I have been thinking a lot since the election about what could explain the incredibly high numbers of Americans who seem incapable of critical thinking, or really any kind of high level rational thought or analysis.
Then I stumbled on this post https://old.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/16ires5/lead_exposure_from_shooting_is_a_much_more/
Which essentially explains that “Shooting lead bullets at firing ranges results in elevated BLLs at concentrations that are associated with a variety of adverse health outcome"
I looked at the pubmed abstract in that Reddit post and also this one https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5289032/
Which states, among other things, “Workers exposed to lead often show impaired performance on neurobehavioral test involving attention, processing, speed, visuospatial abilities, working memory and motor function. It has also been suggested that lead can adversely affect general intellectual performance.”
Now, given that there are well in excess of 300 million guns in the United States, is it possible lead exposure at least partially explains how brain dead many Americans seem to be?
This is a genuine question not a troll and id love to read some evidence to the contrary if any is available
Most Americans don’t even own guns. A minority of Americans own lots of guns.
And like 9 out of 10 people who own guns go to the range less than a few times a year.
More than half of gun owners have never gone to a range beyond what might have been part of a state’s pistol permitting process.
Post reads like some violently uninformed person making a lot of… I don’t want to say racist cuz that’s not really right, but similar sentiments about Americans
Y’all are stupid cuz of your guns
Is about as stupid a thought as possible as you’re you’re claiming we are because of shooting guns and the fact that anyone in the comments is taking it seriously shows y’all have the exact same level of critical thinking skills as those you’re insulting
Y’all are stupid cuz of your guns
Yeah, in this case he’s got it completely backwards.
Was the majority of the German voting public lead-poisoned in the 30s? I don’t think lead was even put in gas then. Those Germans almost certainly were not lead poisoned, and they put a monster into power.
I get wanting a good explanation, but in reality, it’s a simple but unsatisfying explanation. It applies to every country and every population in every era. People are fuckin’ stupid. Carlin said it best:
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
I dislike this saying because it’s always been assumed, never proven, that intelligence follows a normal distribution. That is if it can even be mapped to a single, consistent, comparable number.
But your point is valid. Though I’d add that it’s not universally true. Fascists thrive on fear and ignorance. Give people access to a good education, which includes political education, and they are far more resilient to these tactics.
Which is why it’s especially nefarious that conservatives love to undermine, vilify, and defund education.
The German population went through serious economic troubles. Wheelbarrows of cash to buy stuff. Economically troubled people get angry and revolt, and in democratic systems that means firstly voting for the extreme candidates, the ones with a good story. Anger shuts down critical thinking and they don’t think about other consequences of their vote.
That’s how many elections went in a lot of counties in the last few years too.
Right, but that’s where the analogy breaks down “wheelbarrows of cash”. You can try to reference that situation, you can try to talk about desperate people just wanting to lash out but no one is pushing around “wheelbarrows of cash”. Whatever desperate situation people think they are in pales before the reality. The huge difference in severity means they are hardly comparable at all. By pretty much any stat, we should be doing ok: there have been many times we’ve had it worse, so why is this the moment?
This is where the last couple decades of hatred and divisiveness come in. Politicians bringing forth blame, scapegoats, stoking outrage at our problems. The hatred is always there. The violence is always there. Were conditions to a constant state of anger so that’s where too many turn for even a minor downturn
Yeah, I get that saying people are fuckin stupid is dismissive and over simplified in a lot of cases… But it’s also still true and a factor, which adds to all the other factors you’re talking about. Ultimately I think if people were more educated and intelligent, they could overcome a lot of irrationality.
It’s deliberate. The right wing has been gradually whittling down the quality of our education system for more than a generation.
I got curious; looks like leaded fuel was first introduced in the 1920s.
Interesting. Though I can’t say when Germany added it. I believe the 20s was when America started doing it, but according to a podcast I listened to recently, America was the first to start doing it. And also the effects of lead poisoning take decades to manifest.
The vast majority of Americans don’t own/shoot guns. There’s 300 million guns because some people own multiple.
Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/
Also, the British literally voted to have a worse economy. We don’t have a monopoly on headassery.
“you’re brain dead, you’ve got aalmost as much lead as a motherfuckin bullet in ya head.”
I doubt it’s the main cause, widespread cultural phenomena are normally mostly generated by social interactions (words) and reinforcement, and demagogues (or so they often over-claim).
Poison like that will impact a fairly small proportion and takes a long time to impact and spread. Seems unlikey to be anything major. Besides which many more sources of lead poisoning from paint and leaded petrol, and water pipes and stuff - not specifiic to US and not specific to guns.
I built a machine that pics up discharged round from the end of the shooting range. They had to wear so much protective gear to run this machine and were under strict regulations from the government. I had no idea how dangerous shooting ranges were.
I think there’s a much higher chance of slow-poisoning with heavy metals and other chemicals by food then shooting guns. Food quality standards in the US are poor. As well as nutrition wise. Malnutrition has a big effect on people their brain. The brain needs loads of stuff to function properly, not just corn syrup and fats. And with the poor US food safety regulations and poor tap water there’s more poison then nutricions coming into your body.
Then is not than.
Thenk you.
It is absolutely driving me bonkers. I think the two words will collapse into one over the next century if people don’t stop making this mistake. It’s so common and it irks me so!
All good. I appreciated your comment since I’m not a native English speaker. I had to read the comment twice to find the “then”, because my brain was on auto-correct. So I really wanted to thank you, but than my inner clown took over. Happens from time to time. Sorry about that.
So I really wanted to thank you, but than my inner clown took over
Lol
Lol the funny thing is that I literally didn’t even notice the spelling of “thenk” until now!
I appreciate the responses on two levels haha
Curious – what is your native language?
You’re welcome. I’m German. And you probably missed the “than” in my previous comment. Isn’t it fun how our brian works? (I was soo tempted to write “your welcome” 😀)
It’s a known risk, and there are guidelines to lessen or prevent lead exposure at the range, but I’d wager most shooters aren’t aware.
For example:
Use jacketed or lead free bullets and primers.
Wash your face, arms and hands after using the range.
Change your clothes and shoes after using the range.
Wash your range clothes separately from your families.
Do not eat, drink, or smoke on the range.
Take the same precautions after cleaning your guns.
That being said, the folks at largest risk for this kind of exposure would be those who fire guns the most often, so that population would be the canary in the coal mine so to speak.
https://www.quora.com/How-often-do-police-officers-practice-at-ranges
"How often do police officers practice at ranges?
Most departments require re-qualification training once a year.
My department required shooting three times a year, once with our sidearm, once with our 12 gauge shotguns, and once with our AR 15 carbines.
As for my self, I go to the range 8 to 10 times a year. I am usually accompanied by 5 or 6 of my fellow officers. We are not for the fun, we are training by using the state required shooting plans and we add a little extra to it.
Most officers I know only go to range when required for re-qualification. Not because they don’t want to, shooting off a couple hundreds rounds is an expensive proposition."
Yeah… Might be a reason cops seem dumber than average, and they don’t hire the brightest to begin with.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836
Thanks for being the first person in this thread to actually post some useful tips to get the lead out, so to speak.
haven’t shot a gun in at least 20 years and I’m retarded as shit. so…
Being self aware enough to think that probably means you’re not all that bad.
The damage has been done, probably 😂
I’m sure this will get rained with downvotes at some point but just know you gave me a good chuckle man, and I greatly needed it. Have a great night!
I only downvoted you for saying you’ll be downvoted. Didn’t want to disappoint you.
I think they meant the other guy for dropping the “retard” line without censoring
Religion is the cause. You are not allowed to think outside the cult. There are a lot of idiot Americans who don’t own guns or are exposed to them, so the lead theory is not valid in that sense.
The dumbest and most religious ones usually own the most weapons though, so it’s a persistent state of mutual amplification.
Is it possible? Yes
Could it at least in part explain some behaviour? Yes.
But the missing question really is how much, and the answer is probably infitessimally small even if Real.
For lead exposure there are far easier and more common ways to get exposed such as lead pipes (which the US has a lot of).
But also you’d have to establish that the underlying problem is brain damage, and that is probably not true and instead reflects cultural bias.
There are many other reasons to explain American culture and behaviour which does not default to brain damage (or at least provable brain damage).
I would look at social and cultural issues first: an extremely weak political system, a poor quality general education system, high levels of religion, poor quality general health care, high levels of inequality including shocking levels of poverty.
The problem with the US is the extremes - if you have money you have the best the world can offer; if you don’t then the state provision is shockingly poor. But alot of the crazies are also rich, and that comes down to the culture and society.
Lead poisoning is the least likely explanation, and is almost wishful thinking to try and explain things as a disease rather than normal human nature.
COVID causes brain damage too. We largely don’t mask anymore like even in doctor’s offices, or worse hospitals. I think COVID has done a large amount of damage in a short time.
The state of Florida has more lead service pipes (water) than any other state in the US. I’ve been saying for years that this could be an actual source or at least partial cause of the phenomenon known as “Floridaman”.
After having been here in Miami for several years I can 1st hand confirm that most of the people here are not intelligent.
Throw in our appalling educational systems and what capacity for rational independent critical thinking was never developed.
We have been told by TV, advertising, media in general, that people are smart, you’re smart, you’re a smart person there Joe and Jane America. But they aren’t. Most can’t distinguish the difference between thinking and feeling, therefore they conflate the two.
It’s not a good look I’ll grant you that. Hey we might be stupid, but at least we’re violent.
The average ACT score in Florida among college-bound seniors is about 18. To be clear, that is only slightly higher than my cat can score by guessing. It’s an astonishing result. They are actually illiterate. And again, that’s the average for the state (nationally it’s around 22), and half of them do worse.
If you’ve ever tried to have a conversation with an average person… well, you can’t. There’s nothing to discuss except sports, since everything else is way too complicated. So now imagine a standard deviation lower.
To be clear, the “Floridaman” thing certainly benefits from the “sunshine state” bullshit, but yeah, the rest of your points are sound. 🤌🏽
I find this comment super compelling, especially in combination with some of the other good points in the comments here. thank you
That’s a very interesting hypothesis. For sure it affects it and there might be other chemicals that get combusted as well. Not sure if the quantity is the same as with leaded gasoline and I’m pretty sure the proportion of Americans that go to shooting ranges on a regular basis is pretty small. Interesting post regardless
This seems like reaching for the most esoteric and niche explanation to a fairly simple phenomenon.
America’s school system sucks, and the anti-authoritarian nature of a culture formed by rejecting monarchy has been coopted to convince people that science and reason are authority figures you ought to fight back against.
The vast majority of Americans aren’t gun owners, and the vast majority of gun owners don’t shoot very often. You haven’t provided evidence for Americans being incapable of critical thinking, but you want evidence for why guns aren’t the source of american stupidity.
This is a very silly post. 😅
Well, I’m sure the exposure from going to the shooting range is a lot smaller than this, but lead poisoning from leaded gasoline apparently had a measurable impact on IQ levels.
I 100 percent agree that the big problem of the educational system, though! It is also interesting how self-fulfilling the adversity to government has been: it has made it so easy for men with bad intentions to tear down an at least functional democracy by promising to “fix” it.
That makes complete sense to me, that’s a widespread systemic exposure; I’d kinda expect usage of leaded gasoline that to have that sort of impact
And yep, it sure is frustrating 🙃
I’m not sure why you think it’s esoteric or niche, there are something like 400 million guns in the US, with 1/3 of Americans directly owning at least one gun and 44% of us households having a gun owner. I think that’s pretty far from “the vast majority” not being gun owners https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx
Moreover, lead exposure is known to cause cognitive impairments. I do agree however that most gun owners don’t shoot very often.
But if you need me to cite evidence that millions of Americans seem incapable of critical thinking you are either trolling or just not paying attention.
Here’s an entire book on the subject in case that helps https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Critical-Thinking-Crisis-Education/dp/1735942200
Finally, I’m not sure how you could construe my question as wanting evidence that it isn’t guns causing the problem, I pretty clearly asked a question, provided some links to explain what I had read that led me to that question, and then welcomed contrary evidence, of which you cited none by the way.
A sample size of 1000 people isnt exactly huge to be fair.
I’d like to clarify- I wasn’t intending to be hostile, though I can see how it came across that way, and I apologize, I did a kind of shitty job of conveying my idea in a way that would connect with you. I think in online spaces it can be really hard to break the habit of making your point in a way that will register with bystanders rather than the person you’re ostensibly actually talking to. I did a great job at expressing my perspective in a way that would validate the confusion I think amercians are likely to experience reading this post (as reflected by the votes), but I did a kinda crap job of actually addressing you, sorry about that. I’ll do my best to be a little effective in communicating what I meant and why I felt that way.
As an American, this feels like a cartoonishly out of touch representation of the issues my country faces (which to be fair, would be entirely understandable if you don’t live here and don’t have any first-hand experience with the US). We have plenty of them (issues, that is), and there’s lots of discussion to be had on the impact of guns on society, and also from where I’m standing it seems like are far more probable explanations for people lacking critical thinking skills than that we all just shoot our rootin’ tootin’ guns all the time over here in yeehaw land, and so we all have lead poisoning from all the bullets we’re shooting’. (Not trying to build a straw man of things you didn’t say, my point is that it feels like an caricature, and not one that aligns with the experience I have actually living here)
To reach past “crappy educational system”, “weaponized anti-authoritarianism and individualism”, and even “lead from drinking water or gasoline”, or any number of other likely causes, to instead land on a caricature of American life feels a bit silly to me. Thats an acute risk associated with an activity most people don’t participate in, and that even the people who do participate in, don’t very often.
The book you linked appears to be about how the American educational system is conceptually flawed and approaches education in a way unlikely to yield meaningful critical thinking skills- a point I think I’d likely agree with it on. But to be fair, a book also isn’t actually a quantitative reflection of poor critical thinking skills. It wouldn’t totally suprise me if America did struggle with critical thinking, there are lots of possible reasons we might- and at the same time, it’s a little frustrating for someone foreign to my country to look from the outside and say “man, I wonder if they’re all dumb cause they have lead poisoning from shooting guns all the time” while providing evidence for the link between shooting and lead exposure (makes complete sense) but no evidence for the premise that we’re dumb; that part is just taken for granted.
It kinda feels like you’re asking if the caricature of us all shooting guns all the time is the reason for the caricaturization of us all being dumb. And in doing so, overlook much more systemic far-reaching explanations for how a nation might end up in a state where critical thinking skills are lacking.
I’m not wading into looking for evidence because the nature of these things is that it takes a looooot of evidence to dispute an idea that can be thrown out with only a little. My mental health is horrible and I don’t really have the energy for that at present 😅 I think lots of other folks have made valuable contributions to the discussion, but I didn’t see anyone speaking to the fact that this feels like it’s borne out of an outsiders perspective based mostly on an imaginary idea of what it’s like to live here.
I don’t expect my expressing that idea to change your mind, but I still think it has value for providing perspective and context to the things you’re considering. If you don’t actually know much about the US first-hand, it might not be apparent that folks in the US are unlikely to see that a realistic source of the problem you’re describing given the actual experience of living here.
All I really hope to add to the conversation is that perspective. Its fine if you don’t see it the same way that I do, to be totally honest sometimes there are instances where being immersed in or “too close” to something impairs your ability to see it clearly. Though I don’t think this is one of those times.
Sorry this is all over the place, I’m pretty spent and didn’t have it in me to edit further for clarity (or try to be succinct, as you can probably tell by the like 30 paragraphs where a couple of more carefully thought out ones might have sufficed.)
Bro started off talking about how Americans are incapable of critical thinking and proceded to write the rest of the post.
The brain follows the same patterns as muscles: use it or lose it. The general population in America is very much not educated at all. So their brains lose the ability to think rapidly.
Smartphones (and the Internet more generally) have led to a major decline in reading books among the American public. I think this plays such a huge role in the absolutely batshit crazy cultural shift we’ve seen.
There’s a whole lot of stupid books to read too but one difference is that at least they’re supposed to be grammatically correct.
People also watched a ton of bad TV instead of reading.
People watch a ton of bad streaming instead of watching tv. The news used to have some standards that clearly don’t exist anymore
The cognitive decline among older populations (50+) is absolutely appalling. It’s safe to say that the average 5th grader has better critical thinking skills than the average septuagenarian.
So… why the latter can vote but not the former is a mystery to me.
The first paragraph I agree with. The last sentence… That is some naivity. People do shit because it’s been done before and that is all they need, they don’t even question it. Have you really not noticed how strong and consistent a factor it is that people don’t like change? It might take 100 years for public perception to align with what you’re saying even if every single study for that 100 years agreed that older adults are severely cognitively compared.
very much not
Ew. 😅
