Be prepared. The propaganda machine is gonna be ramping up to full soon.
If we weren’t stuck in this two party system, the Democratic party would have been made obsolete a long time ago.
Voters didn’t care,
Misinformed selfish hasty,
Now nazis kidnap
Palestinians in Gaza don’t realize how insignificant they really are in the grand scheme of things, globally.
Given the global response to the situation, I would bet they probably realize that you don’t think they’re significant.
Then again, there’s a chance they’re just focusing on food and water and shelter and medicine and not-getting-blown-up… rather than worrying about the opinions of people who couldn’t even pretend to be significant.
The lesser of two evils argument is platonic. So it’s older than Jesus and at the same time no one has come up with anything better.
So to me people who abstain from voting are objectively wrong.
That is objectively wrong. It assumes that every election is independent - which they are not. The ‘lesser evil’ is to lock democrats out of power until they run non-genocidal candidates. The short term sucks, but in the long term it is much much better.
The left likes to pretend that only the right are easily manipulated but it’s pretty obvious that it impacts everyone regardless of beliefs, the packaging is just different. Not sure if there are easy solutions.
They LEFT the Democrats? What happened to Vote BLUE no Matter WHO!
-People who said to vote INDEPENDENT when THEIR Blue lost the Primary!
If you didn’t vote or voted for a candidate with no path to victory over Gaza/Palestine then you never cared that much about Gaza/Palestine.
I promise you every Palestinian is very, very upset Donald Trump is running the show and slobbing on Netanyahu’s knob.
This assumes that every election is independent - which they are not. The ‘lesser evil’ is to lock democrats out of power until they run non-genocidal candidates. The short term sucks, but in the long term it is much much better.
I still contend these abandon people are complete and abject morons that deserve what they got with their absolutely asinine decision.
Still glad they took their heads out of their asses and that the Democratic voters also took a bit of their heads out of their asses.
I like how this comments section perfectly sums up the democratic party.
Two denialists who think he’s fake and a copist about Harris’s loss
only because of the shutdown last year, most of the DNC made it clear they sided with israel, and by extension gop policies. if they resisted the shutdown longer the gop would suffer far more politically. the gop got everything they ever wanted from that deal.
Two years ago, Zainab Bibi Ahmed thought she had turned her back on the Democrats for good.
People like that helped get Trump elected. Harris was far from the ideal candidate, but she would have been far and away better than Trump.
Turns out Harris is a bad candidate
Turns out Harris is a bad candidate
And Americans are stupid.
Both these things can be true at the same time.
Harris also received 48% of the popular vote. She didn’t win, but that kind of turnout doesn’t make a candidate a bad candidate. There just happens to be a lot of Americans that think a felon rapist pedophile with one failed presidency under his belt was a better option.
Yeah, this unfortunately
Harris would have been far better than Trump is a bit line saying “Joe, the car thief, is better than Mike, the serial mass murderer”
If Harris had won, the Democratic party would have kept in it’s corrupt, corporate minion state.
A silver lining in the Trump disaster is that the Demicrat establishment is being shaken.
EDIT: I was going to correct “Demicrat”, but considering that “demi” means half, I’m going to keep it that way.
Joe the car thief is leagues better than Mike the serial mass murderer though
“Joe, the car thief, is better than Mike, the serial mass murderer”
Except not at all.
One was a successful prosecutor that brought justice to a lot of shitty people/organizations and was a candidate for a political party that creates/supports social programs.
The other was a convicted felon, adjudicated rapist, and probable pedophile that instigated a violent insurrection to overthrow our government, spends every day of his life attempting to weaken our nation by sowing hatred between its citizens, and works for a political party that destroys social programs and sends masked agents into American’s neighorhoods to shoot them in the fucking face.
You need to work on your comparisons.
Both were pro-genocide.
You win with the electorate you have, not the one you want.
People are idiots. Expect this.
Didn’t the DNC send Bill Clinton to Michigan and when confronted about the lackluster response of the DNC against the genocide, he started telling the attendees that it’s Israel’s right to the whole thing and they were there first? To a room full of Arab Americans?
From an outsider looking in,
Trump may have been necessary to get America on the right track. Had they voted Kamala in, things wouldn’t change. She even said that on the campaign trail.
If you boil it down to the barest of reasons, Trump was voted in because people wanted change. He’s a liar, a scumbag, and a rapist, and as much as you and I think the other side is dumb as fuck for voting him in, both sides realize that change is needed.
Now that Trump has been allowed to fuck things up so bad it seems that Americans are actually learning how their political system works and doing what they should have been doing all along. (Mainly voting in primaries, from my POV.)
I hope the upcoming elections reel him in (Preferably all the way to jail) and you guys can actually get people working to improve the country. Keep it up, Americans.
I hope the upcoming elections reel him in (Preferably all the way to jail) and you guys can actually get people working to improve the country. Keep it up, Americans.
You have a lot more faith in Americans than I do.
Source: I’m American. There are a lot of very, very dumb people here.
Well, from this outsider’s point of view, it seems to me that Trump is a symptom of Americas’ malaise and I’m not all that sure that even his fuckups will change the trend in America of becoming ever more sick.
It looks to me that the ONLY possibly path of improvement is if these recently elected social democrats manage somehow to navigate the obstacle course set-up by the DNC, and do so propelled only by the support of voters and campaign support from common people whilst avoiding falling to the temptation of selling themselves or “compromising” for political progression.
Looking back at the Hilary vs Bernie Primary, the DNC has a ton of anti-democratic tools (such as super-voters) to make it far harder for social democrats to get elected to important positions as Democrats than it is for “traditional” Democrats.
Certainly to me so far the path for any of the handful of social democrats rising in the Democrat Party, to end up as POTUS, seems to be either non-existent or a near-impossible obstacle course (with the actual DNC being the ones making it that hard followed by the billionaire-owned Press, with the actual competence of Republicans as politicians a far 3rd)
He was also already president from 2017-2021. Apparently everyone just forgot what a fucking disaster he was back then.
Yeah.
Imagine eating bad meat, getting sick and shitting yourself almost to death. Then eating more of that bad meat once you feel better.
I don’t have a lot of faith in Americans anymore.
Swap out lettuce for meat and that’s basically where we are right now. No imagination necessary.
First don’t muddy the waters with things like “far from ideal;” we know what she was: a genocidal piece of shit. To some people there’s a maximum number of pictures of dismembered children after which these things don’t matter anymore.
On the other hand, from an electoral strategy standpoint it’s not like weathering the Trump storm is going to mean victory for democracy; MAGA is ultimately a product of current living conditions, and Trump is nothing more than the demagogue they coalesced around. They’re only going to get worse until either democracy collapses or someone (probably a leftist) changes things for the better. Time is on their side, not yours. Vote blue no matter who is only an optimal strategy if you refuse to think about anything beyond the next four years. These people made the price of their vote abundantly clear as part of an organized large movement; they did everything right and the Democrats refused to listen.
Gaza is the most asinine issue to be a single-issue voter over; Trump was guaranteed to be more pro-Israel than Harris, so enabling his victory guaranteed further suffering in Gaza.
Rejecting Harris for not being progressive enough on the issue not only emboldened Netanyahu to expand the conflict, but also enabled the enactment of Project 2025, resulting in further deaths internationally, the denial of equal rights to transgender Americans, and the expansion of ICE to commit further atrocities, among many other expressions of fascism in the U.S…
The bottom line is single issue Gaza voters cared more about their moral comfort than doing what was in their power to help minimize the pain and suffering of Palestinians.
As you said, this wasn’t a confusing election, it was very clear Trump would be more pro-Israel and doesn’t give a flying fuck about Palestinians. He was clearly the worst choice for Gaza. Therefore, anyone helping him win by not voting or voting for a candidate with absolutely zero path to victory, chose their own comfort over the lives of Palestinians.
These are people whose perceived morality prevented them from connecting the dots to realize that whether it made them upset or not, Kamala or Trump was winning, and they could have done something to help Palestinians, but chose not to.
And, as you said, in the process of this failure to acknowledge reality, they also helped to SIGNIFICANTLY damage our own nation.
It’s clear you didn’t read a single damn word I wrote and just wanted to rant. Unless you respond to literally anything I said, this conversation is over.
I read it, I just disagreed with it. A continuation of the status quo under Harris would have been better than a descent into fascism under Trump and Netanyahu feeling emboldened with an ideological ally in the White House. Given that AOC is polling worse than other potential Democratic frontrunners against Vance and Rubio, letting Trump enact Project 2025 is likely to push other issues to the forefront in 2028, rather than hold Israel accountable for its genocide in Gaza—waiting four years is unlikely to have any positive impact on that issue.
Progressivism under a candidate like AOC would be the ideal, including a platform that cuts off arm sales to Israel and supports the conviction of Netanyahu for war crimes under the auspices of the ICC, but progress on every other issue at stake shouldn’t be held back because a candidate that is not progressive on that singular issue is chosen.
Ultimately, there’s nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.
Harris literally said she planned to unconditionally support Israel “defending itself” which at that point meant it had already mass murdered tens of thousands of children in so called self defense. Are you really so devoid of empathy and morals that mass murder of innocents is something you don’t care about? Every timie ICE kills innocent people in the US, that is what you voted for.
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I do, in fact, care more about what happens in my country than on the other side of the planet. When a party runs a fascist candidate on a fascist platform in my country, that is what I care about the most. I will take what is happening to other people on the other side of the globe secondary to that. I will not allow their issue to turn me into a single issue voter and jeopardize the safety of my democracy.
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Nothing you can say will change the fact that Trump/Republicans are worse for Gaza than Kamala/Democrats.
The decision was binary. This one or that one will win. The choice was unbelievably obvious, whether you’re taking our nation or Gaza into account.
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AIPAC—and by extension Israel—has strong influence over both the Republicans and Democrats, so only voting for a candidate entirely free of that influence will often result in not voting. While the war criminals in the Israeli military and government deserve to be tried for their crimes, anyone who also cared at all about the many other issues at stake—including the far greater level of suffering being incurred by the Ukrainian people—should have voted for Harris to keep Trump out of office.
Far greater absolute suffering has occurred as a result of their failure to do so. Non-voters are equally as responsible for Trump’s election as Trump voters.
Just looking at numbers alone and a majority of deaths of innocent Palestinians occurred while Kamala was second in command. At least make it make sense.
After the Biden/Kamala administration had already vetoed multiple UN resolutions calling for a ceasefire and sent millions to fund genocide, when asked about it she said she’ll unconditionally support Israel’s right to “defend itself.” Anyone that isn’t an idiot knows the US unconditionally supporting Israel’s right to self-defense is just a green light for more genocide, otherwise it wouldn’t be unconditional.
Nothing you’ve said changes that Trump/Republicans are worse for Palestine (AND AMERICA) than Kamala/Democrats.
Like, you keep repeating the same things, but nothing you keep repeating changes that.
So I guess you just have one question to answer.
Do you believe it is better to sit in a corner and cry about the world and how bad it is, or to vote in a manner that will help as much as you, as an individual, have the power to help, even if that means just minimizing the amount of pain and suffering?
seems to me if israel has the capability to project murder outside of their boarders, they don’t need american defense munitions nor money.
exactly fuck people for voting again.
I voted kamala, but I am not ignorant enough to blame non voters for this mess we’re in. I punch up, preferably not sideways and never down.
Those that realize their mistake are one thing, but those who would continue to throw transgender Americans, undocumented immigrants, and aid to Ukraine under the bus purely due to a Democrat not being progressive enough on Gaza when the alternative is actively harmful to Gaza are part of the problem.
I just can’t imagine looking a Palestinian American in the eyes and telling them it’s their fault we have trump. That they should have voted for someone that was actively endangering /killing their families. It’s wild to me that we’re still blaming the victims rather than the person who supported a genocide. Still supports a genocide. Idk dude, I voted for her but I can totally empathize with certain people who were just not able to do it. I don’t blame them. If you’re gonna have a line ‘genocide literally against my family’ is a pretty fucking reasonable one. No, this is on Democrats, full stop.
I just can’t imagine looking a Palestinian American in the eyes
Palestinian Americans should have known Trump/Republicans were the worst case scenario for their friends and family in Gaza. It wasn’t exactly a secret.
No, this is on Democrats, full stop.
So you expect a political party, or government as a whole, to fully break ties with an allied nation because a subset of their voters don’t like that country anymore?
Geopolitics isn’t exactly simple.
I suspect it’s only those who have weak or no principles who don’t understand how other people might have principles in some domain which are so strong and so morally defining that they simply can’t bring themselves to vote for anybody breaking those principles.
It’s one thing to logically disagree with the lack of pragmatism of somebody not being able to vote for somebody supporting child mass murder abroad even to stop somebody who, whilst also supporting child mass murder abroad also supported a few more bad things.
It’s a whole different thing to blame somebody for not voting for anybody supporting child mass murder.
Unlike what some seem to think, voting for somebody who supports child mass murder abroad because they’re not as bad on things which affect you more closely (i.e. national policy) as the other candidate who also supports child mass murder abroad, isn’t a Moral High Ground from were to talk down to people who on moral grounds refuse to vote for anybody who would support child mass murder.
(Also and this being Politics, it seems to me that the competent candidate who trully means to represent their voters would move towards what voters want - especially on subjects that many voters would see as symptomatic of the candidate’s general character, such as child mass murder support - rather than expect voters to move towards the candidate’s views)
that they simply can’t bring themselves to vote for anybody breaking those principles.
But what if by not voting or voting for someone who literally cannot win you are helping someone who makes it clear they will violate the principles you hold dear even more flagrantly? Because that’s what happened.
One or the other WILL win. So do you help as much as you can or do you sit in a corner and cry?
I honestly don’t feel bad about blaming the people that chose to sit in a corner and cry. Especially because their decision to do so affected a whole lot more than genocide on the other side of the planet.
isn’t a Moral High Ground
For me it isn’t a moral high ground. It’s making the decision that is BEST for my country AND the people in Gaza and wondering why the people who chose to cry in a corner couldn’t do the same.
it seems to me that the competent candidate who trully means to represent their voters would move towards what voters want
Geopolitics isn’t some simple thing. Should a candidate run on abandoning an ally when a subset of their voters don’t like that country anymore? Especially if they aren’t sure that those voters represent enough of the total to cost them the election? And when a lot of their voters still do want to be allies with that country?
Turns out a lot of people can’t see the forest for the trees.
what does that solve other than satisfying your own desire to be morally superior? what has materially improved in the world?
what does that solve other than satisfying your own desire to be morally superior?
Couldn’t we reverse this question though and ask what not voting and feeling morally superior but getting Trump elected has solved?
Not voting doesn’t change the party. Showing up at primaries and ousting establishment candidates does. We have multiple examples of it working now and getting actual progressive politicians in place against the wishes of Democratic leadership that worked hard to see that they didn’t get elected.
I’m sorry but you really don’t understand principles at all if you don’t understand “I will never vote for somebody who supports mass murdering of childen”.
For people with genuine principles some things are red-lines and the Mathematics Of Pragmatism you so neatly display in your tale of how voters should be thinking don’t at all apply once a candidate is beyond such a Moral/Principle red line.
Some people will abstain from making a choice if all the options they have are sufficiently Evil, and I’m afraid such people have the Moral Highground versus any “pragmatist” who will think the Mathematics or Lesser Evil apply all the way down into the deepest Evil.
PS: I totally understand your point of view, I just don’t think you understand the point of view of a sub-section of people and pragmatics like you seem to be don’t really have a moral high ground to stand on and preach down to those whose strong principles which did not let them vote for a lesser evil are around people not being mass murdered.
PPS: By the way, the “logic” of chosing the lesser evil is mathematically a sub-optimal choice that tends to increase evil over time in a repeating choice like a presidential vote since the results of a cycle influence which candidates get put forward in the next cycle - it would be an optimal choice only if there was one and only one vote, deciding things forever, but that’s not the case in democratic elections.
I’m sorry but you really don’t understand principles at all if you don’t understand “I will never vote for somebody who supports mass murdering of childen”.
This is so shortsighted.
You can’t wave a magic wand and change the established order. One of two parties WILL control our federal government. You’re either making a decision to limit the amount of pain and suffering in the world by acting or you’re sitting in a corner crying about how unfair the world is. If you gave a shit at all about Palestinians but you didn’t vote or voted for a candidate that LITERALLY could not win and therefore could not do anything, then you chose to go cry in a corner instead of making a decision that would actually have an impact.
For people with genuine principles some things are red-lines
Congrats. Your personal red line caused more Palestinian pain and suffering than if you accepted the world doesn’t operate based on your red-lines and made the decision to help as much as you could.
Some people will abstain from making a choice if all the options they have are sufficiently Evil
And those people are selfish for not doing what they could within the boundaries they exist in.
There was no primary in 2024 though. I’m not sure who you’re arguing with here.
There’s always a primary. Harris wasn’t selected by primary, but she was clearly - as his vice president - a firm continuation of Biden’s policies. People who voted Biden in the primary weren’t voting to change the party, which is what we’re talking about here; if you want to change the party you need to use the primaries to put actual left candidates on the ticket. That didn’t happen. Whether Harris or Biden was selected by the primary, neither were change candidates.
People who voted Biden in the primary weren’t voting to change the party
The primary where nobody except Biden actually ran. For all intents and purposes, there was no presidential primary in 2024.
The point is ensuring that those same voters don’t repeat their mistake and indirectly aid in the election of Vance or Rubio, something that would cement the legacy of Project 2025.
i dont think vance or rubio is either electable without trump backing them.
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We’ll see how this all pans out.
Harris was far from the ideal candidate, but she would have been far and away better than Trump.
I agree and was furious with those who kept that stance. I respected them still.
We would be better today but the progressives and DemSocs could be the change our country has been truly needing. If Harris won it wouldn’t be as bad now but it would all be very much status quo since the 80s.
We have an opportunity because of the bullshit we’re dealing with.
We shall see.
i would argue harris would stand by the status quo left by trump, because that’s what biden did.
There would be no argument from me, that was my point. Unsure if I was clear on the intent of my reply.
If we survive this fascist coup, what we’re going through may be a blessing. If Harris would have won things would not change.
We need to hit bottom, burn it down to rebuild with clearer vision of an equitable society.
INRI; all things are renewed with fire
i am all for forward thinking. starving the DNC until they give up is the only step forward that i see. giving what the dnc wants gives us what we always get from them, republican policies. i dont think hitting rock bottom will change the opinions of the dnc doners, but the voter? i can only hope.
fuck vote blue no matter who, vote blue only if they represent your interests, else tell them to fuck off.
Wraith it’s so fucking complex, simple taglines will not do.
Here’s my stance; if primaries are over support the lesser of two evils. Yes the whole system is corrupt and the DNC is a slave to corporations, beholden to them before the people they represent. This was proven by not supporting Bernie. Fuck them.
Fuck the Greedy. Old. Pedophiles. even more. They’re pure fucking evil, never forgive or forget what they’ve done.
So if it’s Red or Blue, then always Blue.
i voted blue no matter who for harris, i am not doing it again.
you still advocate voting blue not matter who and you also note that doing so gives the dnc the power to push rightward and attack their own progressives. at this point i believe starving the dnc out is the only path forward, as painful as it will be in the short term.
I agree, but now it’s two years later, and that same attitude with get similar results. The democrats need to do way better than just “not as bad as trump”.
Yea these people are fuckin idiots lol
That November, Ahmed – a resident of Troy, Michigan, and an academic staffer at Wayne State University – opted to vote for the Green party’s Jill Stein amid calls to punish Democrats over the administration’s support for Israel.
So, vote for the self-admitted Russian proxy candidate. What a choice.
she’s not a Russian proxy candidate, and she never admitted any such thing.
Abdul said he is a capitalist (its obvious because he is a saudi landlord), he also endorsed hakim jeffries. People need to spot opportunists like abdul and reject them
