Fundamental logic skills also imply that atheism is a belief “God doesn’t exist!”
As an upgrade, try agnosticism: “Do we have good evidence that God exists?” So far, the only argument in favor of atheism I know of is the Occam’s Razor (those manifestations of God could also be explained in other, possibly simpler ways).
Evidence based existence is what I believe in personally. Speculation and fantasy can be useful in some parts of life, but for me, imaginary friends are a mental health disorder in anyone claiming they are real.
In general, I support your stance. The devil is in the details, though, so to speak. You can only get so much evidece first-hand, and need to believe others about the rest. How do you distinguish fraudsters from honest bet mistaken people from people knowing the truth?
It is weird the feds admit UAPs are real now. Of course they don’t say “it’s aliens” but then again we wouldn’t yet know, it could or could not be. Maybe China has sufficiently advanced tech that we think shouldn’t be possible, maybe they’re aliens, maybe extra dimensional, maybe under the water somewhere, but what we do know is that there does appear to be something strange in the neighborhood.
No it isn’t. While it’s as easy as ever to fake it, the ease of sharing evidence these days makes denying that “weird stuff sometimes happens” much harder than it used to be, and it is such an obvious claim that denying it doesn’t serve much purpose.
but what we do know is that there does appear to be something strange in the neighborhood.
Usually, when it happens often enough that we can actually investigate rather than just saying “this one time weird fluke in our cameras was weird,” it turns out to be “the atmosphere is bendier than most people think” or “wow, what weird things your shadow can do sometimes.”
I don’t know what it is, but I also don’t know what it’s not. And neither does the Navy or anyone else. Those videos are still in the “one weird fluke” category (unless the Navy figured it out later and didn’t tell anyone).
The thing is that it could be “shadows” or something similar mundane, but it could also be some kind of civilian drone or something combined with a software glitch that made the instrumentation report the numbers wrong. It could be a piece of experimental or otherwise new technology that’s actually behaving the way the computer thinks. Nobody knows, and without more evidence of some kind, nobody will.
And sure, it could be aliens. But the prior probability on that one makes it exceedingly unlikely compared to the less exciting and more mundane explanations.
Those FLIR thermal videos from far off naval ships spotting strange objects in the sky that in some cases do things our airships cannot, like submerge in the ocean and maneuver in ways that would physically break our planes, can’t be showing conventional shadows, unless you mean something else by “shadows” I guess.
I didn’t say it was aliens, but it would honestly be weirder if it was “shadows” on those videos.
Agnostic atheist: Doesn’t believe in any gods, claims the existence or nonexistence of gods is fundamentally unknowable
Gnostic atheist: Doesn’t believe in any gods, claims to know no gods exist
Agnostic theist: Believes in god(s), claims the existence or nonexistence of gods is fundamentally unknowable
Gnostic theist: Believes in god(s), claims to know that those god(s) exist
I think all four types of people exist in decent numbers, but personally I, as an agnostic atheist, think either version of agnosticism is the only logically sound position. Gnosticism just feels disingenuous to me. Unfortunately I get the feeling that Christianity in the US is slipping further and further towards gnostic theism, and with that comes very dogmatic and oppressive rhetoric and actions.
Not really dumb and not really so different from how you describe yourself.
I identify as an agnostic atheist. I don’t think it is possible to prove a deity exists, but I’m fully open to the prospect of being wrong and as with anything else in science, should new evidence/data somehow come along and prove that there is some kind of deity/creator/what have you, I would look at it and potentially change my mind.
If there is a range of theories about the world say 1 billion different statements and 10 had a very good chance of being true, 100 a reasonable chance and 999,999,890 had a mathematically insignificant of being true say the same probability as my butt-hole being the living embodiment of the universe’s creator, Santa being real, or the Easter bunny being the representative of Satan on earth it would be awfully silly if we talked about a tiny segment of those 999,999,890 as if they might be real only because they are particularly popular.
I don’t describe myself as agnostic towards divine buttholism or Santa I say reasonably that they aren’t true because that is how we describe things without meaningful probability of being true. Similarly there is no reasonable probability in my understanding of the universe having a creator so I confidently describe myself as an atheist.
Gnostic atheism is only unsound if you insist we make absolute statements like 2 != 1 instead of speaking in absolutes as shorthand for probabilities that tend towards insignificance which is literally how people think and communicate outside of math. Attempts to approach philosophy like math are generally nonsense because our understand is far too underdeveloped for that to be anything but cargo cult antics.
I disagree with the person you are replying to using the word “upgrade”, but also with your characterization of agnosticism as “just sitting on the fence”. It’s a coherent belief in its own right, not simply a refusal to choose between other options.
Now that you mention it, I’m not entirely convinced it is a fully coherent belief in its own right, more of a lack of wanting to enter the debate or a subcategory of atheism.
Shall we try it with unicorns? Unicorn believer says they saw a unicorn.
Atheist viewpoint would say something along the lines of “To persuade me they exist I’d need to see one in the flesh or at the very least a full anatomical breakdown of how their magical properties work with corroboration from other unicorn enthusiasts.”
The agnostic standpoint is what exactly? “We can’t know whether unicorns exist or not so there’s no point discussing it.”?
I would say “there’s no point in arguing about it if neither of you can prove your position. If it is unprovable then I don’t care if unicorns exist or not. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. It doesn’t affect me. I won’t waste mental bandwidth thinking about it or discussing it further.”
The statement that god doesn’t exist can be best described as dismissal of a class of theories asserted without evidence and thus dismissed without any. People don’t exhaustively examine the universe they examine enough of it to make theories and draw increasingly strong conclusions. Pretending there is no difference between asserting for no reason something is true AGAINST mountains of actual evidence like asserting your particular religions deity is real and drawing strong theories based on reasonable analysis is disingenuous. You didn’t examine every chimney to conclude santa isn’t real and I didn’t examine every iota of the natural world to conclude it doesn’t have a creator. .
Fundamental logic skills also imply that atheism is a belief “God doesn’t exist!”
As an upgrade, try agnosticism: “Do we have good evidence that God exists?” So far, the only argument in favor of atheism I know of is the Occam’s Razor (those manifestations of God could also be explained in other, possibly simpler ways).
“Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby”
I like “in the same way bald is a hair color”
Evidence based existence is what I believe in personally. Speculation and fantasy can be useful in some parts of life, but for me, imaginary friends are a mental health disorder in anyone claiming they are real.
In general, I support your stance. The devil is in the details, though, so to speak. You can only get so much evidece first-hand, and need to believe others about the rest. How do you distinguish fraudsters from honest bet mistaken people from people knowing the truth?
Logic and reasoning preferably with scientific evidence.
Sort of like how you can only get so much evidence for aliens or Bigfoot and you just have to trust the conspiracy theorists about the rest
It is weird the feds admit UAPs are real now. Of course they don’t say “it’s aliens” but then again we wouldn’t yet know, it could or could not be. Maybe China has sufficiently advanced tech that we think shouldn’t be possible, maybe they’re aliens, maybe extra dimensional, maybe under the water somewhere, but what we do know is that there does appear to be something strange in the neighborhood.
No it isn’t. While it’s as easy as ever to fake it, the ease of sharing evidence these days makes denying that “weird stuff sometimes happens” much harder than it used to be, and it is such an obvious claim that denying it doesn’t serve much purpose.
Usually, when it happens often enough that we can actually investigate rather than just saying “this one time weird fluke in our cameras was weird,” it turns out to be “the atmosphere is bendier than most people think” or “wow, what weird things your shadow can do sometimes.”
Idk if you have seen the videos released by the navy during covid, but it ain’t shadows.
I don’t know what it is, but I also don’t know what it’s not. And neither does the Navy or anyone else. Those videos are still in the “one weird fluke” category (unless the Navy figured it out later and didn’t tell anyone).
The thing is that it could be “shadows” or something similar mundane, but it could also be some kind of civilian drone or something combined with a software glitch that made the instrumentation report the numbers wrong. It could be a piece of experimental or otherwise new technology that’s actually behaving the way the computer thinks. Nobody knows, and without more evidence of some kind, nobody will.
And sure, it could be aliens. But the prior probability on that one makes it exceedingly unlikely compared to the less exciting and more mundane explanations.
Those FLIR thermal videos from far off naval ships spotting strange objects in the sky that in some cases do things our airships cannot, like submerge in the ocean and maneuver in ways that would physically break our planes, can’t be showing conventional shadows, unless you mean something else by “shadows” I guess.
I didn’t say it was aliens, but it would honestly be weirder if it was “shadows” on those videos.
Atheism is a lack of belief, not a belief in a lack
What would you call a belief in a lack?
Gnostic atheism, as opposed to agnostic atheism. Atheism as a label doesn’t imply one or the other, it’s simply a lack of belief in a god.
No they don’t and agnosticism isn’t an upgrade, it’s just sitting on the fence.
Most athiests are agnostic to some degree and vice versa.
The burden of proof lies with the person making the extraordinary claim.
Agnostic atheist: Doesn’t believe in any gods, claims the existence or nonexistence of gods is fundamentally unknowable
Gnostic atheist: Doesn’t believe in any gods, claims to know no gods exist
Agnostic theist: Believes in god(s), claims the existence or nonexistence of gods is fundamentally unknowable
Gnostic theist: Believes in god(s), claims to know that those god(s) exist
I think all four types of people exist in decent numbers, but personally I, as an agnostic atheist, think either version of agnosticism is the only logically sound position. Gnosticism just feels disingenuous to me. Unfortunately I get the feeling that Christianity in the US is slipping further and further towards gnostic theism, and with that comes very dogmatic and oppressive rhetoric and actions.
As an atheist who would fully accept the existence of a deity if any form of rigorous proof was provided, these boxes are dumb.
Not really dumb and not really so different from how you describe yourself.
I identify as an agnostic atheist. I don’t think it is possible to prove a deity exists, but I’m fully open to the prospect of being wrong and as with anything else in science, should new evidence/data somehow come along and prove that there is some kind of deity/creator/what have you, I would look at it and potentially change my mind.
Sounds like straight up atheism to me…
It’s agnostic atheism. I don’t believe one exists, but I also admit I don’t know for sure.
It’s just a bit of a pointless distinction. No atheist could claim they know for sure.
Eh disagree but whatevs.
If there is a range of theories about the world say 1 billion different statements and 10 had a very good chance of being true, 100 a reasonable chance and 999,999,890 had a mathematically insignificant of being true say the same probability as my butt-hole being the living embodiment of the universe’s creator, Santa being real, or the Easter bunny being the representative of Satan on earth it would be awfully silly if we talked about a tiny segment of those 999,999,890 as if they might be real only because they are particularly popular.
I don’t describe myself as agnostic towards divine buttholism or Santa I say reasonably that they aren’t true because that is how we describe things without meaningful probability of being true. Similarly there is no reasonable probability in my understanding of the universe having a creator so I confidently describe myself as an atheist.
Gnostic atheism is only unsound if you insist we make absolute statements like 2 != 1 instead of speaking in absolutes as shorthand for probabilities that tend towards insignificance which is literally how people think and communicate outside of math. Attempts to approach philosophy like math are generally nonsense because our understand is far too underdeveloped for that to be anything but cargo cult antics.
I disagree with the person you are replying to using the word “upgrade”, but also with your characterization of agnosticism as “just sitting on the fence”. It’s a coherent belief in its own right, not simply a refusal to choose between other options.
Now that you mention it, I’m not entirely convinced it is a fully coherent belief in its own right, more of a lack of wanting to enter the debate or a subcategory of atheism.
Shall we try it with unicorns? Unicorn believer says they saw a unicorn.
Atheist viewpoint would say something along the lines of “To persuade me they exist I’d need to see one in the flesh or at the very least a full anatomical breakdown of how their magical properties work with corroboration from other unicorn enthusiasts.”
The agnostic standpoint is what exactly? “We can’t know whether unicorns exist or not so there’s no point discussing it.”?
As someone who leans agnostic, I would say this is a strawman argument. Unicorns and religions/gods are not related.
How does one “lean” agnostic?
It’s not a strawman argument, I’ll let you pick any imaginary creature you please.
I would say “there’s no point in arguing about it if neither of you can prove your position. If it is unprovable then I don’t care if unicorns exist or not. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. It doesn’t affect me. I won’t waste mental bandwidth thinking about it or discussing it further.”
Mind if I take some of your income to fund my unicorn sanctuary instead of improving tangible public services?
You’re already taking some to find out if japanese quail become more promiscuous under the influence of cocaine, this wouldn’t be too different tbh.
The only people who think this are theists. Gnostic atheists and agnostic atheists are both atheists.
The statement that god doesn’t exist can be best described as dismissal of a class of theories asserted without evidence and thus dismissed without any. People don’t exhaustively examine the universe they examine enough of it to make theories and draw increasingly strong conclusions. Pretending there is no difference between asserting for no reason something is true AGAINST mountains of actual evidence like asserting your particular religions deity is real and drawing strong theories based on reasonable analysis is disingenuous. You didn’t examine every chimney to conclude santa isn’t real and I didn’t examine every iota of the natural world to conclude it doesn’t have a creator. .