Obviously, the internet has always been a toxic place, (the phrase “flame war” has been around for decades,) but it seems to have gotten so much worse over the last few years. I used to think decentralization of the internet would fix the worst of it, but Lemmy seems to have gotten worse alongside the rest of internet culture, proving me wrong. How do we fix/improve this culture of toxicity?
How do we fix/improve this culture of toxicity?
We don’t because:
- it’s a wider issue than ‘the Internet’. Haven’t you noticed how even politics in general, which was supposed to be the epitome of our democratic societies, has morphed into an hate-filled shit show at best, when it’s not effing openly celebrating murders and assassinations of people we don’t like?
- we’re part of the issue. It’s not a ‘them’ vs ‘us’. It’s us. And most of us, no matter what we believe in, are acting like morons, at best.
but Lemmy seems to have gotten worse alongside the rest of internet culture, proving me wrong.
Lemmy has not “gotten worse” in my opinion. It was worse to begin with and when I arrived a few years ago, the first thing I had to urgently learn is how to filter out what I call its ‘noise’: that constant (and self-celebrating) hatred for ‘the other camp’, the hatred for those who dare not think like ‘us’ (I certainly don’t put myself in that group). I then moved from Lemmy to Piefed, mostly because back then at least it offered me simpler/more efficient ways to filter out that noise.
How do we fix/improve this culture of toxicity?
Like mentioned in other comments, the only way is through changing (civil) society itself. Aka through education.
As long as our respective public educative systems (I’m from France, but I know it’s as shitty in the USA if not worse) are allowed to not do their job of actually educating and teaching kids some common values and principles (next to some actual knowledge and know-how), toxicity will thrive.
It thrives because it has been normalized and because those who benefit from it are being regarded as role models. But it’s even worse than that: just publicly discussing this issue and its causes would expose anyone to being… punished by an angry toxic crowd of people that don’t want to hear they’re being toxic (or that their ‘ideology’ they want so hard to believe in have morphed them into assholes). That is a huge loss for any freedom respecting society, and a huge win for those benefiting from that hate/toxicity.
edit: clarifications.
2 reminded me of a saying. You’re not stuck in traffic, you ARE traffic.
and sometimes you have no choice but to submit. and that’s OK
it’s also not your fault if a drunk driver or similar crashes into you and causes a traffic jam… it’s the other person’s fault.
way too many toxic folks on lemmy are apologizing for the drunk driver and blaming the victim constantly. especially when they identify with the drunk driver or start thinking ‘he had no choice!’
I don’t buy this narrative that toxicity is inevitable. That’s the narrative pushed by Reddit/Xitter/Meta because toxicity causes engagement which makes them rich. They don’t want to delete it. It’s only inevitable if admins allow it to be.
That “rule” don’t apply on Fedi where we can simply join an instance that actively bans all the bs.
I don’t buy this narrative that toxicity is inevitable.
You’re more than welcome to buy what you fancy, I don’t recall saying it was unavoidable. I even think I mentioned why we somehow manged to make it as… present as it is, and how we should try to get rid of most of it (hint: through education).
Can we get rid of all of it? Nope, unless one is to pretend we’re perfect? Don’t know about you but I’m certainly not perfect.
My belief is that toxicity online is like building a six lane highway through a residential neighborhood. If you build the infrastructure to support more cars, and the law allows speeding you’re going to get more cars (and more car accidents).
If you build platforms that don’t allow cars/limit their behavior where people are trying to have a polite conversation, you’ll see quiet more thoughtful modes of transportation and fewer innocent bystanders get hurt.
Wow that analogy worked pretty well.
My opinion is that toxicity can be found in every little gesture in our daily life, no need for an highway. It’s also not somethign ‘external’ to us that appears because of poor decisions. It can and often thrives even in the most ‘humble’ or humane ‘infrastructures’, to use you image. Suffice to look how two people, say two neighbors, can literally hate on one another for petty reasons.
If you build platforms that don’t allow cars/limit their behavior where people are trying to have a polite conversation, you’ll see quiet more thoughtful modes of transportation and fewer innocent bystanders get hurt.
People can have a fight on the street, or in a pub, in a shop, at work, or wherever, even at home, within a family circle, because “he looked at me!” or because “I don’t like the way he dress” kind of reasons. Do you really think tech is the issue?
But once again, you’re more than welcome to believe what you want to believe. Just don’t try to put words in my mouth that I did not say.
I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but it sure seems like you’re saying that toxicity can inevitably be found in every little gesture in our daily life, including internet platforms, which is a narrative I disagree with.
People can have a fight on the street, or in a pub, in a shop, at work, or wherever
Pretty much all pubs and shops I know quickly expel and ban people who fight there. If those places allowed fighting (as many internet platforms do) users looking for a fight would eventually gravitate there, and people looking to discuss peacefully will go elsewhere.
Do you really think tech is the issue?
No, I’m saying people are the issue. Toxicity is not something that can be found everywhere, it only pops up where it’s allowed to flourish.
Why?
toxicity is inevitable in real life such as much. toxic people are everywhere, and they drag people down with them.
i’ve had toxic family, friends, and co-workers. sometimes you have no choice but to live with it, sometimes you can ignore it, sometimes you can boot the person from your life if they cross certain boundaries. and sometimes the toxic person tries to get you removed.
the false tech bro assumption I’ve seen since forever, is the idea you can engineer out people’s negative behaviors and impulses… you can’t. they will find a way to exploit whatever system you set up. that’s what they do… that’s what makes them toxic. you cannot create a social media network that is free from toxic people, unless you make one with no people involved.
I’m not talking about engineering a problem away. I’m saying it can’t be engineered away and requires human adults in the room (moderators in this case) to handle bad behavior.
Accepting the presence of toxicity as a fact of life does nothing more than attract more toxicity.
Your posts are really great. Just wanted to say it’s super cool to have someone thoughtful contributing and articulating a realistic approach.
Thank you very much. I’m just sharing what I think.
You’re only in control of yourself. Write thoughtful and positive posts, replies. Up/downvote based on how thoughtful and positive you think posts are.
You don’t have much power but what you have you can use.
And report content you don’t like to your admins!
the best possible answer.
- Shun the toxic people. Block them and don’t look back.
- Seriously, block them. They’re still gonna toxic whether you’re there to observe it or not.
- Find a well moderated instance that isn’t afraid to show toxic people the door
- Block
.ml,grad,hexbear,dbzer0, andquokk.au - Block any other instance or person that centers itself around identity politics
- Block all the news/politics communities. Just get your news from actual news services. The comment section for most news/politics posts here is worse than an entire garbage dump on fire.
And you’ll end up with like 3 federated users left which is basically my /all feed now 😑
dbzer0, and quokk.au
What’s your issue with those instances, he asked quizzically.
No idea about quokk, but for db0: from what I read here, the blocking of the tankie triad seems too be pretty effective, so in order to be able to still bother the rest of us, some were looking for alternative servers. And Db0 had the problem of being very open, so they went there. People then complained that more and more db0 users are tankies that can’t discuss faithfully.
Oof. One of my community’s moderators and an FV buddy is also an admin on db0. Absolutely no trace of tankie-ness detected there, as yet.
So far I just haven’t needed to block any particular instance. I just have zero participation with .ML and Hexbear /c’s, and that seems to work just fine. I don’t see any trace of them in my curated feed. I also want to make sure that if their users happen to post / comment in my community project (and they have in the past), I want to be sure I can see them doing that.
I also haven’t experienced it myself, so I should have added that I don’t support that view due to my own lack of evidence.
I think alot of users also moved to dbzer0 due to a certain Adobe software community moving there from reddit so I would assume its either a loud minority or the instance was already a dumpsterfire before it grew.
Nonetheless, if its not properly moderated or if the entire purpose and ruling of it creates the issues then it should just be defederated IMO.
My coffee hasn’t kicked in yet, so this is as diplomatic as I can phrase it under current conditions:
Both are entrenched identity politics instances (“aNaRchISM!”) and a good chunk of the calls for violence around here are from users there. You’ll be over here trying to have a rational discussion, and someone from there comes in like the world’s dumbest parrot who can only say “Bawk! Guillotines! Bawk! Luigi”.
dbzer0was aight when it was just the piracy instance, but they’ve shifted more to far left politics and re-federated with Hexbear, so they’re basically Hexbear-lite these days. Quokk turns a complete blind eye (or tacitly endorses) several power users who do nothing but call for violence, doxx, and/or do nothing but spread anarchist propaganda.Thanks for answering!
I don’t have much problem with “anarchists,” altho the term can mean a lot of things, and some of the typical core ideas are pie-in-the-sky to me. I certainly don’t think of tankies as leftist, either, so it’s troublesome that anyone would want to align with Hexbear.
Regardless, bad actors and toxic users will always get the gas face* from me. I’ll keep my eye on that stuff, thank you!
* semi-obscure rap phrase from ~1990 I suppose, i.e. a jaundiced look
they are full of hostile angry people living in alternative version of reality
We are not angry or hostile, we just want to have some freedom and equality in the world.
yeah and you see no issue with murdering people to get it done.
There are people willing to kill you and everyone you love, cause any amount of suffering, and give zero thought for it, just so they can get more power. I don’t mind if those people get deleted
You’re talking about yourself. You are one of those people.
Anarchists believe no one should have power over others
Block and report. We’re all in this together!
Identity politics derails everything into a toxic soup.
It sucks that the founders of it thought it would bring ‘justice’ to the world or something, and it just made everything so much worse.
One of the reasons I left my PhD in 2010 was because I could see the tide of ID pol alreadying ruining academia… I never thought it would become mainstream though and that everyone would start thinking that way. Thanks tumblr!
The first rule of the internet I ever encountered back in the mid-90s was “don’t feed the trolls”. We’ve lost that piece of philosophy along the way, and now we all actively engage with cunts instead of just blocking them and moving on. Oblivion is the ultimate tool for dealing with anonymous people who behave like fuckheads. It’s a win for them if you respond to their provocations, so just don’t. Don’t be posting shit like “I know you’re trolling, but…” just don’t even acknowledge them. Block/report/move on. It’s really that simple. The simplest remedy is also the most effective. How cool is that? We just have to tell our limbic systems, because the urge to engage is overwhelming sometimes. But take pleasure in sending these bastards into the abyss, enjoy hitting that block button and growing your blocklist. Look at your blocklist from time to time, and bask in the glory of it. Delight in how many people have been stopped dead in their tracks from ever bothering you again. Get excited when you see a new cunt emerge, and how much fun it will be to add them to the list.
As for ‘reply guys’ and general pissiness from curmudgeons (that is, people who are dickish but not actually harassing you) you can simply think of whatever anger or displeasure they’re expressing as being very much their problem. If they talk to you like you’re stupid, just know that they’re struggling with their own issues and that’s why they’re behaving like a stone in everyone’s shoe. Talk to them normally and without emotional language (if you need to talk to them at all), and keep in mind that anyone else who happens upon this interaction will see that you’re a reasonable and cool person and the other guy is a wanker.
If you knew the other person had a brain tumour that made them behave like a prick, you’d be much less bothered by them, but the thing is, that “brain tumour” exists in everyone. No one is really the master of their own behaviour, we’re all dragging millennia of other people’s genetic shittiness behind us, and our individual capacity to introspect and reflect on our shittiness and try to do better is also something we don’t create within ourselves, we’re all pretty much stuck with what we have, with our wiggle room for improvement being as preordained as our circulatory systems. So think of everyone as a tumour-riddled victim of circumstance and they won’t be able to hurt or annoy you anywhere near as much. Be happy that your particular tumours aren’t making you behave like a dickhead in public. It’s all about framing, just don’t let the other guy do the framing and you’re good.
“Don’t feed the trolls” can be good advice; I recently (one or two comments back!) made such a suggestion myself.
But it seems like there are times when we have to engage. Trollish behavior is behind phenomenons like fake news, incel culture, etc. - clearly those need addressed wherever they come up. The correct response seems to be situational.
clearly those need addressed wherever they come up.
I agree with this, I usually talk past the trolls, so to speak. I start with “this is not a response to you, but to anyone who might be reading” or something like that. Bonus points if I can ignore/mute the person I’m replying to, I’ll mention that as well in the response so that they also know that I wont be hearing whatever they want to scream at me.
Actually do downvote posts if you would have preferred not to read that and it isn’t of note.
I.e. downvote the 3rd post about the same tragedy when nothing has changed and not much time has passed. Downvote negativity. A neutral vote is for things that are mid and don’t matter.
downvote the 3rd post about the same
Isn’t the problem with this that there are different communities which might have valid reasons to post very similar things, and the order they’re displayed to you may result in you downvoting the original?
Sort by new and pick your favorite community. If you are fed up with the particular news it probably doesn’t matter anyway.
Be the change you want to see in the world, online and IRL. it’s the philosophy I live by
The biggest one is we have to get rid of engagement algorithms. All the major platforms show you content more like that which you interact with, which is usually things that piss you off or things you heartily agree with. This creates bubbles and prevents exposure to new ideas and different thinking people. And when you have that for a few decades, it greatly reduces empathy for your fellow man.
Go back to like the '90s or so and politics was dinner table conversation, the sort of thing that would be discussed in friendly company. Because it was understood that while you and I might disagree on what the best path for America is, we both understand that we both want America to be great.
But go forward to the early 2000s, 24-hour cable news, internet, echo chambers and bubbles started to form. And both sides politically took advantage of this, drummed up the rhetoric and no longer was it ‘we are better for America’ it became ‘the other guys don’t believe in what America stands for and anyone who supports them is not American’.
This killed the discourse. No more respectful disagreement, no more opponents shaking hands, it became a fight to the death for the future of the country in the eyes of many voters.This is not just politics. It’s every issue. It’s how we have our discourse now. Respectful debate is dying. Whatever the issue is, you either agree with me or you’re awful. And that is what we need to fix.
We need to promote empathy, mutual understanding, and respect for those we disagree with.
I like what you have to say, but I will be honest. Hate radio is what started this journey for me back in the 1980s and there was no mythical time you could have a polite conversation in the US about politics. The whole politics ruining Thanksgiving has been going on since the Vietnam War and the concept probably dates back to before the Revolutionary War in the US.
Before Vietnam the US literally purged everyone that was too left with McCarthyism. Before engagement algorithms there was constant propaganda on all TV channels, radio, and print designed to do everything from break up unions to reinforce the Christian Nationalist movement. Think adding In God We Trust to all money in 1955.
I see where you are coming from as I was once there long ago. When you unravel the propaganda/lies you begin to see the bigger picture and understand why the forces that control us work so hard to misinform and create an alternative reality where America is the good guy.
The reckoning of what the US has done and continues to do is truly insurmountable for a typical human being. Mutual understanding easily becomes a tool of oppression where we are expected to forget all of history and culture to compromise with people who are selfish and misinformed.
You can give someone who wants to destroy you all the respect in the world and it won’t change that they want to destroy you and will given the chance. This is the reality we face and harkening back to an imagined time of mutual respect is not the panacea we would like to think it is.
You can’t.
Most people love it, even if you don’t. That toxicity was always there… just look at how incredibly popular day time toxic TV and reality TV was before the internet and social media…
That said, plenty of people who posted here are barking up the right tree. Be what you want to see, and block/don’t engage with shitty toxic people and their toxic ideas. Support other users by upvoting and interacting with them when you see good content, and if the mods remove those posts, then stop using that community.
Way too many mods give into the toxic BS on social media due to the pressure that toxic people create.
with a few exceptions reality tv is so bad. I don’t see the appeal except for a few (alone, ice road truckers) and even those it annoys me when they try to make the false drama.
I heard somewhere that the appeal of reality tv is that in it social norms negotiated. People always tend to “update” their understanding of what’s socially acceptable behavior and what is not. Reality tv to many people is just a means for them to rate what behavior is good and what’s bad. What they often dont unerstand, is the extent to which these shows are scripted and that the writers and media channels are the ones who predetermine the roles and morals.
So what you percieve as “bad” about reality tv might be that the framework in which norms are being discussed is extremely flat and homogenous.
Or in other words the characters and the writing just sucks.
the false drama is the point.
lemmy/piefed have been getting a surge of users from reddit. i can’t imagine algorithmic brainrot fades overnight.
Block .ml and don’t engage with .ml users
Wait do they have a reputation? I am on ml … Should I switch lol
If you’re having a good time no reason to switch. They’re like MAGA for the left.
probably. .ml is explicitly for Marxists. it’s right in their sidebar.
their userbase tends to be pro-violence, pro-authoritarian, and anti-american, among other things.
anti-american
Damn and America is such a peaceful country, they never invade and murder anyone or coup in fascist governments who kill hundreds of thousands.
Are you talking about lemmygrad.ml? I don’t see the comment in the sidebar.
And hexbear and lemmygrad
Don’t be afraid to block users.
This is great advice for Lemmy.
Downvoting just gives trolls the negative attention they want. Ignore, block, and/or report. That’s it. We can’t change human nature.
Its not so much the outright tolls I’m concerned about (voting alone filters most out), as the general toxicity in the culture. Things like increasingly widespread personal attacks, decreased etiquette and consideration for others, and just the general death of discourse.
Oh, I see. In that case, I think the best we can do is set a good example. For example, I try not to let myself get drawn into childish arguments.
As you said, decentralization is key. Highly active human moderation is the only known solution to keep communities free and tolerant, and human mods have a relatively low limit as to what they can handle without making it a full time job (or burning it out)
The Lemmy network is still centralized enough that many smaller instances make the calculus that it’s better to be federated with the large weakly moderated instances than to lose access to the many small communities on those instances.
But increased decentralization makes more granular defederation possible. A weakly moderated instance can simply be blocked.
I think we’ll get there in time.
I’m not positive that you can do much outside of simply (temporarily or permanently) banning people who are acting shitty.
On the flip side, banning people because they disagree with you is how we end up with the kind of echo chambers that breed other socially toxic problems like strict partisanship, and cults of personality… so it’s a fine line.
Generally I don’t see a lot of people on Lemmy acting like straight-up assholes. I don’t always agree with people, and I think there is a potential for “flame wars” and arguments, but as long as everyone is acting in good faith and being reasonable about what they are expressing I feel that’s generally an acceptable level of conflict.
I’ve never wanted someone banned because they said something I didn’t like. Like… If someone wanted to come here and make the case for why Donald Trump is a great president, I would love to see them try. The real problem is when people resort only to trolling and forego any attempt at having a real good-faith conversation. That’s when the relationship breaks down and the conversation is no longer conducive to running a real community. When people start acting like assholes, making personal attacks, or continually arguing in bad-faith, then I think it warrants at least a temporary ban.
The goal of the internet should not be conflict avoidance or group-think, but mutual respect and treating each other like human beings. For the most part, I think the Fediverse is pretty good about that.
I’m not positive that you can do much outside of simply (temporarily or permanently) banning people who are acting shitty.
You can also ask that your admins defederate instances where shitty-acting people are allowed to set up shop.
I can really only compare to Reddit and find the fediverse generally better
But those outliers are a doozy. I don’t recall even wanting to block anyone on Reddit but have blocked at least half a dozen here. Just earlier today I had to because we were enjoying a nice discussion, then someone stumbled in saying they’ve debated politics with me, starts attacking, trying to start an argument over something completely unrelated …… Reddit had plenty of trolls but I never encountered anyone there who followed me around to be an asshole.
So on the one hand the capability of blocking anyone is a great way to stop seeing the most toxic part of the fediverse, but on the other hand there’s got to be a more permanent solution
