Some English used to use words derived from nippon as well but they mostly dropped out of the language not too long after WWII, prob bc nip is an old slur for Japanese people. There’s an ee cummings poem that refers to a piece of “nipponized steel”.
Son of a gun, cool! Do you happen to know if it was a transliterative swap (I’m not sure if that’s what it could be called), where Nippon and Nihon actually sound similar enough if your native language is Japanese?
I’m not entirely sure about how the pronunciations developed. I know that in modern Japanese there are only certain ways syllables can change their sound. Japan uses a syllabary rather than an alphabet, so for example they can only say the sounds bu and ra, but never “bra” because they don’t have a standalone “b”. Their syllables get modified in predictable ways, like ka can change to ga, going from a voiceless to voiced velar stop. In much the same way, the ho syllable can become po.
I don’t know much about the history of when nippon became nihon, but the article you linked has a short section on it
Japanese 日 and 本 were historically pronounced niti and pon, respectively. In compounds, however, final voiceless stops (i.e. p, t, k) of the first word were unreleased in Middle Chinese, and the pronunciation of 日本 was thus Nippon or Jippon (with the adjacent consonants assimilating).
Historical sound change in Japanese has led to the modern pronunciations of the individual characters as nichi and hon. The pronunciation Nihon originated, possibly in the Kantō region, as a reintroduction of this independent pronunciation of 本 into the compound. This must have taken place during the Edo period, after another sound change occurred which would have resulted in this form becoming Niwon and later Nion.
Dunno, as a German, I’d find it ahistorical if everybody was using “Deutschland” … the nation-state as an idea, and a unified nation state, are relatively young. Before that, what we call Deutschland today was a mess. It’s no surprise that romance languages use some or another variation of “Allemagne” … the german dialect spoken around the southwestern border is still called “Allemannisch” even in Germany, same with “Saxon” and the variations “Saksa” to the east …
I kinda prefer it the way it is in this case, honestly …
I’m annoyed by the inverse. I speak English, why shouldn’t I use English words? I use English words for everything else in life. Does every other country say “United States of America”?
“Because that’s what I call it and so should every other language!”
And honestly, some of them do just translate (more or less). Like España vs Spain, pretty much any Spanish word that starts with es(consonant) drops the leading e when translated to English (estado, estudiante, and escuela for state, student, and school). We also don’t have the same o/a suffices. So that leaves spañ, except I don’t think any Spanish word ends with ñ (it makes a “ny” sound to bridge with the next letter, for those who don’t know) and Spain comes pretty darn close.
Not too mention that pronunciations and even alphabets are bound to change. Just how much do you want to stay authentic? Because if I start talking about عُمان (Google says that means Oman in Arabic, and looks about right from what I remember seeing on license plates there) I’m going to lose a lot of people.
Asked my half-Japanese wife how to say “Japan” in Japanese. First she said “Japan”, then “Nippon” pronounced “Nihon” (silent P), then “Nippongo” (silent P), or something I can’t type exactly. She also wrote down “Wakarami” with a note “I don’t know”. She was born and bred in the Philippines, so there’s that twist.
Now I’m totally confused, fuck it, Japan it is.
So yeah, how authentic do you want to be?! Bitching about such things is a sign I can’t take one seriously.
I’m not insensitive. Lady at Lowe’s saw my Ukraine patch and said, “Slava Ukraini!” I said it back, but came on here to ask for proper pronunciation.
I am forever annoyed that every language has the audacity to rename other countries to something that is not their name.
Germany? It’s called Deutschland
Spain? España.
Russia? Rossiya.
It’s everywhere and it’s weird.
Because no one can say Magyarország, and it’s easier to make fun of being Hungary for Turkey.
Oman, Iran, with Chad, to Chile bc I was Hungary for Turkey 😋
The Netherlands, but in English the language is called Dutch.
But I prefer when it happens to cities. Aix-la-Chapelle or Aachen. Liège or Luik or Lüttich. Ghent or Gand or Gent.
Japan? AnimeLand
I learned not that long ago the Japanese refer to Japan as Nippon, and that stuck with me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Japan
They usually say Nihon instead of Nippon.
Some English used to use words derived from nippon as well but they mostly dropped out of the language not too long after WWII, prob bc nip is an old slur for Japanese people. There’s an ee cummings poem that refers to a piece of “nipponized steel”.
https://allpoetry.com/poem/13587560-plato-told-by-e.e.-cummings
Son of a gun, cool! Do you happen to know if it was a transliterative swap (I’m not sure if that’s what it could be called), where Nippon and Nihon actually sound similar enough if your native language is Japanese?
I’m not entirely sure about how the pronunciations developed. I know that in modern Japanese there are only certain ways syllables can change their sound. Japan uses a syllabary rather than an alphabet, so for example they can only say the sounds bu and ra, but never “bra” because they don’t have a standalone “b”. Their syllables get modified in predictable ways, like ka can change to ga, going from a voiceless to voiced velar stop. In much the same way, the ho syllable can become po.
I don’t know much about the history of when nippon became nihon, but the article you linked has a short section on it
Dunno, as a German, I’d find it ahistorical if everybody was using “Deutschland” … the nation-state as an idea, and a unified nation state, are relatively young. Before that, what we call Deutschland today was a mess. It’s no surprise that romance languages use some or another variation of “Allemagne” … the german dialect spoken around the southwestern border is still called “Allemannisch” even in Germany, same with “Saxon” and the variations “Saksa” to the east …
I kinda prefer it the way it is in this case, honestly …
Russia == Rossiya doesn’t belong in that list.
Spain and españa are also just cognates
I’m annoyed by the inverse. I speak English, why shouldn’t I use English words? I use English words for everything else in life. Does every other country say “United States of America”?
“Because that’s what I call it and so should every other language!”
See how that sounds?
And honestly, some of them do just translate (more or less). Like España vs Spain, pretty much any Spanish word that starts with es(consonant) drops the leading e when translated to English (estado, estudiante, and escuela for state, student, and school). We also don’t have the same o/a suffices. So that leaves spañ, except I don’t think any Spanish word ends with ñ (it makes a “ny” sound to bridge with the next letter, for those who don’t know) and Spain comes pretty darn close.
Not too mention that pronunciations and even alphabets are bound to change. Just how much do you want to stay authentic? Because if I start talking about عُمان (Google says that means Oman in Arabic, and looks about right from what I remember seeing on license plates there) I’m going to lose a lot of people.
Asked my half-Japanese wife how to say “Japan” in Japanese. First she said “Japan”, then “Nippon” pronounced “Nihon” (silent P), then “Nippongo” (silent P), or something I can’t type exactly. She also wrote down “Wakarami” with a note “I don’t know”. She was born and bred in the Philippines, so there’s that twist.
Now I’m totally confused, fuck it, Japan it is.
So yeah, how authentic do you want to be?! Bitching about such things is a sign I can’t take one seriously.
I’m not insensitive. Lady at Lowe’s saw my Ukraine patch and said, “Slava Ukraini!” I said it back, but came on here to ask for proper pronunciation.
And Turkey is fucking Turkey. Fuck the haters.
Im happy with it. Better than 中国 or .مصر No idea how to read nor how to speak it out.
A transliteration would be fine, eg Nihon, Zhongguo
Is that what my wife was trying to say?
https://old.lemmy.world/comment/20033856
Fuck it. Japan it is.
And while we’re at it, why do languages have the audacity to use ANY words different from other languages!
See how this sounds?