A top economist has joined the growing list of China’s elite to have disappeared from public life after criticizing Xi Jinping, according to The Wall Street Journal.
Zhu Hengpeng served as deputy director of the Institute of Economics at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS) for around a decade.
CASS is a state research think tank that reports directly to China’s cabinet. Chen Daoyin, a former associate professor at Shanghai University of Political Science and Law, described it as a “body to formulate party ideology to support the leadership.”
According to the Journal, the 55-year-old disappeared shortly after remarking on China’s sluggish economy and criticizing Xi’s leadership in a private group on WeChat.
Wait but Hexbear said that China is a democracy? Did they lie?!??
I had the most hilarious discussion with a Tankie about China a while back. They refused to accept that China is pretty much communist in name only. I pointed out that they had billionaires, privately-owned companies, a stock exchange and private property, meaning you can earn capital in China.
The Tankie actually said something on the lines of, “If you would JUST READ MARX you would know that earning capital is a fundamental cornerstone of communism!”
Tankies are just communist cosplayers.
I’m a communist who doesn’t want to call China a communist country, so I don’t really agree with the person that you were talking to, but your second paragraph does show you haven’t researched communism or its history. The debate of whether societies need to undergo capitalist capital accumulation first to enter communism is about as old as communism, and the history of communism is full of examples of this. It’s the ideological reason why the Russian Socialist Democratic Labor Party split into two wings: the Mensheviks and the Bolsheviks, the former believing that the Russian Empire had to undergo capitalism first in other to become communist, and the latter wanting to implement socialism to the primitive almost feudalist Russian empire. Some similar split happened more discreetly inside the Communist Party of China, with Mao implementing socialism directly to the extremely underdeveloped Chinese society, and later Deng Xiaoping opting for the more market-socialism (known now to many as "socialism with Chinese characteristics).
So you may or may not agree whether china is communist, but from your comment it’s clear that you’re very oblivious to the historical and ideological reasons for the argument as to whether china is or isn’t a socialist country and whether they’re on the path to it. It’s good to discuss things and to have opinions, but please get informed before dismissing other people’s opinions on topics they’ve probably dedicated more time than you to studying.
Weird how this path went from a communist country under Mao to a capitalist one under Xi. I guess it goes back again?
How exactly do you achieve communism via billionaires, a stock exchange, private ownership, etc.? That’s ludicrous.
I’m not myself trying to make the assertion that china is communism or that it will achieve communism, I’m saying that what you consider “ludicrous”, has been a hotly debated topic for the past 100 years with many proponents on both sides, many of them with much more knowledge of socialism and revolutions than you or I possess.
Yes. I stand by my statement that it is ludicrous to go from no private property to private property and still call yourself communist.
And I’m saying that you have clearly not dedicated much time to thinking about or studying the issue. I’m a Marxist-Leninist, so I’m not very supportive of Dengism, but if you listen to Dengists and Mensheviks they will tell you that China still has a communist party in power (as does Vietnam and as does Laos) whereas the former USSR has a capitalist proto-fascist in government. Only time will tell who’s really right, and whether china shifts to a less market-socialism society and more towards a democratic centrally planned economy in the hands of the workers and the state.
I’m not saying China isn’t a country, I’m just saying it’s hotly debated whether or not it should be called west Taiwan. Only time will tell whether the CCP admits defeat and hands over control in line with their one China policy.
Man, making shit up is fun.
Do show me where Marx said that the path to communism is eliminating private property and the ability to accrue capital and then bringing it back again.
From Wikipedia article on Mensheviks: (you’ve been talking to someone else in the comments)
So yes, mate, there are literal historical figures of communism debating this exact same issue that you find so laughable, it’s literally the raison d’etre of the word Bolshevism. There is no specific “Marx passage” as if it was the bible, where it says “in case some fella called Mao organizes a socialist revolution in a peasant agrarian society, pls pull it back to capitalism first, and then go to socialism once it’s capitalist, ok?” If you generally read Marx, you can see how he puts socialism as the necessary and logical end of capitalism, as something inevitable that will happen because capitalism will bring forward the material conditions for the revolution. But despite that, Marx also was a highly politically involved individual, who pushed forward momentously the socialist movement in Europe together with Engels.
Marx isn’t a gospel that you’re supposed to be able to chant and have undying faith for, it’s an analysis of reality that you can agree or disagree with, which explains the existence of different flavours of communism such as menshevism and bolshevism or such as Maoism and Dengism, which can be explained by the material and historical conditions leading up to those moments. Marx himself said that Marxism has to be constantly interpreting the reality of the moment and critically adapting everything. So if you’re looking for a direct quote from Marx about Dengism or Menshevism, I’m not here to provide that, I’m here to tell you that the definition you consider stupid has been hotly debated for a hundred fucking years, so maybe it’s not so stupid.
Don’t worry, ML theorists like Stalin take precedence over Marx, like how the New Testament takes precedence over the Old. It’s basic theology.
No, no, you see, people who Read Theory™ have taken a side, therefore, the position is valid. Like how the value of the holsum Khmer Rouge is debatable instead of gruesomely apparent!
If the Bolsheviks didn’t believe that Russia had to undergo capitalism then why did they implement, and I quote Lenin, state capitalism.
Also there’s already a term for socialists who tolerate capitalism, it’s social democrats. Maybe the “democrat” thing is the issue MLMs have with the whole concept, not the tolerating capitalism part.
Social Democrats don’t want a transition to communism, not even ideologically. Dengists and Mensheviks do, at least ideologically. Whether you believe that or not is a different debate, but equating socialdemocrats with mensheviks is dumb, not a dunk.
Look, I’m not here to argue for Marxism-Leninism against you because you’re obviously trying to be smug, not trying to have a civilized discussion. If you actually want some good (in my opinion) analysis of actually-existing socialism, there are plenty of Michael Parenti videos online, or you can pick up his book “Blackshirts and Reds”. But I suspect you’re just here to punch to those communists that are further left than you are. If you do want to have this discussion let me know.
Last I checked the SPD’s party program still speaks of socialism.
I’m an Anarchist. Council Communists are generally to the right of me, quite adjacent but not quite there, Tankies somehow managed to seat themselves at the very other side of the plenum.
I’m sure the SPD party program talks about the end of capitalism /s
Again, not here to engage with smug factionalists. Have a good day
I’m not a factionalist you’re the factionalist. Just agree with me and be done with it!
I mean you can still have private property under communism, it’s the capital making property that’s more owned by the workers themselves, but you can still own things under communism.
Similarly, you can earn capital under communism too, it’s just that the tools for earning said capital aren’t owned by corporations under corporations under CEOs under the 1%. It’s not a cornerstone for sure, but it’s not like communism is anti capital and growth and owning things
Directly from The Communist Manifesto:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch02.htm
Read a bit ahead if you may:
Okay? That doesn’t change the summary about private property, which is a thing in China. It wasn’t under Mao, it is now.
That’s probably the smartest tankie in existence
This is actually hilarious
Private property as in land or a house? Because that’s not how it works in China. You can only buy it for a specific set of time. Besides that it is indeed just a capitalistic country with an oppressive state.
Any time someone describes something that happened on the fediverse without providing a link, they are misrepresenting what happened 100% of the time.
Hahaha, are you saying that because it was you on the other end of that discussion? I know you love China so much that you are willing to praise their genocide of Uyghur people.
Maybe you could distill the theory for us a bit so we can decipher why “socialism” is producing hundreds of billionaires.
Not to my knowledge, but there’s no way for anyone to know what incident it’s referencing so it could be any conversation they had with anyone, or made up whole cloth. I say this exact thing every time I see someone claim something happened on the fediverse without providing a link 1 2 3, and I haven’t been wrong yet. And that’s not really surprising, why wouldn’t someone provide a link to something that made the other side look bad, unless it didn’t actually play out the way they claim?
For example, when you say that I “praise the genocide of Uyghur people,” that is a lie, and it should be obvious that it’s a lie from the fact that you didn’t provide a link to it.
I’d be happy to have a good faith discussion regarding China’s economic policies and how they relate to socialism. Just not with someone who I already know is going to lie, misrepresent whatever I say, and act in bad faith, as I know you will.
From the position of your acceptance of Uyghur genocide and pretending that China is anywhere near the left, it’s astonishing you are comfortable accusing anyone else of bad faith.
There’s simply no way to have a serious discussion with you regarding anything about China. That’s why you have chosen the lemmy.ml instance, it is a hivemind of like thinkers all sheltered from the truth by fragile admins.
Oh, look at that, you can’t provide a link. Because you’re a liar. And once again my rule is proven true.
Oh, you want links? I can give you links.
Here you are linking to an article saying it isn’t genocide: https://lemmy.world/comment/12211000
Here you are refusing to accept the genocide is happening despite a huge number of links: https://lemmy.world/comment/11959309
And as a bonus here’s some trollish avoidance of admitting that the Tienanmen Square massacre happened: https://lemmy.world/comment/12256833
You do know there’s a search function, right?
None of those links show me “praising” a genocide. That remains a bold faced, blatant lie.
Tbh, I find that this sort of casual lying is so common in spaces like .world that nobody even seems to care. Maybe it’s a neurotypical thing, where you’re allowed to tell lies so long as you’re lying about the out group. Frankly, when people don’t even acknowledge such things as lies, I have to wonder if they’re even capable of being truthful or acting in good faith.
Those “huge number of sources” I actually went through point by point. Here’s a book from the 1930’s called 100 Authors Against Einstein which presents “a huge number of sources” claiming that Einstein’s findings regarding General Relativity were wrong. Every one of them is wrong.
Also, I’m amazed that you’d link that last one as if it makes me look bad. The person was caught in saying something wrong so they abruptly pivoted to completely unrelated topics in the most textbook example of Whataboutism that I’ve ever seen in my life, so obviously I refused to indulge them.
Still waiting on a link for your original claim btw.
Also btw I think your first link is to the wrong comment.
I don’t feel like wandering your comment history looking for what you’ve had to say about China’s treatment of Uyghurs. Unless you’re not the same Objection I saw posting anime cartoons?
That’s me.
I find it pretty convenient how you can so distinctly remember me praising something, but you can’t remember anything else about that conversation that would allow you to find it in the search function. Are you sure we can rely on your memory? Because I don’t remember ever saying that and I’m pretty sure I would.
Was this the same conversation where you were praising the Holocaust? I can’t provide any evidence that that happened because I don’t feel like wandering through your comment history, but I have a vague memory of you saying something like that, so I guess if vague memories are the standard of evidence we’re relying on, you’re looking pretty bad too.
That’s right! OBJECTION! is just a genocide denialist, like Holocaust denialists! Much better.
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Genocide now has a very specific definition and there’s no need to put “Uyghur genocide” in quotes like you’re trying to deny it’s really a genocide. It absolutely is.
Here’s the definition, all it takes is for any ONE of these criteria to be met for it to be considered a genocide:
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/genocide-conv-1948/article-2
"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
So break this down for China’s treatment of the Uyghur:
a) No. Not in, say, the same way Israel is executing Palestinians.
b) Absolutely. Forced imprisonment? Slave labor? Unquestionable.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights
The Chinese government has imprisoned more than one million people since 2017 and subjected those not detained to intense surveillance, religious restrictions, forced labor, and forced sterilizations.
The United States determined that China’s actions constitute genocide, while a UN report said they could amount to crimes against humanity.
c) Yes, see above link.
d) Yes, forced sterilizations.
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-birthrate-sterilization-genocide
“In recent months, several Uyghur survivors have testified that the camps themselves have become sites of sterilization by injection, forced IUD implantation, and forced abortion.”
e) Also yes.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-48825090
“China is deliberately separating Muslim children from their families, faith and language in its far western region of Xinjiang, according to new research.”
So when you have 5 criteria for genocide, ANY of which are enough to qualify, and China’s treatment of the Uyghur hits 4/5? Yeah, that’s a genocide.
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Im making this reply to help you better respond to people, not to start a fight:
Hey, just a heads up, your cfr link directly cites Adrian zenz, the person many people don’t trust to make even handed statements about China, directly twice.
The vox link sources statements from him several times. I tried to just quickly parse what was what but I came up with seven different statements.
The bbc article seems to reference zenz in six different claims.
I wasn’t able to give these articles a deep read, or check if the other sources also pull from that particular controversial figure or his organizations.
I’ll have you know that America did some bad stuff so that justifies literally any amount of authoritarianism from China.
America doing ‘bad stuff’ is a comical understatement. Sure, the genocide of native Americans and chattel slavery is “bad”, but it is probably worse than general authoritarian actions. You seem to have them the other way around, or at least imply that.
Both suck. Both have superiority complexes. I have to deal with American superiority complexes, so that paints me as “pro China”.
I’m simply pro unity.
You seem to grasp and miss the point at the same time.
When tankies are faced with terrible shit their government is currently doing, they bring up terrible stuff America did a hundred years ago as if that somehow justifies it. Yes, both things bad, but the second thing has zero bearing in relation to an article about China literally disappearing dissidents.
Do you actually realize how little sense this makes?Just realized that the previous comment was sarcastic, I’m taking everything backThey were being sarcastic and facetious. Tankies use a similar argument everytime somebody speaks ill of China.
Examples:
“TikTok is a military campaign proven to spy on messages and photos and send massive amounts of data to Chinese headquarters.”
“OH OKAY but its fine when FaceBook and Google hand over info to the USA, is that it?”
“Chinese hostile takeovers of Hong Kong, Tibet, and soon potential war with Taiwan and Philippines is worrying. World War 3 could be upon us.”
“BuT nAtO anD IsrAeL eXiST!”
My favorite is how they claim that PRC doesn’t invade anyone, ignorant of their attempts in Korea (Korean War) and Vietnam (after the Americans left).
And their success in Tibet.
Tell it to hexbear and .ml
Yes.
Sorry, I read it too quickly and didn’t notice that it was sarcasm.
Reminds me of the Clinton Death List, where anyone tangential to Bill and Hilary who had a bad turn was allegedly victimized to cover up an even more insidious crime.