• Admiral Patrick@dubvee.orgEnglish
    907·
    2 个月前

    Let the hate of the crowd wash over me, but I don’t even like Flatpak, and I’ve got love-hate (mostly hate) relationship with AppImage as well.

    Just give me a system package or a zipped tarball.

    In recent years, have had to just get used to needing to build most projects from source.

      • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.orgEnglish
        173·
        2 个月前

        Just not a fan of container formats in general.

        I say that as a heavy user of Docker, but that’s a different use-case.

          • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.orgEnglish
            5·
            2 个月前

            At least for appimage, it doesn’t create application launchers. And it’s 50/50 whether the icon in the window list works or not.

            I also build a lot of Docker images, and container formats throw a wrench in that if that’s the only way the application/utility is packaged. So I end up building from source.

            • klu9@lemmy.caEnglish
              3·
              2 个月前

              Personally, I use AM. Takes care of that and more.

              It is CLI and I’m GUI by nature, but AM is easy enough for me. Just yesterday I did a simple am -u and got the latest updated versions of qBittorrent, FreeTube, yt-dlp etc. (I.e. the kind of program that system packages are too out of date to work safely or even work at all.)

              There are other options like zap (CLI), Gear Lever (GUI) and just recently I believe the Nitrux distro came out with a complete AppImage software manager. (Checking it out, https://github.com/Nitrux/nx-software-center , it seems it pulls from AppImageHub.com, which unfortunately has largely been forgotten by developers, a lot of software is either out of date, unverifiable or completely absent. AM is much more up-to-date, pulling the latest AppImages mostly from official GitHub repos.)

      • jj4211@lemmy.world
        7·
        2 个月前

        I’d say that complete lack of a single consistent way to manage updates.

        I really don’t feel having to micromanage each piece of software.

        • Samueru_sama@programming.devEnglish
          4·
          2 个月前

          AppImage is meant to be updated using the embedded zsync info the runtime, that is the user should never have to open the app to update it.

          The user needs to have something like AM, appimagelauncher or appimaged that is then able to parse the info and update the appimages using appimageupdatetool

          This method also provides delta updates, meaning it doesn’t download the entire app but only a diff, see this test with CPU-X where it downloaded 2.65 MiB to update the app:

          TLDR: https://github.com/ivan-hc/AM

  • jaybone@lemmy.zipEnglish
    48·
    2 个月前

    Are there enough watermarks on this meme? At least we got reddit covered.

  • 👍Maximum Derek👍@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
    491·
    2 个月前

    A stab at my personal ranking: .deb > appimage > flatpack > curling a shell script

    I can’t help but love a .deb file (even when not via repo), I’ve almost exclusively used Debian and it derivatives since the late 90s. And snap isn’t on the list because it got stored in a loopback device I removed.

    • miguel@fedia.io
      27·
      2 个月前

      I just recently de-snapped yet another ubuntu system. Couldn’t agree more. I use debian standard for all of my stuff, and I agree with your ranking.

    • gigachad@sh.itjust.works
      7·
      2 个月前

      As someone who is confused when he has to deal with a .deb file and always has to google what to do with it - what is the advantage of a .deb over let’s say a shell script?

      • 👍Maximum Derek👍@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
        11·
        2 个月前

        I never fully trust a shell script and usually end up reading any I have to use first, so I know what they do. And after so many years dpkg holds no mysteries for me and Discover will install .debs if I double click while in KDE.

        • everett@lemmy.ml
          6·
          2 个月前

          It’s worth knowing that .deb files can contain setup scripts that get run as root when installed, so you should trust them too.

          • 👍Maximum Derek👍@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
            5·
            2 个月前

            Yeah. They all come with risks, but I psychologically struggle to run shell scripts unless I know what’s in them. And the same brain dysfunction makes my automatically distrust a script that doesn’t set pipefail.

            • everett@lemmy.ml
              4·
              2 个月前

              That definitely makes sense. Also, the scripts in a .deb should be incredibly short and readable, if you choose to check them out.

      • cley_faye@lemmy.world
        8·
        2 个月前

        If made correctly (which is hilariously easy), it’s a clean install and uninstall process, support some level of potential conflict regarding files that are shared with other packages/commands, support dependencies out of the box, and with minimal work can be made easy to update for the user (even automatically updates, depending on the user’s choices) by having an (again, very easy to setup for a dev) repository. With the added value of authenticity checks before updating.

        All this in a standardized way that requires no tinkering, compatibility stuff, etc, because all these checks are built-in.

        Note that some of this probably applies to other system package management solutions, it’s not exclusive to .deb.

      • Monstrosity@lemm.eeEnglish
        5·
        2 个月前

        dpkg -i <nameofpackage.deb>

        Which can be read as: (Debpackage) -install <nameofpackage.deb>

        That’s it!

        Also, if you haven’t already, install tldr (apt install tldr), then you can ‘tldr deb’ (or any other command) to get a few examples of their most used functions.

      • wolfinthewoods@lemmy.mlEnglish
        1·
        2 个月前

        It might be different for other distros, but for me on MX Linux, I just click on the .deb and it opens a shell with a root prompt and installs the file automatically. Easy peasy.

    • someacnt@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      3·
      2 个月前

      Am I the only one who struggled extensively with .deb file with out-of-date dependencies? It seems the software dev needs to update the .deb file frequently, which they never do.

  • unknown1234_5@kbin.earth
    31·
    2 个月前

    my issue with snaps is honestly just that they are controlled too much by just one entity (canonical) and there is no reason for them to exist because flatpak already does everything they do.

  • procapra@lemm.ee
    313·
    2 个月前

    If flatpak didn’t make me put the entirety of KDE onto my system (thats an exaggeration but you know what I mean) I’d gladly crown it king of the package managers.

    • rtxn@lemmy.worldM
      19·
      2 个月前

      I just want to point out the dependencies of Konsole (arguably a small and simple application in concept): glibc gcc-libs icu kbookmarks kcolorscheme kconfig kconfigwidgets kcoreaddons kcrash kdbusaddons kglobalaccel kguiaddons ki18n kiconthemes kio knewstuff knotifications knotifyconfig kparts kpty kservice ktextwidgets kwidgetsaddons kwindowsystem kxmlgui qt6-5compat qt6-base qt6-multimedia sh.

    • OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml
      15·
      2 个月前

      Psst … the first KDE app you installed via your package manager also put “the entirety of KDE” onto your system.

      • CarrotsHaveEars@lemmy.ml
        32·
        2 个月前

        Indeed. As much of how loved and popular KDE is, fuck it. I use the glorious XFCE. XFCE is beautiful too. Fuck, I’m not the maniac who would waste 2GB just for my DE to look beautiful.

      • thepreciousboar@lemm.ee
        1·
        1 个月前

        At least if you install other apps you already have KDE. If you install another Flatpak, it’s likely this will need another version of the KDE runtime, so it’s 2.5 more GB for a 450kB application.

    • LeFantome@programming.dev
      3·
      2 个月前

      Flatpak does not install KDE by default. It is only required if you install a KDE app. You can hardly blame it if you do that.

  • MoonlightFox@lemmy.world
    314·
    2 个月前

    I have really started to like AppImage. You just download a single file make it executable and it just works.

    I use Cursor for coding, and it has an appimage that replaces itself when it updates.

    • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
      491·
      2 个月前

      That’s cool and all but it would be even cooler if you could just install and keep it updated through your package manager

        • bdonvr@thelemmy.club
          11·
          2 个月前

          That’s cool.

          It would still be even cooler if the app makers just packaged them for distros. Or even just Flatpak.

          But that’s a cool project I’ll keep it in mind for my next go with an immutable distro

          • Samueru_sama@programming.devEnglish
            41·
            2 个月前

            Or even just Flatpak.

            AM was started because flatpak sucks.

            • With flatpak devs can’t agree to use a common runtime, so the user ends up with a bunch of different runtimes and even EOL versions of the same runtime, making the storage usage 5x more than the appimage equivalent and this is much worse if you use nvidia which flatpak will download the entire nvidia driver again.

            • flatpak could not bother to fix the hardcoded ~/.var directory, something that AM fixes by simply bind mounting the existing application config/data files to their respective places when sandboxing which yes it is able to sandbox appimages with aisap (bubblewrap).

            • flatpak threw the mess of handling conflicting applications to the user, so you have to type nonsense like flatpak run io.github.ungoogled_software.ungoogled_chromium, AM just puts the app to PATH like everyone else does, even snap doesn’t have this issue.

            • Colloidal@programming.devEnglish
              2·
              2 个月前

              Having experienced Flatpak bloat and seeing your posts here, I might just have been converted. The Flatpak integration on my distro is neat though. But I already use Aptitude for most of my package management needs, so I guess adding AM to my toolbox doesn’t seem too bad.

          • klu9@lemmy.caEnglish
            3·
            2 个月前

            I do wish something like AM’s functions was built into an all-in-one package manager for my distro. The closest I found was bauh which handles “AppImage, Debian and Arch Linux packages (including AUR), Flatpak, Snap and Web applications”. Which seems like an all-in-one solution.

            But the problem with bauh (that last time I tried it) is that it accesses only a small number of (often very out-of-date) AppImages from the largely moribund AppImageHub.com, unlike AM, which pulls in the latest releases from loads of GitHub repos, and adds more on a frequent basis or request.

    • Psychadelligoat@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      8·
      2 个月前

      Some apps are a bitch and a half for some reason, other apps just work

      Make a .desktop file, slap it in ./local/share/imdrawingafuckingblank and boom, it’s integrated into your shell menu like any other app

      The Nexus Mod App and Foundry VTT work flawlessly and it’s so nice

      • MoonlightFox@lemmy.world
        6·
        2 个月前

        As a somewhat Linux noob I just made a folder called ~/Apps and launch them through terminal. Not ideal, but I don’t care enough to fix it.

        Your suggestion makes me kinda want to fix it though. Doesn’t seem like to much work

        • Monstrosity@lemm.eeEnglish
          10·
          2 个月前

          Change ~/Apps to ~/bin or ~/.bin & you are doing it like a seasoned pro.

          Completely ideal, actually.

        • Fisch@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
          1·
          2 个月前

          I’ve used Linux for years and I also have a ~/Applications folder where I put AppImages, applications cloned with git and stuff like that in. E.g. I have the last Yuzu AppImage in there, since it got taken down, but I also made a .desktop file for it, so I can launch it through the application menu. Btw, you should be able to just double click AppImages in your file explorer to open them.

            • Fisch@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
              1·
              2 个月前

              Maybe I should install one of these but I would have expected Fedora to come with something like this preinstalled tbh

              • Samueru_sama@programming.devEnglish
                1·
                2 个月前

                but I would have expected Fedora to come with something like this preinstalled tbh

                Fedora is just plagued with poor decisions, and that’s expected, it is the testing ground of redhat and not something that regular users should be using, they even go as far as repacking existing flatpaks just because and then break them.

                A while back they pulled this nonsense that not even upstream approves of: https://gitlab.com/gnuwget/wget2/-/issues/661

                iirc fedora also enabled wayland by default on gnome in 2016 when pretty much nothing worked.

                Rhino linux lets you install AM thru its GUI installer btw.

  • Monstrosity@lemm.eeEnglish
    26·
    2 个月前

    I tried a snap package on my pop-os system once & it poo’ed folders all over my system, then didn’t actually uninstall when I uninstalled it.

    No thank you.

  • danhab99@programming.dev
    272·
    2 个月前

    Nix is just across the street sipping tea because it understands what it is and is at peace with the chaotic world around it.

    • stebator@lemmy.world
      5·
      2 个月前

      I use NixOS and Flatpak (Nix-Flatpak) to install software that is not available in Nixpkgs. Unlike Arch’s AUR, Nixpkgs has fewer popular packages. However, Nixpkgs beats AUR in terms of quantity because many Nixpkgs packages are redundant.

  • Abnorc@lemm.ee
    23·
    2 个月前

    It’s not about the package management method that we use. It’s about the friends and enemies we made along the way (while arguing about package management.)

  • cley_faye@lemmy.world
    211·
    2 个月前

    A rusty bucket riddled with holes and the stick part of a shovel is better than snap for running software.

  • srestegosaurio@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    151·
    2 个月前

    Flatpak and SystemD Portable services are actually pretty good.

    That’s the direction I see Linux going. I personally use NixOS because I am sad.

  • LeFantome@programming.dev
    12·
    2 个月前

    Tar is not a package manager, it is just a packaging format. AppImage has the same problem.

    Flatpak is a bit of a crappy package manager but at least it is one. And, due to its use of container technology, it allows the same packages to run on any Linux kernel (any Linux distro). That is pretty useful.

    Of the other package managers, apk 3 is my favourite but the only distro that uses it is Chimera Linux. Pacman is good. dnf / RPM is ok. apt / deb is in last place for me. The recent Ubuntu 25.04 launch snafu illustrates some of the problems with apt. The first Linus Tech Tips Linux challenge really highlighted the dangers of apt.

    I only used snap briefly but instantly hated it. Fstab was a mess. It was slow. It was proprietary. I fled before I could form an educated opinion.

    • Samueru_sama@programming.devEnglish
      2·
      2 个月前

      it allows the same packages to run on any Linux kernel (any Linux distro). That is pretty useful.

      flatpak itself depends on namespaces, so saying that it works on any kernel is quite a stretch.

      Can flatpak do this? This is a GIMP3 appimage running on ubuntu 10.04 without any container:

      The kernel is so old that even the appimage runtime itself complains of missing functions and has to fallback to a workaround.

      UPDATE: flatpak can’t work because bubblewrap itself can’t:

      PR_SET_NO_NEW_PRIVS is only available since kernel 3.5

        • Samueru_sama@programming.devEnglish
          3·
          2 个月前

          I’m not, it’s a vm that I use to test.

          There is quite a lot of systems still stuck on kernel 2.6 that can’t be updated, so it is always nice to make sure what I do can work on such.

  • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
    11·
    2 个月前

    That’s because we are…

    If .y Firefox will once again be updated without asking me and then refusing to open any page without a restart I’ll fucking lose it

    • Sonotsugipaa@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      8·
      2 个月前

      Wait hold on wait, does that bullshit have something with Firefox being distributed through Snap?

      If it does, I’m going to sn… also fucking lose it

      • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
        5·
        2 个月前

        Yeah, it’s snap

        Always updating without letting you know, without asking and it’s ALWAYS at the most inconvenient time

          • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
            1·
            1 个月前

            It basically IS the cause as it’s the system doing the updates without asking. But snap has other issues too. For one, it’s the slowest installer in recorded human history, it takes literally ten times longer on snap to install anything. Why? Beats me, in theory it ought to be faster as it shouldn’t have to resolve dependencies but here we are. Try installing anything with snap, it takes forever.

            Then, snap is closed source eon the server side, so fuck all of that, that’s already 200% of reasons not to use it ever. I don’t trust closed source software anymore

            • Sonotsugipaa@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
              1·
              1 个月前

              By “problem” I meant having to close Firefox before further browsing, not automated updates - I don’t know if I could stand daily-driving a system with Snap updating my stuff while I’m trying to use it tbh, that’s one of the main reasons I left Windows behind.

              Your first comment gave me the impression that Firefox required a restart because it’s distributed officially through Snaps or something, idk 27 days have passed since then

              • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
                2·
                28 天前

                The required FF restart after updating is indeed an FF thing, but in combination with snap just updating without asking is extremely annoying.

      • mogoh@lemmy.ml
        4·
        2 个月前

        I have bad news for you …

        (TBH I am not sure, but as I remember, this problem was specifically a snap problem.)