For anyone curious, this bill is fighting against the conservative SCOTUS decision that basically said fossil fuel and other companies don’t have to listen to the EPA or follow environmental regulations if the company has a “reasonable”(undefined) argument against said regulation.
So this law should get made. Get made good.
Regulations are “unconstitutional”? Hmmmmmmm 🤔 Is SCOTUS bound by anything? Seems like they can rule however they like.
I think their argument is more that the agencies aren’t allowed to be the ones to say how a law is applied as far as regulations go. If a regulation is vague enough the EPA isn’t allowed to clarify anymore, it needs to go to a (more than likely rubber stamp) court where the judges decide, instead of, you know, anyone who would actually have expertise… It’s legally “reasonable” but practically insane.
Why aren’t the bodies allowed to say how relevant laws are applied? Isn’t the whole point behind regulatory bodies that the government will grant regulators certain powers with legislation?
I’m not a legal expert, but in Australia at least there are a bunch of regulators that work to legislation, but they totally come up with extra clarifications and rules themselves within the powers they’ve been granted, and you are obligated to follow those rules.
For example: the fair work commission in Australia sets the minimum wage every year, no legislation required. Employers can’t just decide they’re unreasonable and not follow them, unless they want to be taken to court (or go to jail, in certain states like Victoria).
Now, I have no idea what the laws are that give the US EPA their powers, but either SCOTUS is totally out of line here, or the legislation sucks.
The (bullshit) scotus argument is that congress can’t grant decision powers to federal agencies cause hurrdurr constitution.
Basically, for ~40 years we’ve run on a SCOTUS decision referred to as the “Chevron Decision.” What that did is direct federal courts to defer to agencies on interpretations of relevant laws and statutes, because federal courts were being bogged down by every. little. bit. of. minutiae. around the practical application of a bills intention.“Agency says brown, interested party says black, BOOM LAWSUIT” is an exaggeration but not by much. Instead, Chevron gives agencies the room for experts in the field to draft appropriate regulations etc in service of congress’ bills. “Agency says brown, interested party says black, well too bad the experts say brown is the best choice.” Can’t tie them up in court over everything.
Now, with Chevron overturned, Republicans can start tying everything they dont like up in court again. Plus, with the hyper conservative activist SCOTUS judges, now they can run any regulation or policy straight up the appeal ladder to have them all ruled “unconstitutional” with only the occasional less important burner case turned down in a halfass attempt to look “impartial”
Thanks for the explanation! And boy, does that sound broken.
Breaking the system is the goal of the federalist society (which selected them recent conservative group of judges in the SCOTUS, and many lower courts).
Exactly, it allowed Congress to get a say, but they had to override it.
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SCOTUS is unchecked by the rest of the federal government. The only thing that would limit their power is a constitutional amendment, which requires 38 states to individually ratify it at the level of their state governments, not their federal congresspeople.
There is literally no way for congress to affect the supreme court once it has 9 justices, or contradict its rulings on laws they call “unconstitutional”, short of impeaching supreme court justices or packing the court with more than 9 justices. Once enough of the court is full of fascists or enablers, it’s EXTREMELY hard to escape fascism without a constitutional convention.
You could instruct the federal agencies to ignore court rulings, effectively undoing Marbury vrs Madison.
That’s a constitutional crisis, but what is the court gonna do? Call the FBI? Send in the military?
You can ask the Cherokee people what the court does with an uncooperative federal government, but you won’t find any in Georgia.
Maybe that’s just fascism with our side in charge though.
Yeah unfortunately once fascism sets in there’s literally no way to get rid of it without using more fascism or violence. And considering that fascism necessarily requires the threat of violence, that previous statement can be simplified to “Fascism can only be defeated with violence”
Is SCOTUS bound by anything?
flipping open my Lockean theory of self-governance
Strictly speaking, the power of government is in its ability to achieve (relatively) peaceful compliance. The SCOTUS decision creates an opportunity for individuals to behave in defiance of the written law with a certain fearlessness. A President can go full Andrew Jackson and tell the judges to enforce that decision, but he’s still got to command a bureaucracy full of people who can be swayed in the other direction.
What happens to a regulation that nobody is willing to enforce? What happens to a federal regulation that runs afoul of state law, in a district where municipal/state law enforcement will enthusiastically arrest and local DAs prosecute a federal agent?
I would say that’s the real power of the SCOTUS. Opening the legal door for disobedience and negligence at the federal level, while state-level revolt occurs downstream.
In theory that was supposed to be the strength of SCOTUS, that being secure in their employment for life (or until retirement), they had no incentive to judge along party lines for fear of future prospects. However, we’ve seen that judges can still be both very partisan and entirely unqualified and we can now do nothing to remove them. Turns out bribery and threats still work on them
The Loper Bright ruling was that when taken on appeal that the courts no longer have to accept a reasonable agency interpretation over a reasonable (or more reasonable) interpretation by the other party.
And the rulings isn’t just for the EPA but all other federal agencies like the IRS, ICE, and the FDA. This bill is a double edged sword depending on who has the executive seat.
There’s at least a possibility of the executive having enough expertise to regulate reasonably. The courts don’t have the resources, but they’ve grabbed that power to themselves.
I mean that power was there since article 3 got drafted, and reaffirmed by the text of the APA.
The issue is the legislature not being able to pass laws due to the filibuster. This has lead to agencies being forced to take up their own interpretations to adapt language beyond it’s original meaning to attempt to complete their goals, like w/ the Loper Bright case.
to adapt language beyond it’s original meaning
If the executive’s rules leading to Loper Bright were not reasonable, the court wouldn’t have had a reason to overturn Chevron in order to decide against it.
Edit: the fact that court first wisely delegated the power to set regulatory rules doesn’t change the fact that they unwisely took it back.
I don’t think for the court it was an issue of making wise policy choices but of who had what authority, and what did the law say about it. The court simply didn’t have anything enabling them to delegate their powers in the Chevron case.
The separation of powers is core to the structure of our government, delegating powers onto other branches nullifies that. Hence the non delegation doctrine. Perhaps it [Chevron] may be good policy but it simply isn’t how our government is structured.
The court simply didn’t have anything enabling them to delegate their powers in the Chevron case.
They made up presidential immunity a few days later, then gave themselves control over it.
The court has a long tradition of deferring to the elected branches on matters of policy. This is based on the principal that voters should have a say. If a rule is reasonable under existing law, then changing it is properly the work of the legislature.
This bill is a double edged sword depending on who has the executive seat.
Not at all. It gives substantial power to the lower courts and strips it from the executive’s cabinet secretaries.
For real. The regulations are the “reasonable” standards. If you can’t meet the bare minimum you can fuck off.
Basically agencies were given power unchecked without passing any laws giving them that power. Supreme court decision was correct. Congress needs to get off their butts and get laws passed if they want them so bad, and stop relying on shaky historical precedents.
Kind of hard to pass bills when one political party is dedicated to nothing but corruption and obstruction but ok.
That’s fine, that’s why state and local governments exist, to implement what can’t be decided on nationally.
Yes, it is hard to pass bills that only half of congress wants. Again, the system working as intended.
I honestly agree with the decision in a vacuum, but in reality I can’t help but feel the decision was made very much with corporate interests in mind. Yeah congress should’ve gotten their ducks in a row long before now, but the real winner here is corporations, not constituents.
Can you imagine a full majority blue government again? Last time we got health care light, who knows what we might get a little of this time?
Maybe some of that freedom your nutjobs keep banging on about.
Make no mistake that small progress is still progress and given the amount of money spent on regression, don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
If given the choice of something better, never go for the other option because the first is not better enough
don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
This sentiment is way too rare. Personally I’m a fan of using “don’t let perfect be the enemy of good enough”
It needs to be selectively applied though. We should fight for perfection, but we shouldn’t avoid small gains in favor of large aspirations.
That’s what the saying means. It doesn’t mean perfect isn’t good. It means perfect is great, but don’t let it stop good.
just remember: “perfect” is a journey, not a destination. it something to strive for knowing full well that you’ll never get there because it’s impossible.
Oh yes, absolutely
don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
This sentiment is way too rare
Except literally every time someone on the left points out the Dem leadership habit of inching in the right direction while not doing much to stop their fascist counterparts from yarding if not miling in the opposite.
What little progress conservative Democrats DO graciously deign to bestow on the unwashed masses is the equivalent of getting a 2% raise in a year where your unavoidable expenses such as food, shelter, and medicine rose by double digits.
That’s not good. That’s insufficient.
So give us more Democrats and you’ll get more results. It’s a simple question of mathematics. We can’t pass laws unless you give us the numbers in Congress.
So give us more Democrats and you’ll get more results. It’s a simple question of mathematics
If they do their jobs well, they get rewarded with votes. It’s a simple question of not inverting the relationship between the public servants and the public.
We can’t pass laws unless you give us the numbers in Congress.
And people won’t vote for you if you pass bad laws and/or do nothing with the mandate you’re given. Which is what 90%+ of them do.
If they start actually helping people more, people will reward them. Giving them all they want in return for bad job performance isn’t the motivator to do better you seem to think it is.
If they do their jobs well, they get rewarded with votes. It’s a simple question of not inverting the relationship between the public servants and the public.
Hard disagree. The public is not a monolith. It does not know what it wants, because most people want mutually exclusive things.
[the public] does not know what it wants
Holy paternalistic condescension, Batman! 😬🤦
That’s not how it works. I’m not just saying that, I mean functionally, what you’re saying is impossible. We can’t make progress until we get the numbers in Congress, and you won’t give us the numbers in Congress until we make progress. So nothing ever gets done. Gridlock at best.
And people wonder why the Dems seem so ineffectual. Its because our voters are piss poor at understanding how our fucking government works. Vote first, and then get results. It’s literally impossible for it to happen the other way around. People who are not in Congress can’t pass laws. You have to get them into Congress first.
You can get results by going for things republicans also want. As in, negotiate with your counterparts on the hill.
Sometimes the way forward isn’t one of overpowering all opposition. Not everything is a blitzkrieg.
the Dems seem so ineffectual. Its because our voters
Classic victim blaming. “We’re doing a lousy job because of the people not trusting us in spite of doing a lousy job!” 🙄
Vote first, and then get results.
That hasn’t worked since 1978 at the very latest and it won’t suddenly start working now.
The problem isn’t that the average voter doesn’t help Democrats enough. The problem is that Democrats don’t help the average voter enough.
The reason for that problem isn’t a lack of mandate, it’s that the vast majority represent their big sum owner donors much more than the public at large. As shown by how the party fights anti-corporate Democrats much harder than they ever fight Republicans, even the fascists of today.
People who are not in Congress can’t pass law
And people who don’t prioritize the interests of the public don’t pass law that furthers the interest of the public over those that supply big legal bribes, no matter how many of them there are in Congress.
These are hyperbolic times.
The internet age has all but murdered nuance.
No, republican fear mongering, and their refusal to recognize facts has all but murdered nuance. You can’t have nuanced discussion because a significant portion of the populace have been delightfully gobbling up a buffet of lies. There is no nuance about reproductive healthcare when abortion is murder. There is no nuance about the electoral system when every election is rigged. There is no nuance about equality in law when the president is immune from all crimes. The Internet didn’t destroy nuance, certain people have been throwing nuance out the window as fast as possible because an educated and empowered populace weakens their grip on the wheel of power.
“Don’t let perfect be the enemy of better.”
“Don’t butcher things your parents taught you”
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the nutjobs will never get the freedom they want. they want freedom to step on others and freedom from accountability.
they do not have the same desires as you and i.
Yeah but this bill won’t become law
Make no mistake that small progress is still progress
That’s an argument I remember from under Obama. But the theory was that these small progressions would compound over time. In practice, the Dems don’t make progress, they inhibit it. Liberals draw in an enormous amount of labor and financial power to campaign, then immediately sell out to corporate interests. They pass stop-gap bills to splinter progressive movements into factions of haves and have-nots. Then they collapse in the face of a reactionary resurgence.
The reactionaries impose huge reversals of existing New Deal and Great Society programs. They engage in flagrant criminality without any form of censure. They prosecute wars to loot natural resources abroad. Then they ship domestic capital overseas to dilute labor power at home and swell the ranks of the underemployed. They lard us up with debts to the same plutocrats who put them in office and leave Democrats with the bill when they finally slink out of office. And they balloon the national security state to surveil, suppress, and murder protesters and dissidents in nascent left-wing movements.
The “small progress” is a ratchet. It isn’t progress at all. We’re regressing rapidly. The liberal party seems content to prevent any kind of contrary political pressure, while the conservative movement goes all-in on paramilitary fascism.
Go away.
It’s a bit disingenuous to say we had a full blue government. Technically we had it but our majority in the senate didn’t really exist due to false Dems like Manchin
Plus the filibuster requires 2/3, not a simple majority to get anything done.
But doesn’t need 2/3rds to remove, only majority. Which then gets back to the “pseudo” dems that appear anything it gets close to having progressive legislation passed
Removing the filibuster is a nuclear option that will ensure Republicans will be unable to be stopped next time they’re in power. It’s a stupid idea.
I disagree, republicans don’t let the filibuster stop them when they want to do something.
They can still pass their tax cuts because of reconciliation and they immediately changed the rules to lock in the supreme Court.
Classic example of Democrats pretending the other side has a respect for rules and tradition.
And we were able to pass Build Back Better with reconciliation. The filibuster hampers both sides, and removing it is a terrible, dangerous idea.
I actually disagree. Removing it is a democratic idea. We already have 2 houses of Congress which must agree to pass legislation and the president must sign it unless Congress can muster a supermajority.
Any voter has had 4 chances in the ballot box to represent their interest, we do not need to set artificially higher standards to prevent legislation from passing.
If voters sow the wind by electing lawmakers that support reckless or harmful policy, then voters should reap the whirlwind that results.
Manchin wasn’t even in the Senate yet. Lieberman was an independent that endorsed Romney 3 years later.
There were senators from Louisiana and Missouri in that majority.
Also Franken wasn’t seated until like June because of recounts and lawsuits. Ted Kennedy was on deaths door and passed away 2 months later. His replacement was seated a couple months after that and then Scott Brown won in fucking Massachusetts in January.
They ended up with something like 109 working days in which Democrats could override a Republican filibuster. They passed 2 major pieces of legislation. Dodd Frank and the ACA.
I miss the days when the arguments were whether we should have universal healthcare or whether we should force insurance companies to cover preexisting conditions. Arguments over whether we should have a democracy or not just aren’t the same…
I believe Harris was against universal Healthcare for all :-(
- As president, it won’t matter. She’ll sign anything her party gives her to sign, because there’s zero reason for her to pick a fight with congressional democrats.
- In 2019 she literally and specifically backed Medicare for All, so this claim is factually incorrect.
Harris healthcare plan in 2020 was to the left of Bidens, She called for Medicare for all. She dissagreed with Bernie about banning private insurance.
She was not against universal healthcare. I doubt she is now. If Dems sweep the house and somehow picked up 10 seats in the Senate (impossible) she might try to go for it.
It’s not impossible in 2026 for Dems to make big gains in the Senate, but it is very, very unlikely.
Can you imagine a full majority blue government again?
Easily. But when so many of the elected officials on Team Blue are as subservient to private business interests, plutocrats, and foreign state governments as their counterparts on Team Red, I’m not sure what good it’ll do.
100 Joe Manchins and Kristen Sinemas won’t do us any favors.
BoTh sIdEzZz
Bullshit and no one is buying it anymore.
Then why are you here?
If you don’t believe in electoral politics that’s fine. But you should be off organizing union drives, or mutual aid societies, or literally any other venue for democratic power.
Why would you care which corporate shill holds office?
Your presence here suggests that it does, in fact, matter who wins elections, or which team holds power.
Great, now do Citizens United, Trump v US, Roe and maybe try Dred Scott again but where corporations don’t have all the same rights as people and can’t be criminally prosecuted.
And reverse southern pacific vs santa clara and end corporate personhood
One step at a time bud.
If you try and do everything at once you get nothing done at all.
Unless you do everything at once with conflicting interests across different parts of “everything” and you get an omnibus bill, which is the only way to actually get anything done in congress nowadays (for some god-forsaken reason)
This is how black people end up counting as 3/5ths of a person.
Or if we don’t try to do everything at once or we do nothing, same exact outcome, nothing at all.
Nobody’s going to see any traction on any of this until something horrible and messy happens. We’re going to wait until most people won’t stand it anymore
Let’s fucking go!
The courts kind of already denying the authority of the legislature on this. These agencies were created and given authority by congress already.
Yeah, they’ve gotten to the point of saying the legislature cannot delegate it’s authority. If it stands it functionally makes modern government impossible. If Congress cannot delegate to the executive, and it cannot take on executive style decision like the Westminster system, the government just cannot function.
Let SCOTUS enforce it. Why anyone still listens to that nut job chorus is beyond me.
… Are we suddenly going to start fighting the supreme Court? Finally? Finally?
Approved.
At this point in time it isn’t enough. Republicans and the conservative justices will find whatever loopholes there are. They need to be advocating to change the role of the Supreme Court to an advisory agency only, where they have no decision-making powers.
The SCOTUS is necessary in a functioning system of checks and balances on power amongst the three branches of the federal government. The problem we have now is a court stacked with looney judges subverting the will of the people. We need a more effective means of maintaining balance in the court.
Have you never heard of the Court of Appeals?
Sure have. The SCOTUS takes up cases from the US Circuit Courts of Appeals. Appellate courts certainly serve their purpose, as district courts can and do get decisions wrong. But, the SCOTUS needs to be balanced enough to where one political viewpoint doesn’t dominate their decisions and subsequent precedents.
Failed civics?
I’m not sure they need loopholes. They’re perfectly fine with tossing out precedent and rehashing settled law. Next step is to just make shit up.
