with you.
It’s easy to forget that that era was a thing, but jeez I remember so many jokes about how anyone who drove a Prius had to be gay, ironically from the same people who constantly whined about gas prices.
I’m so sorry you had to go through that, I was a straight kid and got pushed around for the mere accusations, I can’t imagine how it feels to be beaten up for who you actually are inside.
For what it’s worth, one of my best friends is trans and all my family mentioned above was very nice to her at my wedding, so at least in some circles people really have changed (my family was never hateful, just ignorant before). I wish I could say it was universal.
Yeah people don’t seem to remember just how accepted and extreme homophobia was. That fag word you mentioned? That was used at least once in nearly every episode of Will and Grace. A primetime sitcom. The vast majority of times it was said was also by a straight character, not by Will or Jack. Was also said in a derogatory tone or at least a shameful one. Was one of the reasons why W&G was loathed by a lot of the community. The gay characters were stereotypes that were used to laugh at but had no furthering of themselves. It’s also why the revival failed so miserably. After 20 years it was made abundantly clear that the gay characters were flat and 2D.
Basically the flagship show for gay guys in the early 2000s was made with a surprising amount of homophobia baked in. That’s how bad shit was. Even when we got what we asked for and when a lot of us were super stoked about it, we were happy about homophobia simply because it was still less than what was before. Things hve gotten a lot better but it’s still pretty bad. Constantly reminded that I’m different and lesser.
If hairy sweaty men were not so monumentally attractive then I’d shred my gay card without a moment’s hesitation.
I think I have to give some of those shows a pass, simply because as a small town straight kid Will & Grace and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy were the first gay people I ever saw.
I distinctly remember my brother put them on as a joke and then we all sat and watched them and learned gay people weren’t that different.