For the second time this month the Biden administration is bypassing Congress to approve an emergency weapons sale to Israel as Israel continues to prosecute its war against Hamas in Gaza under increasing international criticism.
So why tf can’t we do this for Ukraine?
Israeli genocide campaign
So hot right now
Because Joey is a Zionist.
My guess would be that there are many decades of existing treaties and legislation that allows the executive to do this for Israel. Ukraine’s troubles are just under 2 years old
The war in Ukraine started in 2014.
I was trying to provide an honest, helpful answer about the probable reason why the executive branch can take unilateral decisions about arms to Israel but not to Ukraine.
The current arrangements for arms supplies to Ukraine go back 2 years.
The current arrangements for arms supplies to Ukraine go back 2 years.
the current agreement with Israel doesn’t even go back that far. Things change. We’ve been treating Ukraine as an important partner since at least the Obama administration. Bush Jr wanted them in NATO back in 2008. Nobody is contending that Israel has been an ally for longer. But Ukraine isn’t exactly some rando, either. they’re a key partner- and were, at least, an up-and-coming regional power house. a power house that Russia saw moving increasingly westward in it’s political affiliations. (and Ukraine has historically been one of the world’s largest grain suppliers. during the Soviet Era, they produced all the grain for the Soviet Union.)
The history lesson is great. But are you claiming that the treaties and procedures that allow the US executive to supply arms to Israel without congressional say-so and the procedures for supplying arms to Ukraine are the same?
Because I’m saying that is unlikely- and largely accounts for the current disparity
? We did like 25 times over the last five years.
For someone who characterizes others as “casual observer of politics”, you sure don’t seem to be aware of, nor understand, current events.
Does the Ukraine have oil?
Your own link suggests a Maybe at best.
The considerable natural resources in Ukraine’s energy sphere remain underexplored and underused today despite the fact that their use could spur economic growth…
It then goes on to say it would cost about 20 Billion dollars to put in the infrastructure to even begin refining/piping the oil.
Israel is already pumping and exporting oil. It’s also already in bed with the US. From a corporate greed perspective, the choice is easy.
His link says yes, this is an intentionally incorrect response. Either that or you are an idiot speaking with confidence. But your description of Israel as a major oil producing state makes it pretty certain you are lying intentionally.
Because Republicans are stonewalling aid for Ukraine right now. At the same time, they fast-tracked an aid package to Israel. Know where their priorities lie.
Israel is officially a US Ally, Ukraine is not.
Bullshit semantics.
Don’t be antisemantic, bro.
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Go ahead, then. Regale us with your brilliance.
The post above told you everything. Israel is an ally, Ukraine is not. To say that the distinction is merely semantic and not legally significant in every conceivable way shows a total lack of maturity and understanding of how the United States government operates, and how diplomacy and affairs of state are conducted. It’s like something a little kid would say honestly.
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, and as fucked up as it may sound in light of very recent events, Israel represents the only long term chance for hundreds of millions of people in the middle east for human rights. It’s not unlike America: It is not the country or the people that are a danger to the world, it is greed and nationalism. What Israel’s current government is doing in response to an unprecedented terror attack ks really a domestic issue, affecting a comparative handful of people as to what would be affected by an Iran-Israel war, which is absolutely what would happen if America hangs its ally out to dry, not to mention all the goodwill and credibility we’d lose with our other global partners.
You’re downvoted because you’re full of shit. Show me how one is legally an ally and the other isn’t. Since you invoked legal significance. Further, for your bullshit point to stand, you’d have to demonstrate how it is not within Congress’s control, or the President’s unilateral control, to render Ukraine a “legal ally”, or whatever the fuck else you fancy your bullshit criterion to be.
You’re at the peak of Mt. Stupid.
https://www.dsca.mil/foreign-military-sales-faq
Do FMS Sales require Congressional Notification?
Section 36 of the U.S. Arms Export Control Act requires Congressional notification for FMS or DCS sales expected to meet or exceed the following thresholds:
For North Atlantic Treaty Organization member countries, South Korea, Australia, Japan, Israel, and New Zealand: major defense equipment (MDE) of $25M or more; any defense articles or services of $100M or more; or design and construction services of $300M or more.
For all other countries: MDE of $14M or more; any defense articles and services of $50M or more; or design and construction services of $200M or more.
For North Atlantic Treaty Organization member countries and organizations, South Korea, Australia, Japan, Israel, and New Zealand there is a 15-day statutory notification period.
For all other countries there is a 30-day statutory notification period.
Additional Resource: Arms Sales - Congressional Review Process
This is of course the actual and true answer.
Lol.
Genocide Joe could easily do it he just doesn’t want to
Bro, it’s like they wanna lose so badly next year election. Listen to the people voting for you, for fuck sake.
LMFAO. Vote for Trump. That’ll surely help the Arabs…who he fucking banned from America on his first day in office last time. Super big brain move by the pro pally crowd if they pull that one off.
I’ve decided I’m just not voting next election. I’m sick of all the drama and lies, The US is fucked anyway, might as well not leave it on life support. Between constant wars, inability to handle the most basic of citizens needs and each party being a pissing contest I just decided there’s no point in doing so. Not like either candidate follows their user bases values anyway and it’s super unlikely anyone else will win. I’ll change my mind when I see evidence that says otherwise. I’ve given it 8 years and seen no real big change.
I don’t blame you. It’s exhausting to see American leadership spending the minimal amount of political capital to please the ruling class while working class Americans suffer and we see our tax dollars funding wars and genocide abroad. I’ve decided to vote for Claudia and Karina on the PSL ticket. It will be the first time ever voting for PSL but I am so done supporting conservative Democrats offering last minute concessions after flopping through the entirety of their term.
Thanks for sharing!
For those reading this and think third party votes are “A wAsTE oFA vOtE”
It’s a waste of your vote to vote for someone you don’t want in office, just because you dislike the other likely candidate more.
A third party votes move to change main party platforms. If enough people vote for a third party, a major party is more likely to take up those stances to get those votes. Your vote isn’t always abouting winning.
Idiotic take.
How many civilian deaths is Biden responsible for and how many was trump responsible for? trump is probably the lesser of 2 evils in that respect at this point
Idiotic, totally clueless take.
Brilliant response I’m totally owned. Have fun voting for genocide
Hundreds of thousands of people that died from covid likely would have lived had anyone else been in office, even other Republicans. If I was a law and order type I’d say Trump should be hanged for mass murder. But you could say the same of Biden when looking at his political history really.
After seeing the way Biden has handled covid you really think he would’ve done anything better than trump in 2020? I really really doubt it.
Biden has always pushed for more bombing in the middle east his record speaks for itself he’s a bloodthirsty imperialist.
Trump ramped up killing civilians with drone strikes under his administration.
“Airwars, estimates the number to be as great as 7,500.”
That’s direct deaths ordered by Trump which is completely different Biden allowing an arm sale planned months/years ago to go through.
Biden gave Natenyahu carte blanche after oct 7th and told him the US would have his back no matter what. Biden is in the position to put pressure on the Israeli gov but refuses to do so. The blood is on his hands
Yeah, let the greater evil win earlier, what a plan. JFC
Considering my state banned the most likely primary republican candidate, I don’t think the democratic Party is dying for my specific vote. And if they were, my recommendation is to find someone who can walk the walk. I don’t think the current one failed but, I think his priorities are in the wrong location. That is the entire point of the voting system, “you can’t not vote X or Y will win” is a toxic mindset, changes never happen if you just blindly vote regardless of situation.
I think people are finally asking themselves “If I’m voting for a lesser evil, and every vote of my lifetime has been a vote for ‘lesser evil’, is it the ruling class itself that is evil?”
Your choice is between killing some or killing them all. Trump has said he will deport all Muslims as dictator on day 1. He expressed no sympathy for Gaza instead saying he wants it to play out.
It’s the lesser of 2 evils. The world isn’t fair. But you have the power to stop the worse evil.
Thank you for not supporting anyone committing genocide.
Either a third party or no vote.
Honestly, I’m sure the right wing loves this. They love a good war, and Trump won’t give that to them.
On the flip side, watch Trump convince them all to denounce war. That would be hilarious.
I’m already not voting for Joey.
Never voting for the lesser evil again.
The entire world can burn in hell, for all I care. It’s what we deserve for constantly pussy-ing out.
So instead of just not voting and pussy-ing out encourage yourself and others to do more than just abstain. Voting is only one basic step for a society, we need to take real actions to make the change we want. Part of pussy-ing out is the idea that voting is all we can do, and now that voting seems useless we are just boned. There have always been people on the ground agitating for the real progress.
Lots of us believe in Israel’s right to defend itself. You’re on Lemmy, so it can seem that this isn’t a divided or divisive issue, but I assure you it is–especially among people who know their history. Another reason the bulk of the 18-24 group is making up a lot of the Hamas sympathizers.
Not looking to debate it eith you, but I PROMISE, if you get out of the Lemmy bubble you’ll find it’s not a cut and dry situation like you framed it.
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Yet that’s exactly what Israel has done for decades and every gd President has backed them on it.
Nothing ever changes.
sigh
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Hamas has launched over 10,000 rockets at Israel in November alone. If Israel is getting bombed, they should be able to defend themselves.
If you had caught me before the Oct attack, we’d probably have agreed on more. All the collective punishment pre Oct was obviously war crimes, and Bibi and much of Likud should be tried and convicted as war criminals. Even with the constant war crimes (with the approval of the Palestinian people) of launching rockets at civilians, collective punishment wasn’t warranted.
All the other failed measures were better to try (walls and shit). But it’s ridiculous to sit by and not do something about the October attack and encourage these terrorists just like ignoring all their other terrorism for decades has done.
I’ve yet to hear a realistic and potentially effective solution for dealing with Hamas, other than eradicating them. But I’d love to know how the current efforts could be supplanted by something more effective.
For over two decades, tens of thousands of rockets have been lobbed into Israel with the support of the Palestinanian people who gladly elected Hamas while they did so and continued to do so to this day. This isn’t a homogenous group of innocents. That’s a Lemmy fantasy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
Currently, they run at 75% approval for the Oct. 7th attack.
There is no nation on earth who would have tolerated two decades of tens of thousands of rockets launched at civilians. And that’s while having tried walls, fences, border crossings, and on and on. All of which were decried as barbaric to Gaza (with reason), and which clearly failed to stop rocket attacks, and then October.
The twenty years of rocket attacks launched at civilians by the palestians are all war crimes. There’re no innocent parties here.
There’s only one difference between Israel and any other nation defending themselves from decades of war crimes and terrorist attacks… you can figure out what that is… just like everyone cries that they’re so passionate about the humanitarian crisis, but two of the largest humanitarian situations, Haiti and the DRC (with over 7 million displaced) get jack shit for news coverage.
People cover this conflict bc it’s trendy and religion.
Israel’s right to defend itself
This is one of the dumbest dogwhistles in existence. Everyone knows that’s not the actual point of contention.
It actually is a huge point of contention. That misunderstanding causes a lot of profanity and anger.
It’s not though, that is just false. No one in good faith will deny that a country has a right to defend themselves from an attack.
Setting aside your defense of genocide, it’s a divided issue, but support for Palestine is higher among democrats, and especially young democrats. Biden is actively losing young voters moment by moment, and that will lose him the election if he doesn’t fix it.
You don’t know what genocide is, and you demean the term by abusing it. As do a lot of people who have misappropriated it for propaganda reasons.
And yes, I know the younger the voter, the less history and background they have on this issue, and this the more knee jerk and blindly they react to Hamas propaganda. That’s one of the main points.
Genocide is action or intent to destroy a people in whole or in part because of their status as a member of that group. Israeli officials have made it clear numerous times that their ultimate goal is the removal of the Palestinian people from Palestine, which will result in mass death and destruction of their culture. This is textbook genocide.
You’re absolutely right that outside of “the lemmy bubble” you may find a shitload of unintelligent dumbasses. People incapable of critical thinking or the ability to form a thought of their own.
That was eloquent and a well supported argument. I’m convinced!
Soooo fucking naive.
A lot of us believe in Palestinian’s right to defend themselves as well. I work in a city, among many people that have no idea what Lemmy even is, there is a Palestinian flag on my work’s building and we feel grief at the atrocities committed by Israel. You’re right it isn’t cut and dry, but the support for Israel is at the lowest I have ever seen in my life.
Let these people think this is public opinion. Let them vote for Trump. They hate dissenting opinions, they’re about to find out what that looks like when you support Hamas because the GOP is looking at them like they wrote the playbook. This is a clear case of the Left having the leopards circling and looking for some faces. They’re starting on university campus and will keep eating lol.
These people are just so gullible.
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I feel like I once again have to ask why? Why does Israel need these weapons so badly that you have to bypass even Congressional approval? Republicans wouldn’t exactly oppose such an approval, they haven’t shown any lack of support for supporting Israel, just Ukraine. And Israel certainly doesn’t need the weapons for defense, as claimed by the State Department in the article.
Israel is very handedly and with minimal resistance killing thousands of Palestinians. They don’t really need any additional arsenals.
Unless this is in preparation for Netanyahu’s claimed invasion of Lebanon and beyond? Is Biden openly supporting the expansion of the conflict?
This is my question as well. Is Israel running out of weapons? Maybe they could stop blowing the fuck out of hospitals and shit.
I’ve been awfully understanding of the complexities of geopolitics for Biden. Publicly supporting an ally isn’t a deal-breaker for me, but to do an end run around Congress to give more weapons and money to one of the best armed countries in the middle east so that they can commit more atrocities is a really bad look.
Still voting for him because fuck Trump and fuck fascism, but this is really hurting my opinion of him.
I think they are systematically mass tank shelling houses in Northern and now Middle Gaza.
They are using an insane amount of ammo because their goal is complete destruction of all infrastructure so the Palestinians have nowhere to return to.
I’m really hoping someone runs against him in the primary. I would say anyone, but then I remember anti-vaxxer extraordinaire RFK Jr is planning on running and also orb lady is still out there. So maybe not anyone, but there’s plenty of actually good candidates that could run against Biden.
I don’t think any of them have a realistic shot at beating a sitting President in a primary. I’m voting not Trump no matter what, and I’ll be happy to vote for someone other than Biden, but realistically this is the match up. Biden will get the nomination and the supreme court will eventually rule that Trump can’t be kept off the ballot. I’ve accepted it.
At least I think it will be really fucking hard to campaign or raise funds from the hot seat in a criminal court pretty much every day leading up to the election.
Who is there though? In four more years we need another person to run against Trump… again…
Obama was plucked out of obscurity and was an okay President. There are plenty of people who could stand up and get the job done, but about 5 minutes after this election is the time to start vetting them and making sure they have a better position on the middle east.
Also if Trump doesn’t win this time he’s done.
I honestly think if Trump was put in prison it would increase support and donations from average fans of his, it helps seal the idea that he is a persecuted outsider fighting against the deep state.
The end goal of the money, besides grifting, is to get him elected. That’s just not going to happen if he’s convicted. I really don’t think it will happen because he’ll be so busy with 3 or 5 or whatever criminal trials that he just won’t have the time or ability to campaign effectively.
So honestly I’m so for these saps throwing their money at him to set it on fire. Better trump than someone competent.
Even RFK Jr is a staunch Israel supporter too, so no escape there
Better the devil you know. Unfortunately, I know both devils intimately well.
Israel has more influence over the US than American citizens.
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The absolute refusal to look at the mountain of video evidence of genocide is appalling.
They do see it. They know. They’re enacting this genocide because they want to. The US government is and always has been genocidal.
People saying how can the US support genocide, the question is how can we stop them from supporting a genocide?
Why is this called a weapons sale?
Because it is a sale that was planned before the Gaza slaughter. Congress does not approve sales. Congress could pass a resolution to block the sale but they don’t approve them.
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Regarding the “it’s not aid, it’s a sale” point that some have brought up, we give israel billions of dollars every single year and biden has pledged 100+ billion more since the ramping up of the genocide. Whether they’re paying for it now or not, they’re doing it with our money.
So why can’t Biden sign an executive order to cancel student debt?
Zionism is more important
Question, if I vote for Biden and he wins and keeps supporting genocide, does that make me partly responsible for these kids dying? Don’t love the prospect of having dead inocent children’s blood on my hands.
Your choice is is kill a little or kill a lot. Trump has promised to deport all Muslims and in response to Palestine deaths, said he wants to see how it plays out.
just to be clear is Biden the kill a little option or the kill a lot one?
I guess as guilty as not voting for Biden and arms sales continuing regardless of who is in power. Your tax money still foots the bill and the cheque is in your collective names.
No wait if whatever I do child murders stay the same then it’s not my fault, I’m only responsible for stuff that I have control over, by definition. I’m worried about how much influence I personally have over how many innocent Palestinian kids are murdered.
A little bit, like saying German citizens were responsible for the holocaust for not standing up against the Nazis. They should have but when faced with violent repression you don’t necessarily blame them for not doing more. There is widespread knowledge of the military-industrial complex and the global stream of death for profit, but how many people are blocking ports to stop weapons shipments? We can vote for whoever but there is so much more that needs to be done.
Which is kind of true right? I mean aren’t German citizens a bit to blame for the holocaust? And in my hypothetical case we’d be even worse since we’d be actively voting to keep the holocaust alive not just being passive observers.
I think so, at least partially, average German citizens did know what was happening, plenty of people did resist, especially earlier on, with the brutality of the Nazis it’s hard to say if they could have done more.
Today I don’t think there is a politician who would have much of a chance to win that wouldn’t support Israel at least as much as Biden, so I would say a person doesn’t share much blame just for voting. We can vote for whoever but there is more we can do, like boycotting companies that support Israel or organizing actions aimed at stopping arms shipments.
US elections are very much a “best worst choice” as the candidate is chosen by the party machine, and selected to best meet the party’s need and win by at least 1 vote.
If you voted for Obama, your responsible for the drone bombing deaths of children.
If you voted for Bush, you’re responsible for the children who died in Iraq.
If you voted for Trump, you’re an idiot but I digress. If you are an American who votes, you’ve elected people who authorize military action that leads to civilian death.
vote Biden to make things better he is not Trump
man…that really is the situation Im in, huh. Fkn surreal
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Yeah that’s all accurate. Also under increasing pressure from Biden. Not sure how anyone serious can blame Biden for Israel’s response, though. They have a national mandate similar to the US after 9/11. You think the president of France or something could have called off George W. from Iraq?
No. At any rate, even if the current right wing leadership on Israel literally genocides every Palestinians, the US is not going to let Israel deplete its readiness for war with Iran . If anything, America will likely use this opportunity to increase Israel’s defense preparedness, just as we have been doing with Kiev and Taiwan. After all, right now, doing so is a proportionate response, from Iran’s vantage, to Iran’s sponsoring of Hamas.
I agree Israel’s ongoing prosecution, to such extent, is out of proportion. Unfortunately, Hamas has apparently erected tunnel warfare capabilities that were beyond what US and Israeli intelligence knew of, according to NYT reporting, and also, and this is the big one, America doesn’t control Israel’s national defenses.
The middleeast is undeniably the single most important region of the world as far as global security and Israel is undeniably the only (flawed) democracy in the region.
I don’t know what card sheep in this thread think Biden has to play with Israel, here. There is literally no appetite in Washington from anyone to abandon Israel as it will 100% lead to an Iran-Israel war that might kill a hundred million people. Like let’s get real about the stakes here. There aren’t, 5,000,000 people in all of Palestine. That’s half of Iran’s capital city, which Israel will turn into a parking lot before it surrenders to the “supreme leader” of the backwards ass shithole of conservative nationalism that is Iran.
