Having large numbers of people starve to death seems like a pretty damning indictment of a system. But I dunno, maybe I’m overly attached to food?
Oh geeze, this seems like it’s going to be a productive discussion that’s starting out in good faith.
Ahahaha, this is probably the most the most reasonable take here!
Idk if you’re just stirring the pot or if you even care about an answer so I’ll be brief.
It doesn’t matter what economic system is used if your government is bad.
Actually how bad having a bad government is, is a function of how tightly your government controls the economy.
Some economic systems are centrally controlled, others aren’t. So yes it matters a hell of a lot.
A lot of people Starve to death under Capitalism every damn day while excess food is destroyed to secure more of a profit. Not having enough to go around is bad and happened alot before the advent of modern farming techniques, but creating that deficit artificially to secure a profit is damning of the viability of an economic system.
Not to defend the profit above all model but excess food destruction is largely a misconception dating to the early COVID crisis.
People spread alarmist headlines about farmers having to eliminate excess produce and byproduct,
People immediately jumped to profit reasons but it was actually because of supply chain collapse leaving them unable to ship it off before they had new produce and byproduct to put into their own storage.
Because at least in the US the rule for excess produce and byproduct is that the government buys it from you to put into cold storage for release whenever crops and production come up short due to a dry spell or a heat wave or just bad production that year.
Just to nip another potential misinformed example in the bud to boot, farmers are not paid to fallow their fields for profit reasons either, it’s to allow the soil to rejuvenate to avoid another dust bowl happening.
What do you hope to get from this post?
I’m morbidly curious. There are a lot of folks advocating communism who seem to lack any historical context. I’m curious as to whether it’s sort of like lemmys instinctive downvoting of anything negative about biden/upvoting of anything negative of trump, or maybe it’s genuine ignorance (I don’t imagine tik tok communist enthusiasts talk all that much about the tens of millions dead) or if there is actually some sort of group rationalization.
There are a lot of folks advocating communism who seem to lack any historical context.
Do you have a historical context? Are you comparing the economic system of communism against capitalism? Or are you comparing nations who claimed to be communist but were actually authoritarian governments against democratic republics? Remember, North Korea calls themselves a Democratic Republic, names don’t mean a lot.
Do we have any historical context for a democratic republic with a communist economic system?
Here’s part of the Wikipedia definition of communism:
A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes, and ultimately money and the state (or nation state).
I’m unaware of a society like that.
Hey friend, don’t fall into propaganda yourself when talking against people like OP.
The DPRK is more democratic than you think. Kim Jong Un has less power over the DPRK than Biden over the US. Most people in their congress are unaffiliated to any parties (independents). They actually do have elections, but they work like in China, where you elect representatives to local councils, who vote for the representatives to higher councils and so on until the national council. It’s just a different system. It might not be perfect or even good, but it’s as authoritarian as any other nation with a state in the world.
Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Have you actually read anything on how the government works in the DPRK? Do you know how their elections work?
Or all you know are CIA propaganda talking points from Radio Free Asia, about how there is a “forced crying day”, or how you are forbidden from having the same haircut as Kim Jong Un, or that you are actually obligated to cut your hair just like him etc. etc…?
Is it so hard to believe what is “common knowledge” about the DPRK is mostly bullshit?
Have you actually read anything on how the government works in the DPRK? Do you know how their elections work?
Have you read anything at all about the DPRK?
Or all you know are CIA propaganda talking points from Radio Free Asia, about how there is a “forced crying day”, or how you are forbidden from having the same haircut as Kim Jong Un, or that you are actually obligated to cut your hair just like him etc. etc…?
Every kernel of information about North Korea is CIA propaganda? Is the CIA that competent?
But to answer your question, I don’t know any of those things. I do know that there is no freedom of movement, no open Internet access, and laws against accessing external media. You know, the way free societies do.
Is it so hard to believe what is “common knowledge” about the DPRK is mostly bullshit?
Yes! Every rank of functioning democracies has North Korea at the bottom, not necessarily last, but never far from it. They are an authoritarian regime. Everything you’re saying is ludicrously misguided.
I have read plenty.
And yes, a lot, the vast majority, of what you read in the west about the DPRK is CIA propaganda. The CIA has many media groups and think tanks around Asia to spew propaganda agains the “enemies” of the US. Just search for the sources for the articles, and you’ll see places like Radio Free Asia, which is a literal CIA front.
And there is no freedom of movement? In what way? The border with China is open, there are many many North Koreans living and working in China.
They don’t have access to western media, yes, that spews virulent propaganda such as the examples I gave before, which are literal news stories from the west.
You think a country should allow in straight up propaganda from countries that want to destroy them? Does that make any sense?
Like you can go there! It’s not that hard! You can see how people live, you can talk to them. Unless you truly believe North Koreans are all absolutely brainwashed automatons with no individual thoughts, who would you believe more? The people of North Korea or journalists and intelligence agents from the US and other Five Eyes countries?
And most of those “democracy” lists are absolutely bullshit! The US is always at the top, and it’s one of the least democratic countries in the world. You vote for a president, but actually elect delegates who don’t need to vote for your choice at all. The government gerrymanders and creates laws that impede minorities and poor people from voting. Every research about it shows the government represents the will of a minority of like 5% of voters.
Why do you think that is? Most of the organisations that make those lists are just think tanks linked to the American Empire and the neoliberal project.
And why are you being so defensive about the idea North Korea might not be the devil or hell on earth? Why would that be so bad? Why do you have to so aggressively defend the talking points of the Empire against one of the few nations on Earth it doesn’t control…?
Do you actually know anybody who is bemoaning the communism of 1910?
We don’t even have moderate capitalism anymore, and that’s a much more real problem. Today’s fight is between extreme capitalism and super extremist perverted capitalism.
People starved many many times in those places before the communist revolutions. People starved all over the world under many economic systems. Most of the time due to climate events.
That is basically what happened in the two famines you are thinking of. There was extreme drought in Europe and Central Asia for decades, which did kill a lot of people. In Russia, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and yes Ukraine. They also died in Eastern Europe, Southern Europe, parts of the Middle East. Just like many died in the US from massive droughts in the decade before.
What you probably purposefully leave out is how there was never famine again in the USSR. People experienced better caloric intake than the US up until the collapse of the union and neoliberal shock-therapy brought hunger back.
In any case, was there mismanagement during the famine of the 30s? Yea, of course.
Was there sabotage by counterrevolutionaries? Yes, of course.
Who is to blame? Not a single person, and likely not even people in general tbh.
Almost all of this also applies to the famine in China.
So idk, I know the OP doesn’t care and isn’t trying to look for an alternative to his narrative. But others who come in here might take something positive from the comments we leave.
You didn’t mention all the farmers who got killed in Ukraine. Why not? Don’t you think murdering a bunch of farmers might have had something to do with the famine?
No “farmer” was “murdered”… Kulaks were killed yes, but they were the counterrevolutionary forces that were burning food supplies. They were literally in armed struggle against the state and were committing acts of terrorism. What do you suppose was the correct response against them?
Reminding you that most were not killed, and were just arrested.
Tankies gonna tank.
Didn’t they also have mass starvation before Communism and then become superpowers after?
Starvation was a regularly cited cause of uprising during dynastic change in China
Looks like you already have your mind made up
A lot of “whatabout capitalism?” responses here.
Stalin and Mao are to communism what Hitler is to facism.
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How about you write a sentence with a stance and a little bit of actual insight rather than an open ended question that doesn’t really have anywhere to hop off of?
The mass starvation wasn’t because of communism it was because of bad science.
