Meanwhile…
looks at old Thinkpad and raspi
I have been an IT professional since 1995. Never have I ever had a personal PC that wasn’t either a refurbished laptop or some sort of Frankenstein abomination that I put together from whatever was on sale and upcycled parts.
I have been an IT professional since 1995. Never have I ever had a personal PC that wasn’t either a refurbished laptop or some sort of Frankenstein abomination that I pit together from whatever was on sale and upcycled parts.
I’ve been in the game for about the same amount of time. I stopped doing that about 15 years ago when I saw that the electricity I was paying on older gear was equaling or exceeding the cost of buying newer, faster, and lower power consumption hardware.
Power costs is a poor tax in the same way skipping the dentist and getting a root canal later is.
Also in the process of power efficiency-izing my lab. It just wasn’t a feasible option before, I didn’t have the means. I just paid interest via electricity.
Do we need to update Sam Vimes ‘Boots’ Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness to Sam Vimes **‘Compute’ ** Theory of Socio-Economic Unfairness?
Curiously, judging by my recent upgrade parts search, the peak of the capability-to-power-used curve on PCs (at least gaming ones) seems to have peaked about a decade ago.
Signed, a fellow Old Sea Dog Of Tech who has also gone through the same change over a decade ago
You can get old servers on eBay for surprisingly little money, like this PowerEdge T410 for $200. Add some drives, install TrueNAS SCALE and you’ve got a good home server platform.
Also a space heater for the winter and some white noise so you can sleep better!
Isn’t that a bit like buying an old truck instead of a year old Miata?
Afaik those CPUs use so much juice when idling … sure, you dont get all them lanes or ECC, but a PC at the same price with a few year old CPU outclasses that CPU by a lot & at a fraction of the running cost (also quietly).
Just something to keep in mind as an alternative, especially when you don’t intend to fill all the pcie bussy (several users with several intensive tasks that benefit from wider bus to RAM & PCI even with a slow CPU).
Ok, and you miss out on some fancy admin stuff, but … it’s just for home use …Yeah server hardware isn’t the most efficient if you want to save power. It’s probably better to get a NUC or something.
With that said my old Dell PowerEdge R730 only uses around 84 watt (running around 5 VMs that are doing pretty much nothing) The server runs Proxmox and has 128 GB of ram, two Xeon E5-2667 v4 CPUs, 4 old used 1 TB HDDs I bought for cheap, and 4 old used 128 GB SATA SSDs I also bought for cheap (all storage is 2,5 drives).
All I had to do was change a few BIOS settings to prioritize efficiency over performance. 84 watts is obviously still not great but it’s not that bad.
Sounds nice, but yes, uses quite a bit of power.
I should measure mine - I have a Ryzen 5900 (24t, 64MB … some 20k cinebench score) as the main, and a Core 12700 (16+4t, 12MB).
(And Intel gen 7 and 2 at my patents. All of them proxmoxed.)Never ever managed to bottleneck anything on them, not really, but got them super cheap used.
Buying anything server/enterprise that powerful would cost me a lot of moneys. And prob have two CPUs which doubles a lot of power hungry bits.
The only reason that I have measured my server is that it has that feature built into the iDRAC. I have been thinking of buying an external power meter for years but have never bothered to do that.
Luckily I got my server for free from work. It was part of an old SAN so it came with 4 dual 16 Gbit fiber channel cards and 2 dual 10 gigabit ethernet cards. Before I took those out of the server it consumed around 150 watts at idle which is crazy.
I always recommend buying enterprise grade hardware for this type of thing, for two reasons:
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Consumer-grade hardware is just that - it’s not built for long-term, constant workloads (that is, server workloads). It’s not built for redundancy. The Dell PowerEdge has hotswappable drive bays, a hardware RAID controller, dual CPU sockets, 8 RAM slots, dual built-in NICs, the iDrac interface, and redundant hot-swappable PSUs. It’s designed to be on all the time, reliably, and can be remotely managed.
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For a lot of people who are interested in this, a homelab is a path into a technology career. Working with enterprise hardware is better experience.
Consumer CPUs won’t perform server tasks like server CPUs. If you want to run a server, you want hardware that’s built for server workloads - stability, reliability, redundancy.
So I guess yes, it is like buying an old truck? Because you want to do work, not go fast.
Is this mythology? :P
Server stuff is unusual and mysterious, rare, and expensive - I get the allure.I like your second point (tho wouldn’t say a lot, most of us just want services at home + ProxMox or even Linux in general isn’t the most common hypervisor to learn for getting a job in like mid-sized companies), but for the rest - PC can take loads just as well as enterprise/server, this isn’t the 90s or early 2000s when you eg got shitty capacitors on even the best consumer mobos. Your average second gen Core PC could run non-stop since it’s birth to today.
The exception are hard drives, which homelabbers buy enterprise anyways.
BTW - who has their home lab on full load all the time (not sarcasm, actually asking for usecases)?The rest is just additional equipment one might need or might not. A second CPU slot is irrelevant when buying old servers, ram slots need to be filled to even take advantage of the extra lanes of server CPUs and even then older tech might still be slower than dual channel ddr5, drive bays are cheap to buy … but if you want nicely looking hot-swappable PSU then you need a server/workstation case.
Server vs consumer CPUs mostly differ in how well they can parallelize tasks, mostly by having more cores and more lanes. But if a modern CPU core outclases older server CPU cores like 10:1 that logic just doesn’t add up anytime. Both do the same work.
Imho old servers aren’t super cheap but are priced accordingly.
I think this whole debate consumer vs enterprise hardware (except hard drives ofc) can be summed in a proxy question of - do homelabbers need registered ECC RAM?
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I have a ThinkServer with a similar Xeon, running proxmox -> Debian, so I was looking like “huh, interesting” until I saw the internals.
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck all that. Damn it Dell, quit your weird bullshit. It’s just a motherboard, cpu, cooler, and ram. Slap in intake and exhaust fans. Figure it the fuck out.
E: and it better have a goddamn standard psu, too. Fuck yourself, Dell. I’ve seen your shit.
The one saving grace is that their one-off custom damn shit always feels well designed, and they move a lotta units (which helps with repairs when everything is GD custom). Dunno if that’s changed in recent years.
With that said I avoid them for personal use usually for the same reason, why have a desktop if you don’t get the benefit of parts compatibility?!
Hmm, I don’t have direct experience with ThinkServers, but what I see on eBay looks like standard ATX hardware… which is not really what you want in a server.
The Dell motherboard has dual CPU sockets and 8 RAM slots. The PSUs are not the common ATX desktop format because there are 2 of them and they are hot swappable. This is basically a rack server repacked into a desktop tower case, not an ATX desktop with a server CPU socket.
Hey, are you me?
Hey! What Thinkpad do you use?
I use a W520.
Are you supposed to only have one thinkpad and one thinkcentre??
I would just a thinkpad running tent-style
E580. Not even a “real” Thinkpad.
Is it really a midlife crisis when you’re just buying the toys you ways wanted because you can finally afford it?
I built a ridiculous computer with RGB everything a few months back… It’s dumb as hell but I always wanted one and at this point why not?
Sorta. But I think the problematic part of a midlife crisis is the irresponsible reckless behavior (say unaccounted for big expenses) that affect the people around you. If you’re not doing that then pop off, have fun, life is short!!
I hate this meme and yes absolutely
It’s not a midlife crisis!
I actually desperately need this, my current server’s just not specced right for the 2 dozen VM’s I still want to add.VM’s I still
So each VM has their own iStill? That’s a new $2ooo gadget from apple?
Not sure I’m parsing the apostrophe correctly. They’re still not for pluralization EVER, right?
when pluralizing an acronym you add an apostroph
Mid-life crisis? I’m in my mid-20s!
Who’s gonna tell him?
That’s not mid-life, that’s entire-life.
I have 4 DL360s with 96GB RAM each to run a K8s cluster with a handful of containers
I don’t know who needs to hear this, but your internal use only web-app for syncing your garage door with your media sever don’t need all that
YOU DONT KNOW ME
Lies
Yea! He just needs a single dual proc server with 1TB of RAM like mine instead!
😂 are you consuming market data for the entirety of North America?
I have 4 DL360s with 96GB RAM each to run a K8s cluster with a handful of containers
If someone is paying you to host those and covering your costs, go wild! However, as a hobby you may be spending $925/year or more for electricity to run those in the Midwest. $1,387 if you’re living in Boston, $1,850 if you’re living in California.
In one year you may have been able to buy more new power efficient hardware from just what you’re spending on juice.
I am sure there are people who spend more than that in a year on their own hobbies.
My point is, you can possibly spend the same money and get better hardware that isn’t so power hungry and have a better experience with your hobby.
Curious how you calculated that? What system load is it based on? Idle? Max?
Curious how you calculated that? What system load is it based on? Idle? Max?
Very much an estimate because OP didn’t mention what generation DL360 they had, how many CPUs, drives, etc. So I assumed 120W continuous 24/7/365 consumption which is pretty low. Assuming 22 cents per KWh for midwest, 33 cents/KWh for Boston and 44 cents/KWh for California.
OP is likely drawing much more than my estimate.
Seems realistic. Thanks for the details.
Fuck it, we ball
Why not both? My homelab supports car related activities.
Probably why I don’t have the Porsche though.
I went the route of modest homelab with some mini PCs/Pis/NAS, and a decidedly not modest sim racing rig.
I like to say that for my midlife crisis I bought all the cars. I’m very funny.
makes same sound
Gento fans go brrrrr
Por qué no los dos?
Opportunity cost
I recently purchased a blade enclosure.
I might be in this meme.
And how many of those could you buy for the money one of these cars costs? You might be in this meme, and this meme may compare things that fulfil the same purpose (crisis-wise) but that price difference is one not to be dismissed.
The image I chose for this meme was from a store listing where this was going for 100k
Lots of server/computer hardware can get really up there in price. Just a single Nvidia H100 (The gold standard GPU for AI training) is currently going for ~60k
Wow. I did not expect that. Nor people to buy that stuff for private use.
The more you’re willing to do yourself, the cheaper the car gets.
It’s basically a hobby meant for sysadmins and they don’t even realize it!
I watched my father go this way and I shan’t let it happen to me! I’ve bought a motorcycle like a normal fat, middle-aged man.
Me who finds really cheap eBay hardware:
deleted by creator
A super fast car is a toy, fast electronics are useful tools.
Sure, but from some point up enterprise-class tech stops making sense for home use.
A super fast car is a tool to make me happier. Not that I’ll ever be able to afford one.
The Miata and the BRZ/GR86 aren’t fast though.
