Sharing because I found this very interesting.

The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective has a DIY design for a home lab you can set up to reproduce expensive medication for dirt cheap, producing medication like that used to cure Hepatitis C, along with software they developed that can be used to create chemical compounds out of common household materials.

  • bl_r@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    123
    arrow-down
    5
    ·
    3 months ago

    I fucking love pirate medicine. Fuck the US healthcare system, what good is having the “best healthcare in the world” if you can’t even afford mediocre healthcare?

    • ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      57
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      If it was the best healthcare in the world, we’d have the best outcomes and we don’t even have that for rich people. We have a (non-metric) shit ton of world class research universities and highly respected agencies like the FDA and NIH but Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, can’t even get the mental health services he obviously needs.

      I’d obviously rather go to an American hospital than a hospital in most of the world but spending a lot to cover up a shitty system isn’t as good as a functioning system.

      Edit: I originally had NHS instead of NIH but the NHS, is, obviously, where British people get their brain medicines.

      • bl_r@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        23
        ·
        3 months ago

        but Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, can’t even get the mental health services he obviously needs

        Lmfao

        I’d rather get healthcare at all. I’ve been too poor to afford any medical care at points in my life, I’d settle for even some low quality care as opposed to none at all and hoping that this new weird pain either is insignificant and goes away without issue, or it gently takes me out in the night.

        I’m excited to see where pirate medicine goes. I’ve met a trans woman who told me that her DIY HRT was life changing in the best possible way, and I can only dream of what would happen if people started making their own Insulin or T or whatever

        • ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          3 months ago

          Yep. Thanks for catching that. I meant NIH, the U.S. National Institutes of Health and accidentally combined it with HHS (the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services that NIH is an agency within) and that was apparently too many acronyms.

  • RangerJosie@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    94
    arrow-down
    7
    ·
    3 months ago

    Piracy is how you got Netflix.

    This is how we’ll change the pharmaceutical industry. They’ll overreact and Streisand Effect this and it’ll blow up. Become normalized. The open source tech will improve.

    This is a good thing. Period.

    • Mojave@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      43
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      3 months ago

      Pirating movies and games can’t kill you

      Home brewing seizure medication can

      • RangerJosie@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        62
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        edit-2
        3 months ago

        This is America dude. Human life costs $7.25 an hour here. We can’t even do anything to keep children safe from their number 1 killer here.

        Nobody cares. Those who do care are completely powerless to change anything.

        Yes. Mistakes will happen. People will die. People die every day right now. Many of them because they can’t afford life saving medicine. I’d happily take a risk on this before I’d saddle my family with $50,000 a month for medicine that you can get in Canada or Mexico for $50.

        • grue@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          15
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          3 months ago

          We can’t even do anything to keep children safe from their number 1 killer here.

          By this the parent commenter means “car crashes,” by the way. Car dependent zoning is literally mass-murdering more children than school shooters ever did and we’re doing almost nothing to fix it.

            • RangerJosie@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              6
              ·
              edit-2
              3 months ago

              Can confirm. I tried. Long time ago. Spoke to a lady at a Canadian Embassy.

              I didn’t meet the education requirements.

              Edit - For anyone curious. I’m a Highschool grad. No college. No secondary at all. Uni or tech. So, an American HS diploma isn’t enough education to be useful to a functional society In pretty much any western nation. I wasn’t even mad at the time. Kinda disappointed. But yeah. I get it.

          • ayyy@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            3 months ago

            Instructions unclear, moved to Alberta and I’m surrounded by Trump flags and austerity measures.

    • werefreeatlast@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      3 months ago

      The all new sudafeb…like Sudafed but with a D at the end because they’re chemically the same just with a D at the end.

    • dovahking@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      3 months ago

      I wish there was some kind of open source collective organization under which you could release anything with eternal open source license that’d be free forever. It could be anything from software, tech or medicine like penicillin so that megacorps could not benefit from it in any way.

      • ArchRecord@lemm.eeOP
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        3 months ago

        The Open Source Initiative has a giant list of licenses that anyone can use to make their works fully open-source.

        Some are just for code, but I’m sure they could be adapted to things like medicine, if needed.

  • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    66
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    3 months ago

    This is extremely dangerous and also something I feel must be considered a natural and obvious extension of a right I believe to be fundamental: bodily autonomy.

    Would I do this? Probably not, maybe for some medicines, that are easily made administrable from bulk chemicals but likely not. But behind all rights stands bodily autonomy. It is your flesh and not mine. If we don’t want people doing this themselves the lever we should use is easing access to expert made medicines. Desperate people do stupid things.

    Also this is cyberpunk as hell and aesthetically I’m so here for it

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      19
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      3 months ago

      This is extremely dangerous and also something I feel must be considered a natural and obvious extension of a right I believe to be fundamental: bodily autonomy.

      There is a significant distinction between the right to bodily autonomy and the right to distribute quack medicine. And that’s sort of the rub. As soon as you start marketing your product to third parties under false pretexts, we’re not longer talking about an individual’s right to self. And we get into an even more tangled web when we start talking about health care for children or the elderly, who lack the mental acuity to make informed choices.

      Also this is cyberpunk as hell and aesthetically I’m so here for it

      Everyone wants to get the military grade Sandevistan drive. Nobody thinks they’re going to succumb to cyberpsychosis.

    • Fedizen@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      9
      ·
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      I think an off the shelf microlab that can reliably synthesize a particular medicine is something that’s commercially viable, which is probably a safe middle ground here and sort of what they’re proof of concepting.

      Rather than putting together a DIY lab like this, a pre-made kit that makes one medication would easily make a ton of meds available. Not just here but all around the world.

      I would say the next step would probably be to create a certification process for microlabs categorizing their safety and effectiveness

    • MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      3 months ago

      I agree with the idea of bodily autonomy. Above all, someone should have the right to do, or not do, whatever they want with their own person.

      Whether that is to listen to doctors advice, buy pharmaceuticals and self-administer as prescribed, or even end your own life, and everything in between.

      Quick disclaimer, suicide should still be evaluated by a psychiatric professional, and simply being suicidal shouldn’t necessarily mean that nobody can, or should stop you from committing that act. I’m mostly referring to medically assisted self termination, after the appropriate safeguards, checks, and balances have been cleared. Simply wanting to off yourself without being cleared as having sound mind should be something we, as a society, should address carefully, with the assistance of mental health professionals.

      With all that being said: I probably would DIY some pharmaceuticals. Anything that’s an opiate or other restricted substance, definitely not. But if I can buy the ingredients without needing a special permit or license, I definitely would.

  • Sterile_Technique@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    56
    ·
    3 months ago

    …well, this is a good way to shine the spotlight on a massive problem. I’d be pretty hesitant to take DIY meds unless it was life-critical and my only option (which… lots of don’t have that option, and just die after hitting the health paygate…). The value here is its potential to slap some sense into the US and get our broken-as-fuck healthcare system caught up with the rest of the world so people don’t need moonshine insulin or w/e in the first place.

    That this conversation is even taking place is testament to how horrible our current system is.

    • BearOfaTime@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      9
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      3 months ago

      What’s broken is largely insurance setting prices.

      I don’t see this fixing it.

  • flicker@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    43
    ·
    3 months ago

    I believe every American knows someone whose life is made substantially worse because of a lack of access to healthcare.

    I want to set this up and learn to use it. I want to keep it and maintain it and wait. Because I’ll inevitably hear from someone that they can’t afford their life-saving medication.

    • flicker@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      13
      ·
      3 months ago

      Oh, also I have an exceedingly rare hereditary disease, so it feels like a certainty I’ll need it for myself someday.

    • ccdfa@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      edit-2
      3 months ago

      I know someone whose life is made substantially worse because they have a lack of access to healthcare. They live in Europe and can’t get access to the specialized medicine that they need in the timeframe that they need it in. I’m not saying that socialized medicine is bad—I’m actually all for it—but it needs to be implemented well for it to actually work. This is just my anecdotal evidence to say that just because everyone has access doesn’t automatically mean it’s adequate access.

      • flicker@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        3 months ago

        I can’t really comment on the European experience though, so I said American, which I am, and which I am qualified to talk about.

        • ccdfa@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          3 months ago

          I’m not European either. I’m also American. I wasn’t contradicting anything you were saying; I agree with it. I was just trying to add to the discussion by suggesting that if we are going to get universal healthcare right in America, we have to consider a lot more than just free access.

  • 2pt_perversion@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    45
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    3 months ago

    This is super cool and helpful as a resource but I really don’t think people without a chemistry background should be doing anything more than following precise instructions, hopefully with some form of verification test at the end. The idea to have people without a chemistry background use a forked version of askcos and just run with it is a little scary.

    The affordable Controlled Lab Reactor for diy is fantastic for helping people follow precise instructions to the letter just all of those instructions should be meticulously vetted by actual chemists and have some safeguard tests at the end where necessary. It seems the founder wants that vision too at the end of the conference just there’s not enough of a community yet to support it.

    • TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      3 months ago

      Yeah… This is a bit sketchy. Pharmaceuticals aren’t just something that an amateur can make by following step by step instructions. Even something as simple as baking a cake requires some basic experience to know when things are going right or wrong.

      Even maintaining the calibration on a CLR requires some background experience, let alone building and programming one all on your own. With your actual reactor being as small as a mason jar, it means the margin for error is going to be small as well.

      This is neat for people with a background in chemistry, but I don’t really see it as anything but dangerous for the general public. They also are fudging their math a bit to make things seem a lot cheaper. Reagents can be really cheap at bulk prices, but you have to spend the time looking for them, and they aren’t equating the cost of a trained chemist making these medications.

  • BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    33
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    3 months ago

    This seems both awesome and dangerous. The two analogies that come to mind are home canning and home brewing. They’re both generally safe and easy. But every so often someone gives their family botulism.

  • ayyy@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    20
    ·
    3 months ago

    Haha that name is fantastic! It’s a riff on the best selling vinegar that you get at Costco and similar places called “Four Monks” vinegar.

  • MerchantsOfMisery@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    20
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    3 months ago

    Four Thieves are legit. Controversial but they’re confronting a lot of uncomfortable truths that need to be addressed .

  • shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    20
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    3 months ago

    This is fantastic. If you know what the problem is, because you’ve been diagnosed or whatever, and you know what medicine will do it, and you are capable of making it, I see no issue at all with this. You don’t need a PhD in computer science to browse the internet.

    • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      10
      ·
      3 months ago

      You’ve gone to a malicious website. Now you’ve died.

      See, the risks of surfing the web incorrectly are slightly different than the risks of creating medicine incorrectly.

  • catch22@programming.dev
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    18
    ·
    edit-2
    3 months ago

    By far one of the most interesting articles I’ve seen on Lemmy so far, thanks for the link

    • dexa_scantron@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      ·
      3 months ago

      404 Media is doing excellent work; if you like this kind of thing you might want to sign up for their newsletter.