Two more for the pile
Edit: ironically, it seems my media literacy could be called into question here too based on the mismatch between the tone of OP meme and the tone of the responses I posted. Context for anybody missing it below.
The punisher is a revenge fantasy carried out on corrupt policemen. The message was basically acab before acab was a thing people said. Policemen, who tend to have IQ that matches their best mile time in minutes, love to plaster his logo all over everything they own.
The bottom photo is Tom Morello of Rage Against The Machine. Rather than summarize his story, I’ll share his response when a prominent conservative politician tweeted about RatM being their favorite band. “I wonder what [Paul] Ryan’s favorite Rage song is? Is it the one where we condemn the genocide of Native Americans? The one lambasting American imperialism? Our cover of “Fuck the Police”? Or is it the one where we call on the people to seize the means of production? So many excellent choices to jam out to at Young Republican meetings!”
I know the point of Tom Morello being included is because RATM is completely misunderstood by conservatives, but it makes me giggle because he did a song for Final Fantasy XIV because a friend he played D&D with also knew a guy involved and it just happened.
But progressives can have hobbies. It’s fine. Lol
Who’s the dude in the bottom picture?
Tom Morello
What’s Tom doing in that list? From everything I’ve heard about him he seems like a great guy
Right wingers are too dumb to have media literacy and tend to love RATM. I do agree just a photo of him was probably the most confusing way to convey that message though.
The photo includes a message on his guitar, “arm the homeless”, should have been a good indicator they weren’t right wing.
Ahhhh yeah that makes sense, I think I was just under caffeinated. Thanks
https://www.newscorpse.com/ncWP/?p=7794
Tom Morello, took offense to the fact that Mitt Romney’s choice for vice-president, Paul Ryan, cited Rage as his favorite band
Guitar strings.
Damn, “Arm the homeless” is a hell of a take.
Yeah. The leftist in me thinks it goes kinda hard, but the volunteer social worker in me has spent a lot of time and effort making absolutely sure the homeless folk I’ve interacted with were not armed. I thought it said “arm the hopeless” when I found the picture
I mean, that’s often the same thing.
Yeah, it hits hard when Lucy Paraons says it because she was widowed for her husband’s opposition to the dictatorship of capital. When I was hungry and sleeping in my car I needed secure housing where I could do my homework and consistent access to food, not a gun. And plenty of homeless people would just hurt themselves or each other if armed.
Let every dirty, lousy tramp arm himself with a revolver or a knife, and lay in wait on the steps of the palaces of the rich and stab or shoot the owners as they come out. Let us kill them without mercy, and let it be a war of extermination.
- Lucy Parsons
Rorshach not being on there is disappointing.
We can’t fit all of the Watchmen cast, can we?
I’m not locked in here with you! You’re locked in here with me! Melts someone’s face with fryer oil. Cringe line…but kinda funny at the same time.
I mean, he pretty clearly set the record. That irrespective of his appearance, clothing, situation, or anything else, he is a severely homicidal lunatic. One of the more effective scenes. (I liked darth Vader’s “nooooo” as well)
Rorschach is basically the Punisher - it’s only luck that he likes to kill and torture “bad people”, and he shows himself that he’s pretty flexible on the definition of “bad”.
As a non-Irish-catholic who was not alive in 1940s America, I honestly can’t make heads or tails of how conventional or steadfast his morals are, for that crowd. It’s a common mistake to reference modern or personally felt sentiments as objective, when they are not. They are exceedingly contemporaneous and location dependent.
But he’s a violent, insane, religious man in the 60s, so there’s probably something off beyond turning the dial up to 1100
Don’t forget this one
In a similar vein Walter from breaking bad, though that makes less sense. Tony soprano was at least a charismatic sociopath, Walt was just an asshole
Also the classic nerd version, Rick from Rick and Morty. Bojack horseman too, which is extra funny because the show eventually called this out (in a way that almost certainly went over the head of some of the people who idealized him)
Bojack horseman too, which is extra funny because the show eventually called this out (in a way that almost certainly went over the head of some of the people who idealized him)
The thing with Bojack that I think is really poignant, though, is that I think that the people who idolize him don’t do so because they see in Bojack somebody they want to be, but because they see somebody they already are. Bojack is a canary in the coal mine to the depressive viewer. “If Bojack can pull through this, maybe I can, too.”
As a character, Bojack isn’t a goal to achieve; he’s a warning. If you treat everyone around you like shit, you’re going to find yourself all alone in your darkest moments. Bojack serves as a reminder that sometimes personal redemption has an expiration date; the longer you wait to correct the wrongs of your past, the more Sarah Lynns will come and go through your life. Bojack shows the viewer that it’s never too late to change, but that there are consequences to waiting; you can’t wallow in pity and self-loathing forever, and you’re not the only one who’s affected by the way you treat yourself.
I’m sure a lot of people don’t make it through the show to really get all that, though. Which is a shame, because I think Bojack tells an incredibly beautiful story that gets missed by many.
Bojack is a great show because it highlights so many forms of depression and destructive behavior. Everyone in that show has problems, even Mr Peanutbutter, who I think importantly shows you can be a flawed person while most people love you and you’re usually happy.
Seeing Bojack act out in so many destructive ways gave me an objective view of a lot of behaviors in myself and it led to me getting help for my major depression. I lead a very different life today thanks to the realistic depictions of broken characters in that show.
I think that people may admire/covet the super-power of doing what you want without caring about other people or being afraid of consequences.
Which is a huge shame, because doing what you want without much worry about consequences is actually super doable WHILE still caring about other people
Not if you’ve been taught that everything is a zero-sum game, which apparently many people believe, especially in the States. If you believe that one person gaining something necessarily means that someone else loses something to an equal or greater degree, caring about other people inherently means having to compromise on your own happiness.
Of course it becomes a lot easier if you believe that it’s possible to win together and that giving a little can make a huge difference in someone’s day.
siiigh the ’ “prisoner’s dillema” being taught in elementary schools needs to be a thing everywhere’ thing again?.. TT
Only if you’re not a sociopath whose wants to directly against the well-being of others
Agree with your points but I will say that Tony’s charisma seems to wane by the end of the series. Seasons 1-3 Tony 100% charismatic sociopath.
Yeah true, and I think that makes him more authentic tbh. When I worked with domestic violence situations the perpetrators often hit the same vibe, super charismatic and many people around would second guess claims against them. but underneath they had serious anger issues that made them increasingly assholes and eventually straight up dangerous during periods of high stress. The charisma is a cloak that takes a lot of effort. That’s what people ignore with the character and irl too, they rationalize it away to try and make sense of caring about a person who is objectively shitty
God I love the sopranos, I wish I had time to rewatch that glorified crew
Maybe I’m media illiterate but when I watched BB I could not follow Walt at all. Like he did the thing, he got the money, then he’s like more meth Jesse we need to cooooook out of nowhere. Were there hints that I just missed that he was going down that path? Because every time he tripled down it felt like it was out of nowhere.
Walt was on an ego trip the entire time - the money was an excuse but the feeling of being in power and in control was always the real reason for his actions. Remember that he torched some guy’s car and turned down a generous job offer for personal, functionally petty reasons before he’d started cooking. You could argue that the offer was patronizing, but if his concern was really about taking care of his family instead of wanting to feel like he was the big guy in charge of things would he really have said no?
White’s whole thing was that he wanted power, not just money.
Also scenes like when he’s ordering his son to drink more just because Hank told him it was a bit much. We’re seeing that Walter will hurt anyone, including his family, when his ego feels threatened.
There were several hints, but they weren’t super obvious and I don’t think I caught many of them until rewatching the show.
Bojack is relatable. He’s just super duper depressed.
Bojack isn’t just depressed. He’s almost certainly got CPTSD, possibly with a personality disorder (HPD feels right but I haven’t watched since the finale was new). His life sucks because he keeps giving in to his worse instincts and desires.
Hrs very relatable as someone who struggles with CPTSD, and had to learn how to do healthy and responsible things instead of just whatever my brain says.
But fundamentally as a character he represents the failure state of managing trauma. He keeps trying and he keeps failing harder and harder, but never seeks the real help he needs or learns to have a setback without spiraling out of control and hurting someone else, usually pretty bad. Hell, he keeps thinking that dependants will make him better and then damages them because of course they won’t.
HPD
I’m distressed by the fact that I guessed what ‘H’ means in that abbreviation — despite English not being my native language.
My exwife has a large slytherin tattoo. That house in pottery is just “the bad guys”. There’s not charecter arch or deeper meaning, no complexity in writing.
They are just the bad guys, who are evil and mean. That’s it. She loves em.
A lot of people have Empire tattoos, Decepticon tattoos, and so on. Fictional bad guys are just cool.
Warhammer 40k Chaos is also cool.
I love Zeon/Neo Zeon mobile suits. Don’t agree with the views, but damn do they have some cool designs.
I mean, spacenoid rights, which is what Zeon Diekun preached, was not the same as the as the Principality of Zeon, which is the Zabi Family dictatorship, and the ones that gassed and dropped a colony.
At last, a true Zeonic! 🫡
They need to be more than bad guys. Darth Wader started as good guy, than became a bad guy, than redeemed himself. Nobody normal has a tattoo of nurse Ratchet.
There are cool fictional bad guys and annoying fictional bad guys like prince Joffrey (GoT), king Einon (Dragonheart), Dolores Umbridge (Harry Potter), Winn Adami (DS9).
Consider the alternatives:
Suicidal, stupid, trouble causing and seeking, bullying “brave” Griffindors.
Bookworm “smart”, swot grinders Ravenclaws.
Sly and cunning, “ambitious” Slytherins.
Neither brave, smart or sly, menial workers Hufflepuffs.
Idk about you, but out of those options to me speaks the most “neither”, but if I have to sleep somewhere, I’d wear green.
They weren’t particularly sly cunning or smart. Ambitious I’ll give you.
The book sets it up like slytherin and gryfindor are basically the same except one is evil.
I am quoting the books with cunning and ambitious. It also mentions resourcefulness.
It’s just that the author is not that good with her craft and she made them Evil, shallow house in practice.
Or maybe it’s the other way, and she did that on purpose, so that the early children book has visible low stake antagonist Malfoy, who does not really matter compared to BBEG.
I understand what you mean. They are said to be those traits but that is absolutely not portrayed in the book.
So if you’re reading the books or watching the movie and thinking “I relate to those guys” all there is to relate to is being “bad”
They don’t have anything else going for them in the story.
Yeah the sorting hat sorta tells Harry slitherin folks are destined for big things (not necessarily good, but big) but then there’s dumbfucks like crabbe and goyle in there who couldn’t accomplish shit.
Joanne Kowling Rowling didn’t exactly stay consistent about things in those books.
Dude, Hufflepuffs got it right. “Nobody expects us to achieve anything, so they’ll praise us if we just show up”. That’s a pro level life hack. They are the “take it easy” house. If The Dude was in Hogwarts, he’d be in Hufflepuff. If I was in Hogwarts I’d be in Hufflepuff.
Dude, the Hufflepuffs’ dorms are described as cozy and are located near the kitchen, that’s objectivelly the best place to sleep in.
I thought about it. But low ceiling and the fact they are described as basically background noise made me uninterested ultimately. :-)
The most powerful wizard out of the Triwizard tournament. “Background noise”. If school houses are groups then the “best” of those school houses should say more than the perspective of a boy bias by being in a different group.
Edit: maybe I shouldnt say most powerful, best rounded? Idk.
Not because of the Snape “redemption” at the end of the movie?
She doesn’t have a snape tattoo. She has slytherin and deatheater tattoos.
deatheater tattoo
Might as well get a swastika tattoo.
Yeah, that’s why I mentioned the only notable character with positive attributes.
A stalker who worshipped one woman because she talked to him as a child and he decided to abuse orphaned children caused by the very hate group he was a part of. As Voldemort is supposed to be placed during WW2, snape became a NAZI by choice… Then only decided to oppose them when Hitler decided to kill someone he cared about.
Why he is such an ass to Neville we’ll never understand.
I thought he hated Neville because who the chosen one was prophecy described either Harry or Neville, and Voldemort went after Harry, sealing who the prophecy was and sealing Harry’s mother’s fate, making Snape hate him because Neville’s parents could have died instead of a woman that would have never gotten with his shit ass.
But it’s been ages since I’ve read the books.
Nevilles parents were tortured to insanity by Snapes friend. “Not his friend” walks into his home and he doesn’t kill them. How do we know it was done before… Because they did it before Voldemort died. He was a baby who was orphaned because Snape was and will always be, worse than 99% of NAZI’s. His actions after proved it
Idk I think Malfoy gets it rough, kid was basically raised in and surrounded by a cult 24/7 with the threat of being ostracized by his family, friends and basically everyone he’d ever known if he put a foot out of line. The fact that he got any redemption arc at all even if it was late is more than a lot of indoctrinated people manage IRL.
The satire is so good in this game.
Too good. Only a matter of time until off-duty cops have punisher and helldiver’s skulls on the back of their spotless F150s
Those civilian casualties are necessary sacrifices at the alter of Managed Democracy™
How is getting the Brand of Sacrifice tattooed missing the point?
I dont get how that one made the list either. As an American, I feel that brand on me whenever I shop and I know my money feeds the machines of giant corporations that want nothing more than to consume me until I die. Even my existing and consuming is feeding those beasts that hurt those around me and destroy the world we live in.
Sure, a bit melodramatic and “I’m 14 and this is deep” but I’m not sure it’s so innaccurate.
Sure, a bit melodramatic and “I’m 14 and this is deep” but I’m not sure it’s so innaccurate.
No, don’t accept that “you’re only 14” bullshit. I was fed that garbage and wondered when I would magically understand that the shite state of affairs in our bleak modern “culture” in the USA is OK. It’s not ok, and I have never accepted it as inevitable, or “human nature”, or any other justification for complacency I was given.
Don’t sell your ideals and hopes for a better world short because people that have given up tell you it’s not possible.
based tbh
Was wondering the same thing, I see it as a symbol of constantly enduring a reality of torment and thriving on pure hate. Reminds me of Sisyphus, except that he’s also angry at the gods.
Maybe OP didn’t get the point either on why people might identify with some of these characters.
It has been a long time but I remember feeling sad for Rico in the book. I don’t know if Heinlein intended it to be seen like this but by the end it felt like there was nothing left of the human being.
Ya they both wanted the same thing but paul vanhoeven went a more literal path. The book read more like the recounting of a jar heads experience. Implying that despite the future having all these new toys the fasicm and ptsd hasn’t change. While PVH wanted to show how seductive and enthralling fascism ACTUALLY is. Most kids were down for genocide without thinking it through. Star ship troops is a propaganda film that seduces its watchers with sex, adventure, and style.
Fascism is seductive, that’s the biggest problem.
Yeah, the DVD has a great commentary by Verhoeven where he is quite explicit about his intentions of showing what fascism really is in that film.
I guess it would have been harder to accomplish commercially a similar feeling that I believe Mass Effect 2 elicited.
Mass Effect 2 major plot point
spoiler
All through one of the three games in the series, you’re fighting this intelligent hive species with a central overlord called creatively “The General”. Right before the exact moment of defeat, you find out that the General and therefore all of his people, had been under the direct control of the true villain in the story. You realize this as the now normal, non-glowing eyes, General looks around confused and confused. Then they’re gone with the blast wave.
Starship troopers unfortunately had a perfect straw man villain with the bugs. It would have been interesting to see something like James Cameron’s tall smurf people as the antagonist in the story instead.
Halfway to that and Starship troopers is the game Hell Divers 2 which has you being a literal suicide commando. If you die in the game, you’re character is replaced by a new recruit waiting in stasis. If you look and listen, the writers give you horrifying hints of the truth. One example is the intelligent bug species are fighting back because Super Earth had been using them as fuel for their star ships.
That is unfortunately PVH’s mistake with Starship Troopers. There is no contrast to show how fucked up things are.
Why would there be contrast? It’s a propaganda film.
I have noticed a few people are a bit slow on the uptake and or struggling with critical thinking.
Though perhaps it’s best not. For example so many people feel Pearl Jam’s song Alive uplifting or inspiring. Ignorance is bliss.
Made in the USA is another one that comes to mind
is the tattoo of the brand that bad? I mean, as long as they realize what it means.
personally I always wanted one because I felt my life was forfeit to the machine that runs our world and wanted a constant memory to become a stubborn thorn in the side of the ruling class just like Gutz.
A lot of people think it means “i am big strong guts man” just like the punish supposedly means “im a cop who punishes people”
To me, it means constant struggle against a world that has forsaken you. You are a currency to be spent, and the only escape is constant effort to free yourself and your loved ones.
I love berserk.
I agree. I interpret it as a form of rebellion against the throes of perdition and fighting demons that plague the human condition like greed, anger, etc. The mark makes him aware of the affliction that some men carry.
I will say I very much suck at picking up the message in media. Not that I end up agreeing with shitty people, but I’m always wondering like “Wait…is the creator saying this is a good thing?”
I don’t understand why it’s bad to enjoy evil characters. I don’t want to just consume Disney forever. I wouldn’t say I like Griffith as a person, but he is a very interesting character and crucial to the plot of Berserk. The title makes it sound like there is some alternative version of Berserk where Griffith doesn’t exist and it’s somehow better. Just because I like these characters doesn’t mean I missed any point. I don’t think that’s the case for most people. These posts are r/iamverysmart material.
If you understand that Griffith is not someone anyone should want to emulate, I don’t think this meme is about you anyway.
This meme is about the insecure dudes who are hurt and angry and decide to channel that into some cringe edge-lord ‘I want to hurt everyone else and feel nothing but that it is my destiny to be on top’ phase.
Is this becoming a big thing somewhere? I have somehow managed to avoid those communities apparently. Or is it tied to a certain age group I don’t fall into?
Becoming? It’s not new. Plenty of people have seen Scarface as a self-made badass instead of the pathetic, neurotic mess of a man he collapses into.
This is the part I’m stuck on too lol. People see a couple of trolls online and believe there is a whole community of Griffith worshipers
I think you are forgetting that we are living in an era where “the internet trolls” are proving to be prevalent or at least highly influential in the real world. The US has elected a complete brat twice, the AFD are threatening a fourth reich, and terms like “looksmaxing” have entered the general lexicon.
No one who watched gamergate occur on in the mid 2010s, and then tried to explain it to normal people who said ‘oh that’s just niche internet drama’, and then watched the rise of the alt-right, is ever going to see dangerous bullshit online and believe it will just stay there ever again.
I was unaware if it was that’s why I figured it was worth asking. I don’t exactly travel the world and my passport is in fact expired lol. So if it isn’t happening locally in my small town I find I may be blind to it
I have a hard time believing that those people represent a demographic larger than just a few online trolls. I think the meme is really about OP feeling smart
You cannot draw a visible Venn diagram of the coincidence of sociopathy and poor media literacy.
I don’t understand why it’s bad to enjoy evil characters.
Just because I like these characters doesn’t mean I missed any point.
It’s not bad but it’s a dangerous line to tread. You may get the nuance but far too many people don’t. It’s why so many people are enchanted by Tyler Durden and Patrick Bateman. These characters are meant to be vilified, not aspired to. That is why the cults of personality and admiring strongman authoritarians still persist because many people are easily impressed by raw display of power. Yanis Varoufakis mentioned we are all susceptible to it-- and by extension fascism-- in varying degrees and we’d be lying if we don’t feel impressed. He’s not saying we all secretly admire fascists but that all of us have a dark side and containing it is really the challenge.
I know it’s just my personal experience but I see more people saying that people are enchanted by those characters than i’ve ever seen anyone actually admit to it. Maybe you have, I can’t really argue that. I also disagree that it is a dangerous line to tread. Liking evil characters isn’t anymore dangerous than liking violent video games like GTA
I see more people saying that people are enchanted by those characters than i’ve ever seen anyone actually admit to it.
I don’t know about you but i see on social media defending and glazing toxic masculine figures such as Tyler Durden and Patrick Bateman. The profile of those admirers are typically lonely and insecure men, which another user has pointed out.
I can agree that there are probably some people who severely misunderstand those two characters. I do find it kinda funny that we both picked completely different people from the post. I firmly believe no one is misunderstanding Griffith and Johan. Any posts you may have seen defending them are 100% trolls
I don’t know about Griffith and Johan. I just thought they are of the same level of asshole-ness as Patrick Bateman, Tyler Durden and Joker because they are put together in this post 😅
Any posts you may have seen defending them are 100% trolls
I even met people in real life who hinted they admire toxic male figures although they won’t say it out loud. But in social media, they are vocal what they truly believe in. Although many are trolls, some indeed admire toxic masculinity. Social media merely gave these folks a megaphone to proclaim their thoughts.
In short, Griffith turns into a God/Demon by sacrificing all of his friends and followers, then proceeds to rape his best friend’s love interest right in front of him. Johan was the product of a Nazi experiment to turn humans into super soldiers from birth.
In all honestly, I likely wouldn’t have been so critical of this post had they not been included with the likes of Tyler Durdan, Joker, and Bateman. Lots of users have used the latter 3 as examples that work with what the OP is saying. I just don’t believe Griffith and Johan fit here.
So the Nazi experiment was eugenics, so natural birth. I totally forgot about the Nazi character. I had to go check what you were talking about.
Agreed. I love tons of evil characters precisely because they are more interesting or they make the world more interesting. So many have more interesting motivations, more interesting developments, and more interesting dialogue than the hero roles they counter.
You are missing the point, this post proves it. Nobody said that you can’t call characters well written or interesting, where people fall short is when they think these people are anything to aspire to or emulate. If you’re doing neither then move on but if you think those guys are worth anything of human value then you’d be severely confused on what humanity is worth.
I don’t think anyone is really saying any of those things though beyond obvious trolls. At least for most of the characters in this post. Maybe the fight club guy is an exception. Who is with 100% sincerity saying that Griffith and Johan are in the right? This post is making up problems that don’t exist.
Again, you’re missing the point.
People absolutely pull that shit with the brotherhood of steel
I think that the Brotherhood of Steel at least has valid arguments for each side. It’s not an inherently evil idea, it’s certain individuals that give them a bad name. There are genuinely good people in the BoS.
Yeah the point of them is that they’re ultimately grey. They’re blocked from doing the most good and to a reasonable degree from doing the most evil. But they’re self destructive no matter what and for every group of heroes you get from them, you get similar groups of villains. They’re knights in shining armor, some gallant and heroic and others self interested bullies, trying to keep everyone else from returning to an advanced society, but also trying to protect them from the evils of it.
The biggest thing is they can’t maintain any moral character from group to group or generation to generation. They’re too insulated, too ideologically bound (in a way completely separated from morality), too focused on their goals. They hate the Enclave, sure, but in part because both see themselves as what’s left of the government, they hate Caesar, but they also hate other grey factions like the NCR and the institute, and they can’t see the good of the railroad.
The best example of this was all the people who liked the boys, but didn’t get it was taking the piss out of them.
sometimes good men have to play the devil just to get anything done.
doesn’t justify shit, but it certainly is effective.
Maybe that thing never really needed doing, if it’s only means for operation was via evil means. Maybe that whole system just needed to be entirely dismantled.
Don’t get the MGS on the list. I, frankly, haven’t played all of them. Only TPP. And in there you are it even playing as solid snake. And, say, we consider this Pic as a Venom snake, so how exactly is he a bad guy? The whole point of the game is to peacefully remove arms from an enemy, nukes included. I mean, ofc you can go full Rambo and kill everyone and build nukes. But then youd be evil for doing so. Real game is to go pacifist and save everyone. How is this “I misunderstood the message”?
Again want to mention thatI have no idea about the rest of the series. I would like an explanation.
I still like naked snake, big boss and venom snake and understood the messenge
Why did you post pictures of me? Those are all literally me, I am the alpha male they’re based on
What’s the message in Starship Troopers?
It satirizes facism, its a facist dystopia
To expand on that, it tricks the viewer into getting seduced by that fascism. The main point is to show the viewer that you aren’t immune to it. It’s much easier to get swept up in the jingoistic hate for the subhuman enemy when said enemy is actually nonhuman. Wisecrack made a good video breakdown of this some years ago.
At the start of the movie you’re just in it to avenge Buenos Aires, by the end you’re cheering for the guy dressed as a Nazi proclaiming the enemy is afraid.
I might be reading too much into a specific visual choice here, but IIRC even that might’ve been a false flag operation. The arachnid home planet is shown on a map to be on the other side of the galaxy, so not exactly asteroid throwing distance.
Before the asteroid we get snippets of lore here and there that hint at the fact that humanity intruded into Arachnid space and started the conflict by killing lots of bugs and that the bugs started throwing rocks in response to that.
I watched the film recently and completely missed that subtext. Could you please point me to where those hints are?
It’s a pity the filmmakers leaved out these details from the book. The bugs not only were capable of sending asteroids through the galaxy, but also made starships to travel to other planets. The humans had power armor and carried a couple of shoulder-mounted atomic bombs each.
Read the book not realizing the film satirizes the book and kept waiting for some kind of punchline. Finished thinking “wait, the author was serious?”
Not exactly. It was supposed to be a cautionary tale, a sort of instruction manual on what to look for.
Fwiw, he likes the movie more.
Who likes the movie more? Robert Heinlein died 9 years before the Starship Troopers movie came out.
Doesn’t fascism need a dictatorial leader? I don’t remember one, at least in the movie.
While fascism has only ever been observed with a dictator, due to its fundamental nature of consolidating power and national identity, in theory a very tight oligarchy could be fascist.
Dictatorship isn’t so much a mandatory component of fascism as it is a logical conclusion of the ideology in practice
Well, there was in fact a dictator in the story: the brain-bug that controlled the swarm.
If you haven’t read Eco’s essay on ur-fascism, it’s a good read: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism
So we come to my second point. There was only one Nazism. We cannot label Franco’s hyper-Catholic Falangism as Nazism, since Nazism is fundamentally pagan, polytheistic, and anti-Christian. But the fascist game can be played in many forms, and the name of the game does not change. The notion of fascism is not unlike Wittgenstein’s notion of a game. A game can be either competitive or not, it can require some special skill or none, it can or cannot involve money. Games are different activities that display only some “family resemblance,” as Wittgenstein put it. Consider the following sequence:
1___2___3___4abc bcd cde defSuppose there is a series of political groups in which group one is characterized by the features abc, group two by the features bcd, and so on. Group two is similar to group one since they have two features in common; for the same reasons three is similar to two and four is similar to three. Notice that three is also similar to one (they have in common the feature c). The most curious case is presented by four, obviously similar to three and two, but with no feature in common with one. However, owing to the uninterrupted series of decreasing similarities between one and four, there remains, by a sort of illusory transitivity, a family resemblance between four and one.
Fascism became an all-purpose term because one can eliminate from a fascist regime one or more features, and it will still be recognizable as fascist. Take away imperialism from fascism and you still have Franco and Salazar. Take away colonialism and you still have the Balkan fascism of the Ustashes. Add to the Italian fascism a radical anti-capitalism (which never much fascinated Mussolini) and you have Ezra Pound. Add a cult of Celtic mythology and the Grail mysticism (completely alien to official fascism) and you have one of the most respected fascist gurus, Julius Evola.
It’s so obvious that Eco is biased when it comes to religion.
Nazism is fundamentally pagan, polytheistic, and anti-Christian
After reading “Belief or Nonbelief?” I continue to find little hints about how Eco, even as an agnostic, really struggles with leaving his catholic indoctrination behind.
Service guarantees citizenship.
Do you want to know more?
Religious Extremist Settler Colonialism just ends up destroying your society as well as the colonized.
The entire situation with the bugs was caused by Mormon Extremist settlers, who literally started the entire interplanetary war by settling on territory illegally.
A relative minor detail in the movie, but maybe perhaps relevant to current events, human history broadly.
Oooh I didn’t remember that one, thanks!
The message: “Look at this heavily militarized society, absurd huh?” But some people: “Looks fine to me”
But would a non-militarized society survive in a conflict against the bugs?
A non-militarized society likely wouldn’t get into a conflict with the bugs. We encroached on their land and bothered them
Regardless of speculation about the movies universe the point is the movie is a satire of facism, as that’s how the director interpreted the book (that is, fascist in nature). A lot of people missed this about the movie. If the arming of kids and sending them off to war, the slogans, the service guaranteeing citizenship and as I mentioned in another comment, the SS uniforms, don’t convince you. Maybe the directors own words will:
Although some contemporary critics and audiences considered Starship Troopers to be an endorsement of fascism, Verhoeven said, “whenever you see something that you think is fascist, you should know that the filmmakers agree with your opinion”
Edit: check out the wiki if you’d like to know more.
check out the wiki if you’d like to know more.
I see what you did there :D
Don’t you think a non-militarized society would probably have not started a war in the first place? The bugs were minding their own business before humans showed up looking to shoot shit and steal other shit.
I don’t remember that part in the movie, sorry.
There are hints throughout. For example:
Weren’t these religious settlers? It says so in the voice over…
The voice over puts this on “Mormon Extremist Settlers”, yes.
The problems with that is:
- Those are still humans settling in bug space
- Can we believe the propaganda voice over?
- Mormon extremists?
The propaganda machinery of the Federation would never take responsibility, it’s all about keeping the populace in a constant state of fear, anger and hyperpatriotic, unthinking loyalty. We keep hearing about the “Arachnid exclusion zone” and “quarantined bug space” which implies that the Federation has been trying to restrict the bugs from leaving their space, while the map of the galaxy, showing where earth is and where bug space is located makes it pretty clear that the Federation of Citizens has expanded aaaaaaall the way across the galaxy. Knowing how imperialist settler colonialism works, it’s easy to see how the Federation is either
a) sending settlers into bug space to expand their own territory, or
b) engineering conflict with the bugs in order to keep the militarist machinery rolling, or
c) most likely, doing both.
Does anyone know how to bypass the age gate without signing into youtube? I tried proxies but they didn’t work out.
