Panera Bread’s highly caffeinated Charged Lemonade is now blamed for a second death, according to a lawsuit filed Monday.
Dennis Brown, of Fleming Island, Florida, drank three Charged Lemonades from a local Panera on Oct. 9 and then suffered a fatal cardiac arrest on his way home, the suit says.
Brown, 46, had an unspecified chromosomal deficiency disorder, a developmental delay and a mild intellectual disability. He lived independently, frequently stopping at Panera after his shifts at a supermarket, the legal complaint says. Because he had high blood pressure, he did not consume energy drinks, it adds.
A cup is commonly defined as 8 oz. There is no way that drinking a full 30-oz “cup” three times could be construed as “a single cup” by any definition.
As someone who has gone to the hospital for an overdose on caffeine, I really want to try one of these. Because, I clearly haven’t learned my lesson at all.
Fucking lol
Right? I’ve never gone for an overdose, but I have had jangly eyeballs once or twice.
Sounds delicious.
“jangly eyeballs” is the perfect descriptor thanks
I could vividly hear the florescent lights of a gas station once. “Jangly eyeballs” checks out
If you’ve ever had a large coffee, it’s like that. If you’ve ever had 3 large coffees and a heart condition, the same principle applies.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who keeps seeing these stories and immediately wanting to go try it.
theyre to die for ive heard
Ride the walrus.
You can see his stripes but you know he’s clean.
Panera should go ahead and put prominent warning labels on it. Call it The lemonade so charged it killed [name of latest victim]. It might double sales of the product.
Or like those worker safety counters: XX Days Since Last Lost-Life Lemonade Accident
Big Four Loko energy here.
Panera’s MURDER lemonade. So good it’ll kill you!! Buy one, get one on Mondays!
How much you want to bet that Heart Attack Grill is going to run with that idea.
Fast track for a lawsuit.
A little late for that, they’re already on round 2.
But they could use it as a disclaimer…
Why is a bread and soup restaurant selling energy drinks so caffeinated it will kill you if you drink it?
The same reason a sandwich restaurant uses only bread that is legally classified as cake
For those not in the know… it’s Subway.
To be fair, they also state in the same article that McDonald’s buns have the same amount of sugar. I would even suspect that every burger maker does burgers with high sugar
breadcakes.But this is just gold:
In a statement sent to the Guardian a spokesperson for Subway said: “Subway’s bread is, of course, bread.”
Well, if you say so, I have nothing else to do but believe
It’s not so caffeinated, it’s about as much caffeine per ounce as coffee
Yeah, but nobody’s drinking 3 30 oz coffees in one sitting. Nor is coffee really marketed as a health drink.
A 30-ounce, large-size Panera Charged Lemonade has about 390 milligrams of caffeine, about four times the amount found in a cup of coffee.
If any sugar soaked beverage is allowed to be marketed as a health drink, that’s a problem that applies to the entire industry.
And drinking 90oz is the fault of the consumer, remember how much blowback there was when New York banned selling drinks above a certain volume? The people want to be able to do drink ungodly amounts of soft drink, apparently.
Only thing I really blame Panera for is not clearly labeling how much caffeine is in a cup, which I also don’t really blame them for because the last time I went to Starbucks or McDonald’s I couldn’t find out which latte had the most caffeine, so that’s standard behavior I guess.
Push for more required disclosure if you’d like, I’d probably agree, but Panera was not out of line IMO.
If it is an industry problem, then this sort of event is usually what snowballs into actual change.
The tip of this case, I believe, isn’t just the caffeine content, but the fact that it:
- Wasn’t exactly labeled as a high-caf drink.
- Was often next to, or in place of, non-caf drinks.
- Was marketed as part of an unlimited drinks program.
While the company isn’t required to cater to individuals with very specific tolerances of the simulant, they likely had data available to them that suggests that this outcome was always a possibility, yet they supposedly ran the product until people died.
To be fair, its absurdly stupid to think banning the sale of large drinks does anything positive for anyone. I never get larges of anything, but I’ll fight stupid laws like that any time.
ehh, I think it makes sense in that it eliminates perverse incentives like “give us 50 cents more and you can double your already extra large soda,” but as implemented it was certainly just a lazy band-aid solution
You obviously haven’t ever worked in IT.
Also, a cup of coffee is about 4x smaller than a 30oz drink.
To be fair nobody should be drinking 3 30oz lemonades in one sitting either
Dunkin serves their large iced coffees in 30oz cups. I also will frequently drink a whole pot of coffee throughout the day. 390mg of caffeine is really not that significant for the average person.
You may have a caffeine problem. Like, that’s objectively a LOT of caffeine, my friend.
A pot is seen as having between 643 to 857 mg of caffeine in it. You’re ostensibly drinking the equivalent of 11-14 shots of espresso daily. That’s… That’s a lot.
Idk I’m not dependent on it. I don’t drink coffee every day but sometimes I’ll drink a lot. It doesn’t really effect me much when I drink it and I can easily skip coffee for days at a time so it’s hard to call it a problem.
Regardless, the FDA says that 400mg of caffeine per day is safe for healthy adults so the 390mg lemonade is fine.
It’s not a dangerous drink for the majority of the population. Dude had known medical issues that caffeine can cause issues with, and drank an unreasonable amount of it.
It has more caffeine (390 mg) than a Monster Energy Drink (160 mg) and a Red Bull (77.4 mg) combined. It has twice the Canadian legal limit for caffeine in an energy drink.
It’s not even advertised as an energy drink, and it has 40% more caffeine than monster and red bull combined. I know you Yanks like to live on the edge and YOLO and whatnot, but that’s a dangerous drink.
It is clearly advertised. Quit your lying.
You’re comparing the caffeine content of a 30oz drink to a 16 oz and 12 oz respectively. Red bull is 111. Monster is 86. I had gotten these charged lemonades regularly before these lawsuits. Know what was on the machine when you went to get it? The exact caffeine content. The entire time. Always. It was pretty clearly marketed as having about as much caffeine as a cup of coffee if you drank a cup of coffee worth. If these specifically need to be marketed as energy drinks, then so does coffee. A standard cup of coffee has 100-150 mg of caffeine.
The first time I had a full 30 oz serving of the mango one I felt like I was vibrating. I decided from that point on to only get half and fill the rest with unsweetened tea. There absolutely should be clearly marked caffeine content in things. And we live in a litigious society. I’m pissed because now I have to ask one of the employees to get these for me instead of me just being able to serve myself…like I can their coffee.
Because caffeine is addictive, and the executives at Panera are addicted to profits.
This drink has 390 milligrams of caffeine in it… That’s equivalent to over SIX goddamn shots of espresso. That’s not a mistake… It’s just insane.
The amount of caffeine per ounce is on par with coffee. Hardly classify that as an ‘energy drink’. Or are you saying they can’t sell coffee either? You can by the same amount of caffeine per drink (30oz), from Starbucks. Why didn’t you mention Starbucks? Caffeine from one place is the same as another.
because if it’s a normal drink but you feel good and energized then there must be some magic in that drink that would make me want to buy more of it. lacking awareness one would likely just keep drinking the infinite refills.
idiots don’t consider magic not being real and drugs being the only thing that makes you feel good. in this case shittons of atp clones aka caffeine.
I don’t want to sound like a dick, but I don’t really think Panera is at fault here. Their lemonade is no more caffeinated than standard Starbucks venti drinks.
Dennis Brown, of Fleming Island, Florida, drank three Charged Lemonades from a local Panera on Oct. 9 and then suffered a fatal cardiac arrest on his way home, the suit says.
390mg of caffeine is a lot. But it’s also commonly found in large cups of coffee. And this individual had three of them. I think Florida might want to consider ensuring mentally impaired people like Dennis Brown are better equipped to navigate a world which has leaned heavily into caffeine as a stimulant. I don’t believe that Panera is some bastion of justice and good will. I’m sure their lemonade makes every attempt to “hook” members on their product with high levels of caffeine and hiding it under sugar. However, I think this lawsuit might just mean that caffeine levels should be treated like calories: we should mandate that an estimate is listed next to the beverage so those with heart problems or the health conscientious can make more informed decisions.
400mg of caffeine is the daily maximum dose recommended by several health organizations. And that’s for healthy adults. Keep in mind that one charged lemonade had more caffeine than a full can of Red Bull, and a full can of Monster combined. It also contained a lot of taurine which increases the effect of caffeine.
The charged lemonade does not taste caffeinated, and there were basically no warnings about it in store. The marketing and in store branding made it seem like a sort of Gatorade, i.e. an electrolyte drink.
It was also sold next to the fruit juices and such. Which would imply less caffeine.
It was also part of the unlimited sips program, providing free refills. Drinking two or three would cause a healthy adult to start having heart palpitations, and those who are at risk would go into cardiac arrest after one (which is what happened with the first death)
Since the first death, Panera has reduced the amount of caffeine in the lemonade, and many stores have started putting it behind the counter rather than out in the open. They’ve also added warnings about the caffeine content of the drinks, but still don’t warn about the compounding effects of taurine.
These lawsuits are likely going to be settled out of court, because Panera did fuck up here, and they also don’t want the bad press of multiple deaths linked to their overly caffeinated drink.
A few corrections:
400mg of caffeine is not considered a daily recommended maximum, but “an amount not generally associated with dangerous, negative effects” (FDA). Most people can consume more than that and have no significant side effects.
The Charged Lemonade has more caffeine than most any other drinks… When you fill up a 30 oz container with it and don’t add any ice. If you filled up the same container with an energy drink or coffee, it would have similar amounts of caffeine.
Aside from the possibility to associate “charged” with electrolytes, none of the marketing or branding of the drink implies that it’s an electrolyte drink. Personally I would much sooner think that charged means energy, i.e. caffeine and the like, but that’s just me.
A healthy adult consuming multiple of these beverages wouldn’t likely experience any heart issues, but likely would have things like jitteriness and have a hard time falling asleep. And while people with heart conditions should definitely stay away from these drinks, “would go into cardiac arrest after one” is incredibly overblown. If that were the case, the deaths would be in the hundreds or thousands, not one or two.
Panera has only “reduced” the caffeine amounts in the drink by adding ice into the cup because they are now behind the counter, not by changing the formula of the drink.
Your last point is misinformation or a straight up lie, not sure that anything else you wrote has any validity.
Carbohydrates 78g
Total Sugars 124g
I guess the interns are on Nutrition Facts duty
Most people just correct people or offer additional information. What purpose does calling someone a liar serve? I see you found something useful that shows the caffeine was reduced but it doesn’t prove it’s not because of more ice.
Also, their statement about caffeine by volume is relevant to the discussion.
The chart is quite useless. It just says “Nutrition & Allergens” and lists a bunch of classes without establishing a base of what was measured. A same sized container or some phony-baloney “serving size” companies love to come up with? I also cannot find information on how calorific caffeine is. If it doesn’t add to calories, the difference you see in the chart is the amount of water, else the difference is a changed formula.
Credibility of content is lost when it’s couched with misinformation.
Seriously?! If it was due to ice the calories would also be lower.
In your chart, the sugar was reduced from 124g to 74g but the total carbohydrates remained unchanged at what appears to be 78g. How is it possible to reduce sugar by 40% without a change to calories or total carbohydrates?
Your information seems couched with misinformation. Should I suggest you’re lying?
I never made any claims that no other changes were present in the recipe other than reduced caffeine. If the change was “hur dur we include ice now” then the calories would most obviously be lower also. You do you and prop up whatever corporate misinformation you want, the formula was changed and it wasn’t by suddenly deciding to include ice cubes.
Didn’t see this until now, but your screenshot actually doesn’t disprove anything. Both sugar and caffeine were reduced by about 40%, which sounds like around the amount of ice added in a typical fountain drink. As others have mentioned, the rest of the nutrition facts are dubious considering that there are fewer total carbs than sugar in the original label. Also, according to Google, there are 4 calories in one gram of sugar, which would mean the original drink should have at least 496 calories, not 320.
Maybe before you call someone a liar, double check your own sources first?
https://youtu.be/N4wW85WZMJQ this video is probably not the best source, but it outlines the fundamental issue, which is mostly that people don’t expect lemonade to be caffeinated and the labeling for it, although present, doesn’t highlight it at all.
LegalEagle just did a video about it as well https://youtu.be/vKwrMD7zDvM?si=ZVTJJkqSAQ495Wml
Yeah I understand that. But it’s definitely present on the label. I’m not saying they don’t have to change anything, but I don’t think they’ve done any less than is required. People with heart conditions should read the “fine” print (which seemed legible to me).
Maybe I should just go to a local Panera and review for myself. But that video showed the labels pretty clearly to me.
Edit that video has given me a more nuanced perspective. Placing the caffeinated lemonade in the same place as the original non-caffeinated lemonade is pretty sus. And the labelling should be more clear. Probably the largest label on the machine.
Its a really annoying video but the information seems fair.
They’ve caffeinated something that typically is not caffeinated though. People with conditions should be more cautious, but at some point people grow to accept that certain foods are “generally safe” for them. And lemonade sure seems like a safe-alternative if you have an issue with caffeine. Why would you think to look for caffeine in a lemonade?
Panera may not be acting maliciously - but I would say they’re being pretty reckless with this product.
This is exactly what I see the issue as. I can’t have caffeine or alcohol so I normally just drink water or if I drink soda, I spend a lot of time looking for it to specifically say “caffeine free” on the label or if that doesn’t exist I look it up or just don’t bother with that drink. The “caffeine free” is rarely prominently displayed, but certain drinks I consider generally safe like lemonade, root beer and orange or lemon-lime soda. I definitely wouldn’t drink anything called “charged” but I think companies need to be more transparent about caffeine in their beverages than they are.
Yup that’s pretty much what I said. I agree. Labels should be more clear and displayed prominently.
Sounds like you’ve come around already, but I’ll say it anyway: nobody, including people with heart conditions, should be put in a position where they have to be hypervigilant and read every word on every label just to avoid accidentally killing themselves, especially when the warning is on something like lemonade that everyone “knows” is perfectly safe.
I don’t think they need to change anything, honestly. They clearly state the amount of caffeine it contains, and that amount is safe for healthy adults.
Because he had high blood pressure, he did not consume energy drinks, it adds.
It explains it right there. He drank them without realizing what he was consuming because apparently it isn’t obvious that it’s an energy drink.
They failed to properly set expectations. It was self-serve and publicly available, right next to other juices and teas. The expectation of customers, right or wrong, is that those sorts of products and placements mean that you can consume them at a fairly high rate.
They know their customer base, and know that their customer base regularly refills their drinks at the self-service station. They then created a drink that is unsafe to refill, as it would cause you to breach the maximum daily recommended dose.
So, any hotel is liable if a guest drinks too much coffee from the breakfast buffet?
The drink is perfectly safe for people without health issues that make caffeine unsafe.
Coffee is very much an understood and expected quantity. It’s about expectations.
Now if a hotel spiked it’s coffee with extra caffeine, more than could reasonably be expected by the average person, then yeah, possibly liable.
They listed the caffeine content very clearly.
They’re no more responsible for someone with a known medical condition that’s exacerbated by stimulants deciding to chug an unreasonable amount than Coke would be if someone with diabetes decided to chug a 2l and went into DKA.
Not to mention that the name alone carries the expectation that there will be a high caffeine content.
Then they’ll win the law suit no problem.
No, because coffee obviously has caffeine, and lemonade obviously doesn’t have caffeine
Caffeine defense?
Username checks out.
EDIT: That being said, I agree with you for the most part, though I would charge that am exceedingly high caffeine level such as this should be clearly labeled.
The scary part for me is that, while this gentleman lived independently, I wonder if he would have been able to make the responsible choice to limit his intake or choose another drink if he was aware of the stimulant effects. Developmental disabilities can vastly alter critical thinking of things like that.
Bummer of a situation all around.
App lists a regular at 153mg. So 3 would be 459mg which is quite high.
3 large (235 each) would be 705mg which is a shit load.
I think the issue is mostly, A: no one thinks lemonade is gonna have that much. B: not many people measure caffeine intake to know how much 153mg even is. Is that a lot? Is that normal? Espresso shots have like half that, and if people knew that they’d probably be more wary. I don’t think many would drink 10 shots of espresso, but 3 large lemonades people wouldn’t think much of.
Those are probably the caffeine amounts with ice added, which was one of the changes Panera made after these deaths. They apparently also moved these 2 energy drinks to behind the counter. The people who died, died from the self service, refill as much as you want if you have a card, stations: 390mg per serving.
I also don’t think the law puts any responsibility on Panera here. They disclosed the amount of caffeine, even if people think it should have been disclosed more prominently. The amount of caffeine is close to, but below, the amount that’s safe for a healthy adult with no sensitivities to caffeine. The law is clear that they don’t have any duties beyond that, even if a customer comes in who has a sensitivity.
I also think they’re going to settle this out of court rather than roll the dice on this, so we’ll never see a decision.
The difference is that everyone knows that 30 oz of coffee would have a shitload of caffeine, and everyone knows that 30 oz of lemonade has approximately zero caffeine
So the signs posted on the drink that it’s caffeinated aren’t enough? So in this picture you don’t see anything about caffeine?
What about on their website listing? Where it says several times that it has caffeine? Or has a warning label too. https://www.panerabread.com/en-us/menu/products/strawberry-lemon-mint-charged-lemonade.html
Use in moderation. NOT RECOMMENDED FOR children, people sensitive to caffeine, pregnant or nursing women.
That warning has been there a while.
So the signs posted on the drink that it’s caffeinated aren’t enough?
Correct. The only reason you would think to look for the caffeine content if it you’ve already made up your mind that Panera did nothing wrong, and desperately want to defend them. That tiny low contrast text is not even close to enough.
Nobody in their right mind checks the website listing for caffeine content in lemonade. The only reason you would is if you’ve already made up your mind that Panera did nothing wrong, and you desperately want to defend them. Lemonade. Doesn’t. Have. Caffeine. If theirs does, it needs to be made abundantly clear, with large high contrast text. It should not be possible for someone to get multiple refills without noticing the warning.
I wonder if something else is in the drink is causing these complications (maybe chemical reactions increase bioavailibility or the rate of caffeine absorption), or if the caffeine “settles” or something. You don’t really hear about Starbuck’s causing many deaths.
That’s because people with heart conditions are aware that 30 oz of coffee is too much coffee, and 30 oz of lemonade is a normal amount of lemonade
Granted this guy had as much as 90 oz of lemonade, which by my calculations would typically have approximately 0 mg of caffeine
Panera is absolutely not at fault.
This is just the news cycle drumming up hysteria because there’s not much else going on.
Yeah. Companies shouldn’t have any responsibility about selling a potentially lethal drug to the general public. That infringes on my freedom and I won’t stand for it!
I say that Panera should triple the caffeine and if people keep drinking it it’s their own fault.
Take some responsibility people! Companies should be able to sell products that kill people with impunity, if they can’t then the terrorists and communists have won!!!
The general public doesn’t have a caffeine sensitivity, so no, it’s not lethal to the general public.
Terrible take. But nice try.
Dennis Brown, of Fleming Island, Florida, drank three Charged Lemonades…
Brown, 46, had an unspecified chromosomal deficiency disorder, a developmental delay and a mild intellectual disability.
Because he had high blood pressure, he did not consume energy drinks, it adds.
Can someone explain why this is Panera Bread’s fault?
Because the drink was not clearly marked as being dangerous, a good article on this: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/panera-adds-warning-caffeinated-lemonade-stores-lawsuit-customers-deat-rcna122628
If you want the tldr: the “lemonade” was located next to regular drinks and “Photos … show it was advertised as “plant-based and clean,” containing as much caffeine as the restaurant’s dark roast coffee.”.
Apparently Panera’s defence is that each customer should look up and read the detailed ingredient list and have enough specialized nutritional knowledge to know which dosages constitute a danger to their life.
To play devil’s advocate (because I really don’t care for Panera Bread or energy drinks), but…
“Because the drink was not clearly marked as being dangerous…”
It’s actually NOT dangerous for healthy individuals. In the first death, the woman had a heart condition and knew it had caffeine in it, but obviously not her or Panera would know what her safe limit (if any) would be. Yet, she consumed it anyway.
In this more recent death, the man had multiple health risks, including high blood pressure, an “intellectual disability”, “blurry vision” and “ADHD” (not sure if he was also on medication for any of those).
Assuming it was self-serve, as most Panera Bread’s are (I believe), he would have seen this:
Now, he many not have understood what any of that means, but he also purchased this drink “at least seven times over the course of two weeks” according to the lawsuit.
Having high blood pressure means that even the sugar would create problems for him.
He ended up drinking “3 servings”, which could be up to 2.5L (!!!) worth, which killed him. That’s not a normal amount of any beverage, for any individual, in one sitting. Let alone a high sugar, high caffeine drink for someone with high blood pressure who may have also been on medication.
I guess my question would be: what else should restaurants do?
Someone with a health condition could be at risk when they overconsume on most foods that are high in one thing or another (fat, salt, sugar, caffeine, etc.)
Hell, drinking enough water in a short amount of time could kill you, so where does a restaurant’s responsibility end and the individual’s responsibility begin?
I mean, nuts also aren’t dangerous to healthy people if you count healthy people as those without nut allergies…
The logic doesn’t hold up vs how society is supposed to work.
And someone with a nut allergy will check ingredients before consuming food outside of the home, right?
Both of the deceased had health issues, not allergies. Both should have been taking it easy on sugary drinks, and caffeinated beverages. Both had consumed this same lemonade multiple times before.
I still can’t fault panera bread. Someone posted a link to a lawer explaining this case, and they also said that Panera has no liabily here.
LegalEagle did an interesting video on this where he pointed out that companies don’t actually have more of a duty of care when a customer has special requirements than they do with a customer who does not have special requirements, and that PER OUNCE the caffeine content of the charged lemonade was actually slightly less than the dark roast coffee
PER OUNCE the caffeine content of the charged lemonade was actually slightly less than the dark roast coffee
That’s still a shitton of caffeine. People don’t realize it but coffee has as much if not more caffeine than energy drinks. For non coffee drinkers it’s enough to throw a person into a panic attack.
Also, super sugary drinks mask the “bite” of caffeine and make it much easier to over-consume. Most people would balk at a 32oz cup of coffee, (a Starbucks venti is 20oz) but 32oz is a pretty common “large” size soda in America; I can walk into any gas station and find a 32oz soda cup. If I drank a single one of those, it would be equivalent to ~4 cups of coffee in a single drink. That’s more coffee than I’d normally drink all day, and it’s all in a single cup.
Maybe I need to rethink my coffee consumption
Thanks for sharing! It’s cool to see Dr mike there, too!
They are selling a drink where one serving contains 97.5% of the recommended maximum daily dosage of a stimulating substance. We (me at least) now know that that maximum daily dosage is 400mg, but I only know that now because people died and it was prominently feaurered on social media.
A borderline drink like this, should be locked away in a liquor cabinet or only be dispensed by a licensed bartender. When selling the drink, the cashier/bartender should then also warn customers of the danger of the contents and that they should not drink it if they have already consumed caffeine that day, nor should they consume any other caffeine during the rest of the day. Clearly they aren’t doing any of that, it’s just a container in the general food area, with some nutritional information that most people not fully comprehend.
We all constantly buy and consume stuff without fully understanding what’s in it. When buying stuff in the store, I only check the sugar contents in the detailed ingredient list. When buying stuff in a takeaway, I check nothing. I’m certainly not going to sleuth on the internet to find the max dosages of each ingredient. If a drink is put out in the open like this, then I assume that it’s safe.
Tbh, I’m absolutely disgusted by the victim blaming in this case. It’s not that man’s fault that he was not smart and him not being smart, definitely does not make this death acceptable.
Again, I’m simply playing devil’s advocate here, and I’m not taking one side over the other… I’m just exploring the evidence presented.
They are selling a drink where one serving contains 97.5% of the recommended maximum daily dosage of a stimulating substance.
To clarify, they sell this drink in two sizes. One has around the same amount of caffeine as a tall coffee at Starbucks, the other (852ml size) has under 400mg.
The FDA says that most people should have no more than 400mg (assuming they are 175lbs), but that’s only because it produces unwanted side effects and/or can have long term health effects at that dose.
The actual lethal limit is something like 10,000mg.
The issue is that he had multiple health conditions, which would be exacerbated by both caffeine AND sugar, but not if he consumed reasonable quantities. This is why he was able to have the same drink many times in the past without incident.
A borderline drink like this, should be locked away in a liquor cabinet or only be dispensed by a licensed bartender. When selling the drink, the cashier/bartender should then also warn customers of the danger of the contents and that they should not drink it if they have already consumed caffeine that day, nor should they consume any other caffeine during the rest of the day.
While I agree that energy drinks shouldn’t be sold to minors, since they are at a higher risk of harm and likely don’t have the brains to understand those risks, what you describe goes way beyond the responsibility of a restaurant.
Would you expect a coffee shop to do the same? Literally ask questions they have no business asking, any time someone orders a caffeinated beverage or shock a tray of them?
The drinks at Panera are self-serve, btw.
We all constantly buy and consume stuff without fully understanding what’s in it. When buying stuff in the store, I only check the sugar contents in the detailed ingredient list. When buying stuff in a takeaway, I check nothing. I’m certainly not going to sleuth on the internet to find the max dosages of each ingredient. If a drink is put out in the open like this, then I assume that it’s safe.
To reiterate: IT IS SAFE. People with health conditions or taking meds needs to be acutely aware of what they should and should not consume, especially if they plan to consume it in larger quantities that’s considered beyond normal.
And you also point out another problem: people assume that the food they consume is “safe”, but ignore any health problems they might have which could make any food unsafe.
High blood pressure, a heart condition, gluten intolerance, food allergy, food interaction with meds, etc… anyone with any of those conditions should be hyper-aware of what goes into their body. If they ignore their limits, problems happen.
If you do have to avoid a certain food, ingredient, or nutrition, it’s always best to ask to find out before consuming it. Or avoid it if you’re unsure.
Tbh, I’m absolutely disgusted by the victim blaming in this case. It’s not that man’s fault that he was not smart and him not being smart, definitely does not make this death acceptable.
I agree, it’s a tragedy. But I don’t think Panera Bread can be blamed in this case.
the ld50 for a 175lb person is 15,240.75mg. 10,000 can EASILY kill someone. 5,000 probably still kills 1/4 of people (i didn’t look up the curve). i would guess that 1000 is probably safe for most people, but even a 1% death rate is pretty high for a lemonade.
10,000 can EASILY kill someone.
Yes, 10,000mg is the published lethal dose (approx. 21L of this lemonade.)
5,000 probably still kills 1/4 of people (i didn’t look up the curve).
That would bring us to 10L of water, which could still be lethal to some people regardless of whether it had caffeine or sugar in it.
i would guess that 1000 is probably safe for most people, but even a 1% death rate is pretty high for a lemonade.
Thankfully, it’s probably closer to 0.0001% for lemonade.
Caffeinated beverages are among the most widely consumed, probably even more so than water in developed countries.
Fortunately, caffeine related deaths, even in those who take caffeine pills, are quite rare in healthy adults. When it does happen, it’s often when caffeine is abused, overconsumed, or the person has some underlying health condition and probably shouldn’t be consuming caffeine anyway.
That would bring us to 10L of water
i had not considered the dilution. i honestly have no idea how this effects metabolization (i’m not a medical professional of any kind i just dabble in pharmacology). you seem pretty sure about this so you’re probably right. i take one 200mg caffeine pill daily and thats about all of my consumption.
2800mg is lethal according to Mayo Clinic https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/caffeine/art-20045678
ld50 means half of all subjects died at that dosage. but subjects die all along the curve. I believe people commonly die at 2800mg, but that’s far short of the ld50. id like to know where that dosage sits on the curve.
Apparently Panera’s defence is that each customer should look up and read the detailed ingredient list and have enough specialized nutritional knowledge to know which dosages constitute a danger to their life.
AKA the position of every libertarian ever. No big deal, just some collateral damage while the “free market” “corrects itself.”
I wonder how much of that libertarian bullshit is organic and how much part of a hidden media campaign. This entire case is giving me the same vibes as that Macdonald’s hot coffee case, where they successfully villified the victim.
But fortunately this is in the USA, there must be tens of thousands of lawyers salivating over this case.
They usually omit the part where the market correct itself only after you sue the shit out of them
Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of people who genuinely believe it’s a good idea. Either they haven’t thought it through all the way, or they just lack the empathy to give a shit about any damage caused to anyone but themselves and their loved ones.
From your article, they’re probably not going to win this suit.
which also include guarana extract, another stimulant.
Probably, apparently they also watered it down already + moved it behind the counter. They know they fucked up, they just seem to be stalling and victim blaming for now, maybe some astroturfing as well, probably trying to leverage a stronger position so that the other parties agree to a quiet settlement away from the media crossfires.
What I don’t get is how people can defend this and proclaim with a straight face that the the intellectually impaired man should have been making smarter choices about what he consumed. Victim blaming in it’s purest form.
Someone on the very fucking thread said “anyone with a half functioning brain” should be able to tell, and I’m like what the fuck am I reading?? Somebody fucking died. Why the fuck are people sucking a corporation’s dick? Oh, boo hoo, they need to pay up and get better signage, poor Panera! It’s wild. I can’t imagine taking Panera’s side.
390mg of caffeine on the lemonade. Who ever expects lemonade to have caffeine let alone 390mg? It’s fucking insane. A can of coke has 35mg and thats enough to give me anxiety, sweats and tension. If I drank that thinking it was lemonade I would be fucked at another level.
If I drank that thinking it was lemonade I would be fucked at another level.
To be fair that is frankly a ludicrous reaction for a healthy adult to have to 35mg of caffeine.
Thats not the point though, 390 mg is a lot even for a healthy adult.
On top of that, it wasn’t labeled well at all. It sounds like they did not stat the caffeine content on the dispenser, but even if it did, not everybody has a good reference of how fucking much 390mg is.
It pretty much just looks like any other mundane nutrition facts. it doesn’t call your attention to the amount at all or give any indication that 390mg might be high. I assumed it would be on the level of tea until I couldn’t sleep at all the night after I had one (and I had it at like 2pm too, not even in the evening), and I still didn’t make the connection until I later saw it in the news. I don’t recall any other brand marketing using the term “charged” to indicate caffeine so I don’t get people saying that everyone should understand that “charged” means caffeinated. “Spiked” and alcohol content sure, that’s obvious, but “charged” is so vague.
Break it down on how much caffeine per ounce.
Because you’re being intentionally dishonest with people acting like the lemonade and a can of coke are the same.
the 35mg of coke, comes in the 12oz can. The ~390, is from a 30oz drink.
Of the 3 flavors listed, none of them get to 390mg of caffeine, they all top out at 240 mg. But lets say it’s unlisted now and the regular lemonade was 390 @ 30 oz.
You get about 100mg of caffeine from an 8oz of coffee.
Now before someone goes citing some different numbers, all levels of caffeine are subject to change will all sorts of variables, generally it’s going to be lower, not higher.
So a can of coke is ~3mg of caffeine per ounce. A cup of coffee is 12.5 per ounce. And the lemonade is 13 per ounce @ the reported (but not listed on their website). If we go with the 3 flavors available, we get 8 mg per ounce.
So it’s more than a coke, but around coffee. People need to stop acting like this is a small drink that is just packed with caffeine. Because the 30oz drink is effectively ~4 cups of coffee.
Just for kickers. Starbucks (because everyone knows that brand), sells a 30 ounce drink, the cold press, and it’s listed at 360mg. https://www.starbucks.com/menu/product/2121255/iced/nutrition
So idk, maybe people could stop being disingenuous.
Comparing it to caffeine per ounce, and saying “it’s just a little bit higher than coffee” is not the defense people think it is. I’ve quantified caffeine in drinks using NMR. Caffeine in coffee is a lot to begin with, out of all the drinks that we tested coffee was easily in the lead (with the exception of 5 hour energy drink that had 300mg per shot). And my biggest takeaway from the study was the incredible amount of caffeine that was in a simple cup of Starbucks tall coffee (upwards of 300mg). If we had tested the charged lemonade at the time, I would not have said “oh, it only has a little bit more caffeine than coffee”, instead I would have said “holy shit it has more caffeine than coffee”
I don’t drink caffeine, and I always work hard to avoid it. I keep track of which flavors and brands of sodas generally carry caffeine. If I were to drink an 8oz cup of coffee right now with “only” 100mg of caffeine it could very easily send me into a panic attack. Now imagine if I drank charged unknowingly, Probably would be drinking a lot more than 8oz if I thought it was just lemonade. The whole charged lemonade is just bonkers and Panera should have known better. They weren’t selling a drink. They were selling a supplement.
Except it is. People are trying to compare a 30oz drink to that if 8 to 12oz drinks. So it’s fair to being it down to a proper compatible value.
And there a decent amount of signage that the drink has caffeine. There’s certainly no way you’d order online from Panera and not see that it has caffeine. If you were there in person you would have to have completely ignored the sign that’s on the drink itself. And then chugged 30 oz of drink fast enough as to not notice the caffeine.
I have a fairly high tolerance to caffeine and even I can tell even after a single cup of coffee it’s effects, before I finish the first cup. So if someone has no tolerance for it I would have to assume you’d notice sooner. Well before downing 30oz worth.
35mg caffiene shouldnt cause that
There is a reason I don’t take caffeine
You mean 35 mg of caffeine doesn’t do that to you. Food safety laws aren’t written for the average person they are written for the more vulnerable.
35mg caffiene alone should not cause any notable symptoms to an adult that doesn’t habitually consume caffiene who does not have any prexisting weight concerns or conditions. This was recently confirmed to me by an endocrinologist. It’s about half of a latte. Being vulnerable would be the cause of the issue in your example, not the caffiene.
That’s the point, actually some people are extremely sensitive to caffeine, so it needs clear labelling. That labelling is not for you.
A can of monster has around 300mg per can. People walk around drinking those like waters everyday. The first death made national news. Then they put a warning label onto the product. AND they put a warning label on the drink dispensers. At that point if u manage to hurt yourself with the product despite all those warnings that’s your fault. Its like saying we should beable to sue somebody who’s selling coffee if they have a customer that drinks 10 cups in a morning and has a heart attack.
McDonalds was sued for their hot coffee burning a customer. They put lids with caution hot warnings on them and put it on the cups. After that all burns incurred are not their problem. Same case should apply here and likely will in court.
As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, the issue is that the specific amount of caffeine was not originally disclosed - people with heart conditions would naturally exclude themselves from drinking energy drinks (which, although abused, should also NOT be drunk like water), but nobody would expect a panera bread lemonade to have that much caffeine.
The Mcdonalds lawsuit is an interesting parallel, because there is a lot of myth and legend around the specifics of the case. Mcdonalds are pretty unanimously regarded to have been in the wrong on this one AFAIK. Check out Legal Eagle’s video on the topic here: https://youtu.be/s_jaU5V9FUg
Lemonade can have all kinds of shit in it. Some even have alcohol.
But I’m not defending these drinks at all. I think they are silly and harmful to teens and individuals who already regularly consume caffeinated beverages.
But I also don’t see it as much different to highly caffeinated coffee sold regularly at popular coffee spots. And coffee is far more likely to be over consumed at home, at the office, at social meets, etc.
The only issue here is that the people consuming these drinks had health conditions.
Could Panera have done a better job marketing what this product is? Perhaps. I don’t really know the answer to that, since people knowingly consume harmful amounts of food all the time without a care in the world.
I don’t consume anything without knowing explicitly what it contains, so my bias tends to be that consumers also share some responsibility in finding out what they are putting into their mouths.
You know that coffee has caffeine, because coffee obviously has caffeine. You don’t know that lemonade has caffeine, because lemonade doesn’t have caffeine.
Alcoholic lemonade is an established thing. “Hard” is an industry standard term meaning “alcoholic.” It’s why you find hard cider, hard lemonade, and hard seltzer near the alcohol.
“Charged” is not standard. Have you ever heard of charged cider? Charged seltzer? It’s not a thing. To be sure, I googled “charged cider,” and found one result. It is not caffeinated cider.
Panera is 100% at fault for both deaths. They need to discontinue sales of this drink until there are massive warning labels stating that a 30 oz cup of it has more than the daily recommended limit of caffeine. Putting it in tiny little letters next to the calories is not enough, clearly, because two people have died from it.
Because they sell what looks and tastes like normal lemonade, without any safeguards to make sure you don’t accidentally drink four times the daily recommended limit in one sitting. The signs display the caffeine content in small text next to the calories, which you and I both know that nobody who doesn’t count their calories reads. It’s called “charged” lemonade, in small yellow text on the green sign. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume that the lemonade in that lemonade dispenser is normal lemonade.
But why hold them accountable? Starbucks wouldn’t be in trouble if you drank 90 oz of coffee!
Coffee obviously has caffeine, it’s the kind of inseparable from the concept of it. Same goes to a lesser extent with many sodas–anyone who has to watch their caffeine likely knows that coke and doctor pepper have caffeine. But lemonade? Who sells caffeinated lemonade? I guess G-Fuel does, but someone with a heart condition probably knows not to order G-Fuel.
Lemonade is the safe choice when you don’t want caffeine, because to my knowledge nobody (besides Panera bread) has ever sold caffeinated lemonade out of self-service dispensers.
So it’s Panera’s fault because people refuse to read? How does that make sense? Hard lemonade is a thing and it has alcohol. Like if it’s not labeled as regular lemonade (it’s not, it’s labeled charged and tells you it has caffeine, same as hard lemonade tells you it has alcohol), why would you assume it’s “regular” lemonade?
Because you buy Mike’s Hard Lemonade from the beer section of the store and have to show your ID to prove you’re 21 and old enough to buy alcohol. They don’t put it out by the sodas.
In fairness, I see non-alcoholic beer and wine are sold alongside alcoholic ones, too. The same goes for non-dairy foods in the dairy section, nut-free food in the nut spread section, gluten-free food next to gluten-containing food, etc.
Also, would you be outraged at a restaurant (or office) if someone drank too much self-serve coffee and was harmed by that consumption? Not even regular coffee drinkers are informed about how much caffeine they’re consuming in a day, and when they do know the amounts, they don’t know what it means. It’s not on any beans or ground coffee I’ve ever purchased, and many people drink in excess of 400 mg of caffeine per day on a regular basis.
It’s up to the customer to know what they are consuming, including through inquiry if the information is not available. From all accounts, Panera did have information clearly available in several places, and it was not the first time both of the people who died had consumed that lemonade.
As a reminder, both deaths were related to known health issues, and as tragic as they are, Panera would have no idea who’s “at risk” or not.
It’s Panera’s fault because they refuse to make it clear. The only way you can look at the sign displaying the flavors and the caffeine content and notice the caffeine content is if you’ve already decided that Panera is right and you know that the sign shows caffeine content. Every single person I’ve shown the picture of the sign to who isn’t already familiar with these incidents could not tell me how much caffeine was in the drinks after I took my phone back from them, because putting it in tiny low contrast text next to the calories is not a sufficient warning.
If hard cider was sold alongside regular cider, and didn’t require an ID to purchase, and was 150 proof, then a hard cider brewer might get in trouble if someone died from drinking it.
They never disclosed how much caffeine/sugar was in the drink till after the first death. Too much caffeine can kill you.
I don’t think that’s true. In an article on Today published before the first death, they mention that “Though Panera declined to comment to TODAY.com, it posts nutritional content on signage and at drink dispenser stations in-store and at its drive-thru menu. Online and in-app, nutritional facts are posted on each of Panera’s menu items, and note when an item contains caffeine as well.”
The FDA also notes that 400mg is totally safe, and in fact, most regular coffee drinkers consume more than that on a daily basis.
The issue is that someone with a known health condition (both deaths), consumed a product they shouldn’t have been consuming in large quantities. And they had previously consumed the same drink on multiple occasions prior, so it’s hard to claim ignorance.
The allagation is that Panera did not adequately communicate the contents of the lemonade.
I’m assuming he used a self-serve drink station, as I believe all Panera Bread’s have.
This is how it would look:
This was from another report:
“The lawsuit filed in Delaware disclosed that Brown had ordered Panera’s charged lemonade at least seven times over the course of two weeks in September and October. It also disclosed Brown’s medical conditions, including high blood pressure, developmental delay, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and a chromosomal disorder causing a mild intellectual disability and blurry vision. The lawsuit said Brown believed the Panera charged lemonade was safe since it was not advertised as an energy drink.”
Now, if Brown has a “mild intellectual disability” and a “developmental delay”, and “blurry vision”, is it not possible that he simply couldn’t read or understand what the contents of the drink were?
Even the sugar, which I’m sure everyone knows is in lemonade, would have exacerbated his high blood pressure, yet he had THREE (upwards of 2.5L worth in a short amount of time!)?
“The lawsuit alleges that Panera “knew or should have known” that the charged lemonade could pose risks, particularly to children, pregnant and breastfeeding women, and individuals sensitive to caffeine.”
Unless he was tricked or forced into drinking these, I don’t think that the lawsuit will be successful. Had he died consuming the food they served in moderation, there could be settlement. But even that would a stretch to win since he had a health condition that Panera Bread (or each different employee) wouldn’t be aware of, or responsible for.
Because the beverages were poorly marked. People don’t assume lemonade has caffeine, especially energy drink levels of caffeine.
I need to get more of that fucking lemonade.
That charged lemonade is going to be a big hit in 2024, I tell 'ya.
What, suicide by caffeine? I can’t say I saw that one coming earlier in the year.
It’s not pretty, being nauseous, unable to breath and convulsing for hours before dying.
I have tachycardia and I’m supposed to avoid caffeine. But I could easily not read the fine print and drink this. Who expects caffeine in their lemonade?
So you’d see ‘charged lemonade’ and not all any questions…
People who read things as advertised?
I recently went to try the charged lemonade (was really gross btw), they do a pretty good job of advertising what’s in it. You’d honestly have to go out of your way to avoid the signage telling you about the caffeine.
That and if a drink is charged it usually implies caffeine, alcohol, or vitamin stuff. Either way it is something a person should probably be curious enough to investigate before consuming. Idk why someone would just order and drink something that they don’t know anything about… That just seems weird and irresponsible
I’m usually all for knocking corps down a peg, but this charged lemonade stuff with panera feels more like a failure of personal responsibility of the individual.
Something tells me the fact that he was developmentally delayed and had a mental disorder with what sounds like diabetes, makes me unsurprised fam.
And these two comments are why cases try to settle vs going to trial.
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“Charged” is not standard language. Have you ever heard of charged cider? Charged seltzer? It’s not a thing. To be sure, I googled “charged cider,” and found one result. It is not caffeinated cider.
Many caffeinated products use “charged” language. Coca cola makes a caffeinated product in the Maldives called, simply, “Charged.” Dunkin Donuts Let’s you “charge” any drink (add a shot of espresso), you can buy “charged” brownies on Amazon, and so on.
This is a fucking insane comment on a post about someone with a disability. Fuck you.
Was just there, they recently moved them behind the counter, this time they were completely gone.
Panera Dead.
Damn I need to go to Panera
gd at least limit 1 per customer wtf
Why? Starbucks doesn’t limit their coffee and it has the same caffeine per ml as this drink.
Starbucks doesn’t have a tap with unlimited refills, either.
Even if they did, a normal person understands that 30 oz of coffee is too much coffee
If you get a regular cup of coffee, you absolutely can ask for a free refill. Unless they changed that, but that was a pretty common thing for college students at one point. 4 cups of coffee aren’t out of the question.
The difference is that coffee typically has caffeine, and lemonade typically has no caffeine
So, you realize a cup is an object right? Like, this is commonly referred to as a “cup”
It is not 8 oz. It is an object that you hold in your hand that’s meant to contain liquid. A single one of those objects might be called a single cup, regardless of its size
In that sense, stating an amount of caffeine per “cup” is completely meaningless, since they can be most any size. It could mean a coffee cup (5 oz) or a 7-11 Team Gulp cup (128oz), or anything in between or beyond.
I would argue that stating an amount per 8 oz is completely meaningless, and that we should instead state the amount in each cup size that the restaurant sells
Seems pointless, especially if free refills are involved. He could have just as easily drank 11 8-oz cups if they sold them in that size. All it does is make it sound crazier at first glance without changing anything about the facts.
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I think some Panera breads still have the charged lemonade right next to the normal lemonade or something like that… making it easy to mistake the two. The lemonade also has way too much caffeine in one serving, making it extremely potent.
Yeah I see that now. Poor guy, Panera definitely needs to do better and make it clear on the menu.
While he has a developmental delay and intellectual disability, I wouldn’t blame anyone for assuming lemonade has much less caffeine than an energy drink.
Yeah that’s true, it really should be on Panera to make it clear to the average person that it’s not your regular kind of lemonade.
Since that initial big story in early october, Panera has done more to make it clear just how much caffeine is in these drinks. Prior to this, without going to their website someone might not even know they were caffeinated at all.
Very true, it really should be Panera’s responsibility to make these kinds of things crystal clear for any customer.
Article says he had mild intellectual disability.
Maybe because the article tells you he was developmentally delayed, kinda like people who don’t read the article.
Yeah that’s on me. Just read the title and reacted while at work. Panera really needs to make it clear on the menu itself at how this lemonade is very different from the regular kind. Poor guy.
