Huh so apparently it’s because of Latin?
Quoting an old comment
Fish isn’t considered meat because English and Latin are slightly different languages. For hundreds of years Catholics were not allowed to eat meat on Friday. But the language of the church is Latin, and what Catholics were not allowed to eat is ‘carne’ which is the flesh of creatures from the land or the sky. So fish was fine.
Also. around the mediterrainian, fish is a food staple of the poor. The point is to eliminate excess.
I’d argue that an inlander ordering fish at a fancy restaurant on a Friday during Lent is not following the spirit of the law (which can be more of a discipline than a rule, depending on the local episcopal authority), especially if it’s not a special occasion and the fish was caught hundreds of kilometers away.
The inlander could eat freshwater fish like trout or carp, no fancy saltwater fish.
The point has been missed.
Sorry, I thought it was clear: there was and is also fish ‘Inland’ that is poor people’s food.
I can’t believe all this religious people that pull off these loopholes really believe in a god…
If it really exists, it’s gonna bust your ass.
In some religious traditions, it’s not believed that they’re loopholes, or cheating.
If the written rules are the precise literal words of your deity who can make no errors, then if something is technically allowed it’s allowed on purpose.
The deity wouldn’t make a mistake or try to trick people into following a rule that wasn’t written.Yahweh says no tending a fire on Saturday. Alright, what is “fire”? Is electricity fire? Is it a prohibited labor? Time to think.
God says no eating creatures of the land or sky. Well, otters aren’t of the land or sky, so fair game.
Allah says no pork unless your life depends on it. Is processed porcine collagen still pork if it’s used in artificial heart valves? What level of chemical transformation is required to remove the “pork-ness”?The belief that a deity cares about the spirit of the the written rules and not the words is itself a religious belief.
Which, in some religions, means it’s open to debate to figure out exactly what it means. :PThat thinking only works if you don’t realize that it’s all in interpretation, its not a loophole persay it’s a series of loopholes you sorta work around and jump through.
Loophole to me means that you found a way to cheat the system.
If you believe your deity is entirely onboard with being a rules lawyer, then finding clever ways to do things while following the rules is just “following the rules”.
If your deity says no firestarting on a Saturday, so you start it on Friday to use Saturday, why would you be in trouble for following the rules?So if I get some to agree that fire is only flame from wood grown from trees native to Israel, then I can barbecue on Saturday and it’s Kosher.
( The idea being that if rules are allowed to be interpreted, then they can be interpreted into anything. If electricity is fire (many Jewish sects say yes), then my sect can say oxidized propane isn’t fire and also be correct.
Yup, that tracks. As you mentioned, there are disagreements about the exact meaning and consequences of the prohibition already, so if you can find source material to back your argument, you can argue it.
They don’t view it as interpretation, but as closer to a legal argument. There’s the written law, and that’s what matters, the deity won’t judge you based on unwritten laws, because their goal was to write down the criteria that you’ll be judged by and the rules you need to follow, not to judge you based on your ability to infer the intent of the rules based on what they told you. Similar to how, when you go to court in the legal system, you’re judged by the law as written, not by the intent of the congressperson who proposed the law.The belief that it’s the spirit that matters and not the letter of the law is itself a religious belief derived from early Christian rejection of the legalistic aspects of Judaism. It’s why so many people in this thread have such a “well of course you’re not supposed to debate the semantics of your religion, you’re supposed to know what God meant and do that instead”. Same for when someone “cheats” the legal system to “escape punishment” by “getting off on a technically”, since what they did was supposed to be punishable. Legally, that’s called “following the law”, or “making a valid legal argument”.
Some religions and people just don’t hold that belief, and so “what if an argued position clearly subverts the intent of the rule” just isn’t a compelling negative consequence, it’s just part of what happens with debate.It’s got no bearing on either of our points, but I believe the Jewish interpretation isn’t that electricity is fire, generally, but that incandescent lightbulbs violate the prohibition on “igniting a fire”, and that many other applications violate prohibitions on things like “lifting”, “doing work”, or “cooking”.
So electricity isn’t the issue, but rather what you do with it, and even if you argue that it’s only fire if it’s Israeli wood, you’d also have to argue that BBQ wasn’t cooking.Jewish interpretation isn’t that electricity is fire,
Unfortunately that was original the interpretation. It has since been amended into “building a circuit” and/or “doing work” as explanations. Of course neither of those hold up because turning on a water tap or turning a door knob aren’t prohibited.
So there is no basis for following laws. It’s only tradition and tradition can be however you define a word.
BBQ can be declared as not cooking by definition just like turning on a cold water faucet is declared as not work by definition.
I’ll admit that I’m not entirely sure what point you’re arguing anymore. If you think religious law is malleable through argument, then religious law changing after argument or discussion isn’t a problem, it’s just how it works.
Wouldn’t you know, there’s actual debate with citations about faucets and the circumstances In which they’re permitted or not. It’s not “all work” that’s prohibited, but specific categories in certain circumstances. I’m neither a Rabbi, a scholar of talmudic law nor even Jewish so my understanding of the specifics are only about as deep as curiosity has taken me over the years. I don’t think the specifics matter for this discussion.
Yes, there’s nothing actually tangible about any law, religious or otherwise that compells people to follow it beyond cultural momentum. Words lack inherent meaning and it’s only through shared convention that we agree on meaning or order in our society.
No one legit believes any of that shit or they wouldn’t sin in multiple every fucking day.
They believe in whatever suits their interests best.
you reminded me of this as well https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/09/residents-divided-over-plans-for-eruv-in-north-london
One man wrote: “My wife suffered a stroke five years ago. She is no longer able to stand or walk. She is confined to a wheelchair at all times.” An eruv would allow him to take her to the synagogue on Shabbat, he said.
Dude wtf
Can you believe that?
no, but they do
Oh, that’s nothing compared to what’s going on in Judaism…
My favorite is the string they put all around Manhattan, so that they can trick God into thinking that they’re really at home while running errands on shabbat.
Eh, they don’t really view it as “tricking God”, because in their view you can’t trick God.
It’s pretty specific that you’re not allowed to transfer things between “domains” in specific ways, and that a domain is a property of enclosure, not ownership.The intent was clearly to keep people from leaving their communities on the holy day, given that the stories talk about bringing things into and out of Jerusalem being the problem, and use “home” in the context where a new Yorker would reasonably call Manhattan home.
Further, if your religion is literally the source of “the spirit versus the letter of the law” reaction of Christianity, then it follows that your religion might take a more legalistic approach to religious interpretation than the breakaway sect that’s influenced much of the English speaking worlds conceptions of how people should engage with religion.
Eh, they don’t really view it as “tricking God”, because in their view you can’t trick God.
It’s not so much “tricking God” as “shuddup God grown-ups are talking”.
That’s awesome. “God, you specifically gave us a list of rules, one of which says we’re not supposed to listen to unilateral commands from the heavens, so you coming down and giving your opinion on this is kinda out of line” and then God’s just like “<checks notes>…You know what? Fair. Point taken, carry on.”
I love that that’s just a part of the religion, and it pretty clearly underlines the “you’re supposed to think about and debate this stuff” part.
Except… that rule is actually an extremely liberal interpretation of the original scripture. “It is not in heaven” refers to Deuteronomy 30:
- For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
- It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’
- Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’
- But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Which is basically a lot of words to say “what I’m asking of you is not impossible”. Rabbi Yehoshua quoted that verse as kind of a wordplay (since Rabbi Eliezer made a voice appear from heaven), and Rabbi Yirmeya twisted that to say “it no longer belongs to God, he can no longer decide”.
BTW - if you read the original text in the Talmud, and ignore Rabbi Yirmeya’s interpretation and Rabbi Natan’s supernatural story about God proclaiming “My children have triumphed over Me” (we can determine that these two are later additions because the Talmud makes sure to give credit to the tannaim that added them - unlike the original tale which is uncredited) you get a whole different story about how Rabbi Eliezer is doing all sorts of “miracles” trying to prove his authority while the rest of the Sanhedrin standing there unimpressed because unlike the unwashed masses this kind of performance usually works on - they know how these magic tricks work, and would very like to get over that part and continue with their halachic discussion.
At any rate, the twisting of the scriptures is very very common in the halacha. The very “rule” that presumably allows them to twist the scriptures is also a twist of the scriptures. Deuteronomy 17 says:
- If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, even matters of controversy within thy gates; then shalt thou arise, and get thee up unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose.
- And thou shall come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days; and thou shalt inquire; and they shall declare unto thee the sentence of judgment.
- And thou shalt do according to the tenor of the sentence, which they shall declare unto thee from that place which the LORD shall choose; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they shall teach thee.
- According to the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do; thou shalt not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare unto thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
- And the man that doeth presumptuously, in not hearkening unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die; and thou shalt exterminate the evil from Israel.
- And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.
Which basically says, again in so many words (I think God knew his words were going to get twisted, so he took the extra effort to be very very clear and precise. It didn’t work), “if there is a dispute go to these people who have the authority to judge, and act according to what they rule”. Which is pretty much how a judicial system operates. But they took this passage and said “see! it says right there - ‘they shall tell thee, thou shalt do’. This means you have to do e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g we say! No questions asked!”
And to this day, Jewish people would still quote that part to prove that the Talmud’s authority is legitimate while completely ignoring the context it was taken out of.
People are different. Some Hasidic groups (like those easy to see in Manhattan of what I’ve heard) do that and even more stupid things, similar to talismans and such. But Judaism frankly doesn’t even have an idea of schism, so.
Exploiting a series of obscure antiquated strictures to convince yourself that you’re going to get a big reward in the afterlife is central to all sorts of religious traditions. Its no different than chasing loopholes while filing your tax return, and then applauding yourself for winning a big rebate check.
In a world run by petty bureaucrats and dogmatic priests, why wouldn’t you believe that God was the most petty and dogmatic of them all?
“Herrgottsbscheisserle”
That’s the word you are looking for. We also ate beaver on fridays, they are fish!
For lent, beaver counts as fish
Thats the pickup line I use on devout catholics.
Ah yes, the beaver reacharound
Save the poophole loophole for 2nd date
Fish: live in water
Beavers: also live in water
checks out
Some birds live in water… even though they are creatures of the sky…so is duck ok for lent?
You rang?
Is there already a !beetlejuicing on a lemmy instance?
what*
Not “how”.
Who?
When?
TIL about swabian ravioli. And now I want some.
Not eating meat on Fridays is an invention of the church. Jesus never said that.
Conveniently enough church said beavers are fish so they had meat to eat while others suffer.
abstaining from the consumption of animal flesh isn’t suffering. Quite the opposite.
Spot the vegan.
Implying vegans should be invisible or hard to spot?
Implying any mention of meat you come crawling out of woodwork.
only when it seems to be getting promoted.
Half the fun of the Christianities is endlessly debating what Jesus did or did not say.
I mean, that’s presumably all written in the Bible. More often than not, the question isn’t what he said but what he meant by it, and there’s certainly no shortage of opinions on that.
I agree that is one of the more common things to debate, probably more common than what he did say. But that’s also only true as long as you confine yourself to the Bible as it exists today. When you look into the history, archeological record, and textual criticism though, things get much more complicated as quite a few more groups wrote about what Jesus was purported to teach than the Catholic and Protestant churches would like you to believe.
Robert Price’s, “Pre-Nicene New Testament” is a good introduction to just how diverse and radically different early Christianity was. Bart Erhman is another great author who clearly cares more about what’s true, than what fits a churches dogma.
