The most famous forms of Holocaust denial and revisionism tend to focus on Jews, casting doubt, for example, on how many were exterminated in the camps. But denying the impact the Nazis had on the other groups they targeted, including queer and trans people, disabled people and Romani people, is still Holocaust denial. Maybe someone should tell J.K. Rowling.
She knows she is doing it and doesnt care.
Like every conservative, they just want queer people dead, unless its their own children.
She’s not a conservative, she’s a liberal (in the political science sense of the word, not the USian synonym for leftist).
It’s not 100% clear where Rowling’s transphobia comes from. She certainly fits into the group of transphobic cis women who have been abused by cis men and concluded that all men are evil, including the ones that want to be women.
But there’s also a dynamic which I think you can see with Graham Linehan and Dave Chappelle as well. Born into comfortable middle-class families, well-educated, never really thought about their bog-standard liberalism. Became extremely successful, became accustomed to near universal adoration, made a thoughtless transphobic comment/skit, received criticism and reacted with absolute fury at the idea they could possibly be prejudiced about anything. Because they’re liberals, you see.
All three just keep digging that hole deeper rather than face up to the idea that maybe they got something wrong. Linehan’s career is over (as is his marriage), Dave Chappelle is hanging on by a thread and flirting with the right, and Rowling doesn’t give a shit because she’s a billionaire and does not have to give a shit about anything at all.
She’s a blairist, and blairists are only slightly less morally bankrupt thatcherites.
For all their sins, a true European style liberal wouldn’t want the state to tell you which restroom you use or what medical treatment they have access to - of course they also believe that trans people that were born into poor families don’t deserve access to any medical treatment at all but that’s another story.
She’s not a conservative, she’s a liberal…
You are mixing definitions.
In fiscal policy, “conservatism” is opposite “liberalism”.
In social policy, “conservatism” is opposite “progressivism”.
No one here is accusing this homophobic bridge troll of having conservative fiscal policy.
She is socially conservative. And as such, she is a bigot. There can be no defense of her from anyone who is not a bigot.
No. We’re talking political categorisations, not the dictionary definition.
Conservatives are socially conservative and economically liberal.
Liberals are socially liberal and economically liberal.
Liberals have never had a problem abandoning their high-minded ideals when there were savages to civilise. Because liberalism has no analysis of power, and an absolute belief in the fundamental impossibility that they could be wrong about anything.
There’s no doubt that she is shifting to the right, because they are fawning over her and she has no politics. See also Linehan and Chappelle. They were all bog-standard liberals before being criticised.
Chappelle was only liberal where racism was concerned. Otherwise he has been squarely neo-liberal when pushed into any political discussion. I believe Rowling has also always been neo-liberal.
Neo-liberals are conservatives. They toy with progressivism only when it benefits them. But, neo-liberals are otherwise conservatives with a bit more tact than typical conservatives.
You’re not wrong, except in believing that classical liberalism was ever any different.
I no longer confuse classical liberalism with progressivism. I was corrected on that topic a few years ago and learned my lesson.
I hate that conservatives in the U.S. worked so hard to use these terms interchangably. They’ve gleefully created chaos with their misuse of words as pejoratives and it makes having adult conversations so much more complicated. Which I suppose was their goal all along.
I believe that’s why “centrist” has become a popular substitute word, to sidestep the confusion.
Her world views are absolutely conservative by today’s standard. Especially her views on gender roles. I mean have you read Harry Potter when you were younger? All important characters that actually shape the plot are male. She went out of her way to give Harry different father figures, believing that‘s what a boy needs when he grows up. But it‘s enough when his mother just loved him. Her female characters are far less layered than the male ones and more often than not reduced to mere tropes. The most prominent one being the pedantically strict auntie, a template which wich gets pasted a lot. There’s also the crazy auntie character and the tomboy. But that‘s pretty much it, really. Hermione herself ranges between overly strict and tomboy throughout the books and the only way she managed to escape this pattern is by… magic plastic surgery to shrink her front teeth. Rowling has clearly defined genders to be a black or white kind of thing for herself and she clearly outlined which gender has to fill what role.
Totally agree with all of that. But I think the disagreement is based on what you think a liberal is. She is a New Labourite through and through.
British transphobia is as prevalent amongst middle-class, white liberals (centrists) as it is on the right; I’d say that they started it here.
Writers for The Guardian (US) wrote a letter protesting that bastion of liberalism’s transphobic stance: Why we take issue with the Guardian’s stance on trans rights in the UK.
The political dividing line here is very, very different to that in the US.
The reason traditional gender roles are called than and are that is because most people act in accordance with them.
And I disagree that all female characters have less depth intentionally.
These are still books about a boy, told from his point of view. Most of the depth is in his head.
She’s not a conservative, she’s a liberal (in the political science sense of the word, not the USian synonym for leftist).
No leftist self-identifies as a liberal in the US.
Liberal and leftist are synonyms to the US right such that everyone left of them is considered a “liberal”, and the term is usually used pejoratively.
It’s usually used perjoratively by the left, tbf.
In the established party-political sense, Liberal is now clear enough. But liberal as a term of political discourse is complex. It has been under regular and heavy attack from conservative positions, where the senses of lack of restraint and lack of discipline have been brought to bear, and also the sense of a (weak and sentimental) generosity. The sense of a lack of rigour has also been drawn on in intellectual disputes. Against this kind of attack, liberal has often been a group term for PROGRESSIVE or RADICAL (qq.v.) opinions, and is still clear in this sense, notably in USA. But liberal as a pejorative term has also been widely used by socialists and especially Marxists. This use shares the conservative sense of lack of rigour and of weak and sentimental beliefs. Thus far it is interpreted by liberals as a familiar complaint, and there is a special edge in their reply to socialists, that they are concerned with political freedom and that socialists are not. But this masks the most serious sense of the socialist use, which is the historically accurate observation that liberalism is a doctrine based on INDIVIDUALIST (q.v.) theories of man and society and is thus in fundamental conflict not only with SOCIALIST (q.v.) but with most strictly SOCIAL (q.v.) theories. The further observation, that liberalism is the highest form of thought developed within BOURGEOIS (q.v.) society and in terms of CAPITALISM (q.v.), is also relevant, for when liberal is not being used as a loose swear-word, it is to this mixture of liberating and limiting ideas that it is intended to refer. Liberalism is then a doctrine of certain necessary kinds of freedom but also, and essentially, a doctrine of possessive individualism.
Good point that is also true and it’s the reason no leftist self-identifies as a liberal. However, my comment was in response to this statement:
She’s not a conservative, she’s a liberal (in the political science sense of the word, not the USian synonym for leftist).
My point (which you are supporting) is that leftist and liberal are not synonyms in the US except to people in the US who apply the term liberal wrongly.
I think the trans thing started as a sincerely held conviction very much a long the lines as you’re describing, and while this is and can only be utter speculation, I have a feeling a lot of what comes after as in Chappelle, probably with Linehan (but I don’t really know anything about his case) and also other examples like the vaccines cause autism guy, I think these people are seeing an opportunity in their ostracism to keeping their profiles high and business opportunities as well.
I think it’s a sort of a ‘hung for a sheep as for a lamb’ kind of logic where you mightn’t really have had any particular common cause with a lot of conservative views, or fringe elements before, but their willingness to embrace and lionize you for this one particular stance creates a new audience and market for you just as others are shrinking. From there it makes sense to gradually dole out hints and allusions to more conservative talking points and just keep ratcheting it up piecemeal to keep that profile up. For this to work you have to eventually be less hinting and more direct and the positions have to be more extreme and on more and more diverse matters, even ones you probably never had any opinion on because this is a pathway to becoming a kind professional provocateur and shock jock.
For some feminists, especially older ones, the transphobia comes from the long fight against the patriarchy and the feeling that men are trying to encroach on everything they fought for by becoming women. I had that explained to me by multiple (three) feminists in the last few years.
Yes, that’s the divide within ‘radical feminism’. The trans-exclusionary TERFs and the trans-inclusionary TIRFs. They both start with “gender is a social construct” but the TERFs have somehow got from there to biological essentialism. They’re a minority of a minority. But they tend to be middle-class so they make a lot of noise.
They sound like pleasant people to be around
Graham Linehan
Wow, Linehan really dug in hard according to his Wiki.
A really tragic trajectory. His work was genuinely great. And there isn’t going to be any more of it (unless his new fascist pals persuade him to do a Leni Riefenstahl for them).
HBomberGuy’s Donkey Kong 64 “Fuck You Graham” nightmare stream for trans rights was absolutely marvelous
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Are you advocating for violence? I don’t understand your machine gun comment.
Just for having the right tools if the crowd doesn’t stop with verbal demands
So you are advocating for shooting people who disagree with you. Got it. Thank you for showing the caliber of person you are.
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Maybe she just has her own views and your tribalistic mind can’t comprehend that?
I know what I’d put my money on.
And her views are fucking hateful and stupid.
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Adults with empathy do their best to make the world better for the people around them instead of just telling everyone to deal with it.
Children do what others tell them to even if they disagree with it.
So you’re saying we should just turn the children of all conservatives queer? Alright, bring in the cat girls, 196 memes and let’s pounce!
Joking aside, there’s two archetypes of conservative:
- The Xenofobe, who is afraid of a changing world and that fear is strengthened by anything they experience as threatening to their image of how the world works. These people are more likely to warm to LGBTQIA+ people if they learn they’re not so different, and everyone is just trying to exist, be themselves and love who they love. There is no agenda for taking over the world.
- The Cultist. These people are beyond saving and generally consist of the hardcore christofascist bible belt inbred morons that are generally dumb as fuck, but loud as hell. They are indoctrinated by their own bubble of conspiracy theorists to the point where they are firmly dug into their own story and nothing will change their views.
It is not worth fighting either group with animosity, condemnation or attacks, as they are more than capable of spinning the story their side and reinforcing their ideas that queers are somehow threatening.
But at least we should be capable of showing the xenofobes that there is no monster in that closet (pun intended), or under their beds.
As for Rowling, she is likely part of the cultist group, which means we’re going to have issues. Her status as a celebrity and her wealth further isolates her from the rest of society, which is a real problem because that makes you able to opt out of confrontation with reality. She can just stategically isolate herself from ever coming into contact and having a real human interaction with the people she’s having all these misguided ideas about.
I think everyone should be made more aware of the damage that social bubbles cause to society. Whether it’s conservative communities, religious indoctrination, closed internet discussion groups or just the wealthy and famous distancing themselves from society (which is usually not by choice but because we treat them to a permanent dose of spotlights).
I wonder if you have read/heard the things Rowling has actually said about trans issues.
I also find it ironic that you liken her to a chrisofachist, when in the early 00s she was basically crucified by those people.
I certainly don’t agree with everything she has said. But some of her points are genuine “maybe this is something that deserves conversation and contemplating”, which are immediately construed as transphobic or hateful by many people who haven’t personally read/heard what she said. People jump to screaming online instead of trying to refute her points.
Again, I do NOT agree with her on many, many things!
I thought it was pretty well known that the Nazi party destroyed the first thing we would consider a Trans hospital?
She should have done a tiny bit of googling.
Third result on Google was the right wiki page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_für_Sexualwissenschaft
Iirc, one of the most famous pictures of a book burning was right outside that hospital, and the books came from inside it.
Non gender conforming people were the first group they came after.
It was news to me and I feel I have a fairly decent understanding of nazi atrocities, but I also wouldn’t be confident in denying it without first researching.
The vast majority of people dont know this. Its an obscure fact that people share regularly in forums like Lemmy, but are not part of any mainstream discussion of the holocaust.
Trade unions and lgbt clubs were attacked within the first three months after Hitler became the Chancellor. Already in the first month trade union offices and lgbt clubs were destroyed by the SA and people were sent to camps.
Yes. And also it should be known that this isnt part of the Holocaust. The Holocaust is the genocide against Jews. But the Nazis persecuted lots of groups of people, and committed all kinds of crimes against humanity.
Not every heinous Nazi crime is “the Holocaust”. But it’s just as awful and denying it should lead to a social ban against the denier.
I was going to argue that that was a slightly reductive statement because of all the other groups that the Nazis genocided, but I looked it up and you are correct.
It’s almost like conservatives are vile, grotesque garbage-based life forms who thrive on the misery and death of others.
Conservatism is a plague long overdue for a cure.
It’s almost like you were posting this in a space full of people who will agree with you just cause you are of the same bunch.
Absolutely.
The person above apparently posts here specifically because they don’t agree with us based on their responses in this thread. So I guess they don’t understand why people would want to be around those they are in agreement with.
It’s sad that she’s likely repressing a LOT of gender dysphoria, but just doubles down on the bigotry and hate. Fuck JK Umbridge.
All direct quotes:
I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.
As I didn’t have a realistic possibility of becoming a man back in the 1980s, it had to be books and music that got me through.
I remember how mentally sexless I felt in youth.
Fortunately for me, I found my own sense of otherness, and my ambivalence about being a woman…
Oh yikes. Yikes yikes yikes. I would feel bad for her* if she* wasn’t such a petty evil person.
Is it normal to feel mentally sexful? Asking for a friend.
Yeah, mentally I feel my assigned gender at birth which ironically is why I can see how people maybe wouldn’t.
Weird. I feel kind of ambivalent, but not dysphoric or anything. Like I could just as easily have been born into a different body and felt no worse off.
Same, its like such a nonpart of my identity?
I went through a bi panic in college and did a bunch of thought experiments with myself, mainly because I want getting action from either gender to try and test that out.
Anything your brains do that do not cause harm to you or others is just fine.
Once I found out that Harry Potter glorified the British class system by having it take place at an elite private school where people less privileged than them are looked down upon and even called names I was already turned off… but once I got to the obviously antisemitic goblins, I was done.
I wish it wasn’t so damn popular.
Edit: I realize this article isn’t about antisemitism. This is just another example of Rowling’s bigotry.
I don’t care about HP, but it’s just a standard fairy tale. I read the books to my kids. Stories about knights, kings, princesses, super heroes…pretty much any story in which a normal person can fantasize about being someone who has much more power than they do, have been the stock-in-trade for story-tellers forever. Harry Potter lives a terrible life with his abusive relatives until he gets whisked off to a fancy private school where, it turns out, he is pretty special. Does it glorify the British class system? Sure, in some ways. But, it also undermines it insofar as Harry’s friends are mostly from the lower classes, and the villains are mostly “old money” and those who are obsessed with genetic purity. Also, the entrenched authorities like the Ministry of Magic are shown in a rather poor light, with their dementors, cruel bureaucrats, and insanity-inducing prisons. Hermione is meant to symbolize someone who got to Hogwart’s based on ability, not birth or connections. So, the story is at least partially about the transformation of the old structures of power from being based on money and birth to being based on ability. It shows British power structures in transition, I would say. What do you think?
That may very well be so. I did not get that impression from the first book, but, as I said, it was the only book I read and maybe it was clarified in the sequels.
By the way, my father was a similarly privileged to go to a prestigious British school on scholarship despite coming from a poor background and had nothing but bad things to say about it, so that does color my judgment a little.
That explains it. Each book gets progressively darker. The first book was written for 11 year olds, if I recall correctly. It doesn’t really get into politics. The subsequent books expose the corruption of the class system and the horrifying complicity of the bureaucracy.
And at the end the main characters shut up and perpetuate the system
I love liberals
I don’t understand why you are criticizing liberals here. Would you prefer illiberalism? Or are you an armchair revolutionary?
End of history looking ass thinking the only two political positions are lukewarm defense of the current system and nazis
What? That isn’t even a sentence.
Hogwarts is not elite. Anyone can enrol if they have magical ability. It’s addressed in a later book that attendance is not mandatory but nearly every witch and wizard in Britain is educated there. It’s just a school that doesn’t even have an admittance exam.
if they have magical ability
That’s exactly what makes it elite. There’s automatically a class system.
A genetics-based one, no less
I’m sorry I don’t understand what you mean, do you want non magical people to attend a magical school?
The fact that magic is only for some, that’s the elitist part. There are some people that are inherently better than others
They could just fail every class for 8 years and be passed to the next anyway.
No different then public school system st the end of the day.
I’m sorry I don’t understand what you mean, do you want non magical people to attend a magical school?
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Why did you decide to insult me? Did I insult you? Did I make a personal attack?
And I guess I’m not part of “all you guys” because I always thought that about the Ferengi.
Also, what did I want to remove and from where? Please show where I said I wanted to remove something.
As far as the goblins not being antisemitic-
https://www.popdust.com/gringotts-warner-bros-2627451691.html
Not just her books, even the games based on them-
https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/hogwarts-legacy-antisemitism-goblins-horn/
Did she do it intending to be antisemitic? I don’t know, but it hardly matters.
Maybe I have the intelligence of a brick, but at least I don’t tell lies about people like you did about me.
You’ve made a personal attack against the author of one book I consider not terribly bad.
As far as the goblins not being antisemitic-
Somebody wrote an article and I’m supposed to assume that person is right and I’m wrong?
I’ll quote the title seen even in the link you provided - “HP goblins echo Jewish caricatures”. Have you considered even once that Jewish caricatures too did echo something aesthetically familiar? Or that the folklore I’m talking about grew intertwined with antisemitic beliefs?
Medieval-style fairy-tales always touch this subject.
And then this
Did she do it intending to be antisemitic? I don’t know, but it hardly matters.
and this
Maybe I have the intelligence of a brick,
form a syllogism.
Yes, it definitely matters, because to get rid of each and every antisemitic or similar (“middleman minority” etc) stereotype manifesting itself unintentionally you’d simply have to burn European-cultured countries with nukes and start from scratch.
Also I’m Jewish.
Sorry… you’re insulting me because I besmirched J. K. Rowling’s honor? Are you her great protector?
And I don’t care if you’re Jewish.
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Now you’re lying about not insulting me:
You seem as intelligent as people who’d want to remove Nazis from movies about WWII (actually I’m not sure if I’ve met such specimen).
If you are not a brick or just as intelligent, you’d see that.
Stating a fact is not an insult
my opinion weighs more than yours.
No it doesn’t. Anyone can claim to be anything they want on the Internet.
Including my opinion weighing more.
Why does your opinion weigh more?
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Imagine going this far out on a limb over a series of children’s books.
Nah, that’s not the reason. I just really don’t like people partaking in collective condemnation. They are worthless cowards.
There’s a Star of David in the middle of the floor of the “Goblin Bank”
illuminati confirmed
It was filmed in a real building built when the association between this symbol and Judaism wasn’t yet a thing. So it’s not a Star of David.
I hope (not really) you are aware that it’s not historically a Jewish symbol, it’s been used as widely as, eh, a few other famous ornaments, and relatively recently became a symbol of secular Jewish identity and Zionism, and then Judaism too.
Nope
It is an interesting question, is she denying this because she hates jews or because she hates trans
Why not both?
Because we have substantially more evidence for one than the other.
Didn’t she name the only black character Shacklebolt? Also, Cho Chang is the only Asian?
The Irish character kept blowing things up…
Ah yes, Seamus
Wait a minute, that’s right !! haha
Kingsley Shacklebolt…
What’s with the name Shacklebolt ?
A piece of shit said a shitty thing. No need to dwell on it.
I think it’s important she’s called out. Her works are deep in the hearts of 3 generations and her shitty takes need to be addressed so those fans don’t make the same choices.
Just like Bill Cosby, its important for everyone to know how much a skeezebag he is because he shaped the lives of so many people
I just saw a teacher dunk on a kid in a tiktok video because he couldn’t explain why/how JK Rowling is a terf. Only for it to end with “I guess I was wrong, maybe she isn’t bad for the Trans community” in no part of that video did the teacher let his own beliefs be challenged or allow the kid to research to support his own position.
So yeah… this stuff can be important.
Tiktok ‘debates’ are usually scripted propaganda or just recorded harassment.
I mean I guess that’s everywhere on the internet now. Everyone thinks in soundbites and consider thought terminating cliches as legitimate discourse.
I’m not sure how the teacher could hold their position considering the knee high stack of rancid terf tweets she has put out THAT ARE STILL UP.
The type of Holocaust denial they’re suggesting she’s doing wouldn’t make her antisemitic, because she’s not denying its impact on the Jewish people. It just makes her more transphobic, which we already knew.
Lotta dipshits in the comments here, block button is working extra today.
Fuck J.K. Rowling. Femcel. Lol
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Naturally when people called her out for being wrong she quickly set up a strawman to keep herself from having to admit any ignorance or fault. What a stupid hill she has chosen to die on, she could have been universally beloved if she just kept her shitty views to herself.
Did we just discover the TERF to Nazi pipeline?
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I am pretty sure that’s not the right definition. Holocaust denial isn’t about denying the impact of the holocaust had on the victims and the survivors. It’s about denying the scale and planned nature of the genocide.
JK Rowling doesn’t deny the holocaust. She’s not even denying that trans people were targeted, she is denying that they were among the first victims of the nazis. And while denying that they were targeted is wrong, it’s not denying the holocaust happened.
It’s about denying the scale and planned nature of the genocide.
That’s just an angle that anti-semites use to discredit the Holocaust historians. Does it matter that it was 6 million? Could have been 1 million for all I care, but people who already don’t like Jews will get pedantic about the EXACT number before explaining that number is wrong because (((they))) control the media and none of it happened. It’s a dog whistle.
Not according to Wikipedia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
Holocaust denial is an antisemitic conspiracy theory[1][2] that asserts that the Nazi genocide of Jews, known as the Holocaust, is a fabrication or exaggeration.[3][4][5] Holocaust denial involves making one or more of the following false claims:[6][7][8]
Nazi Germany’s “Final Solution” was aimed only at deporting Jews from the territory of the Third Reich and did not include their extermination. Nazi authorities did not use extermination camps and gas chambers for the mass murder of Jews. The actual number of Jews murdered is significantly lower than the accepted figure of approximately six million. The Holocaust is a hoax perpetrated by the Allies, Jews, or the Soviet Union.[4][9]
It’s Wiki. It’s not terribly useful for controversial topics. Why don’t you call the Holocaust Museum tomorrow and ask them.
lol
I had a look at the homepage of the holocaust museum. They differentiate between soft and hard holocaust denial, i.e. the genocide of the Jews wasn’t planned and didn’t happen at this scale, and the the genocide of the Jews didn’t happen, respectively.
That is, by the way, in line with Wikipedia states. I don’t expect you to actually walk away and learn something of course, but on the off chance that you’ll reflect on this I’d say: start opening your mind to the possibility that you are wrong.
