The conversations are amazing

  • Sagittarii@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    There’s a bunch of Chinese posts asking if the stuff about school shootings, fires, homelessness are exaggerated propaganda only to be told otherwise. It’s both hilarious and sad.

    • ubergeek@lemmy.today
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      3 months ago

      People of the US and China are both unsure of what to believe about the other, because both are so propagandized lol

        • SmilingSolaris@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          You just made that up. You genuinely have no idea what the Chinese perception of the uyghur imprisonment is. In fact you’ve gone out of your way to call their prison system a “work camp”. I’m not even saying that it’s not a work camp. What I am saying is you wouldn’t call American prisons a work camp despite also being used for mass slave labor.

        • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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          3 months ago

          You don’t know what Chinese people do or don’t know. You only know what Western governments and Western corporate media tell you Chinese people do or don’t know.

          There’s nothing secret about what happened in Xinjiang. People are well aware of the terrorist attacks and of how the local and federal governments’ responded to them.

        • AnActOfCreation@programming.dev
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          2 months ago

          Thank goodness for the modlog! You are right on. Just because American propaganda is bad doesn’t mean Chinese isn’t bad too or that we have to defend it. Everyone should be held accountable.

      • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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        3 months ago

        Who told you that the people of China are propagandized, especially to hate other countries and peoples as much as the US does?

        • COASTER1921@lemmy.ml
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          3 months ago

          Their access to news is controlled and for some topics all available news is what we’d call propaganda. Particularly anything about Japan or the Taiwan issue. Most people I know there realize this to an extent but without any other information do still believe the core idea even if skeptical of details.

          But at the same time I’d argue there’s no such thing as a population that’s not propagandized. In the US the big news corporations only will present views favorable to their profitability and continued growth. Sure they disagree with eachother, but it’s still always a pro-business view. State news from Russia is (I’d argue rightly) not available on many US platforms to discourage it’s influence for example.

          • FreakinSteve@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            The US does NOT have a free press and is not at all interested in freedom and free speech. Notice that there are no socialists or leftists of any kind on any news channel or in political leadership positions.

            • kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              This is just untrue. There is plenty of legal press in the US of any persuasion, from anarchist to fascist.

              The major US news outlets are in bed with capitalists because that’s where the money is, but there are lots of smaller outlets with other views. In China all news outlets kowtow to the government because anything else is illegal.

              • Eatspancakes84@lemmy.world
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                2 months ago

                Mostly agree with this take. I just wanted to add some nuance. I was talking to a friend about Gaza/Israel-protests in my country and said that the media doesn’t show everything. He then told a story about the protests that was supposedly not covered in the media. However, I had literally just read about that story in my newspaper.

                Point is, there is some freedom of press (at least in my country) and the press is fairly pluralistic. However, to really find out what’s going on you need to read i.) several sources, and ii.) continue to focus on events after journalists took the effort to dig down. That’s a big ask for many people. And the stories that come out first tend to be most biased.

                • kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  2 months ago

                  the stories that come out first tend to be most biased

                  I honestly think the concept of news is actually harmful, because it’s about reporting what happened, not about making the audience understand the subject. It puts a premium on getting the report out as quickly as possible, and favours the most shocking events and interpretations that draw people’s attention.

                  Ultimately most news are “empty calories” of information that mostly give an illusion of knowledge. “Explosion in Herptown, dozens wounded” does not meaningfully increase your understanding of the world, it mostly just makes you scared. It will take weeks until the cause and consequences of the explosion can be fully understood, and a lot of research to put that into perspective.

              • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                2 months ago

                In China all news outlets kowtow to the government because anything else is illegal.

                This is what our media tell us about their media. In every country the media kowtow to the government to some extent, but I’m not sure to exactly what extent they actually do in China, and I’m not going to take our media’s word for what that extent is.

                • kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  2 months ago

                  If you do not know the extent of pressure asserted on Chinese media that is willful ignorance.

                  Of course “our media” (whatever you mean by that) is the only media that can report on it as Chinese media is heavily censored.

                  If you want to know the extent the information easy to find.

                  Here’s some of what Reporters Without Borders have to say

                  “The People’s Republic of China (PRC) is the world’s largest prison for journalists, and its regime conducts a campaign of repression against journalism and the right to information worldwide.”

                  “The Propaganda Department of the Chinese Communist Party sends a detailed notice to all media every day that includes editorial guidelines and censored topics.”

                  “Independent journalists and bloggers who dare to report “sensitive” information are often placed under surveillance, harassed, detained, and, in some cases, tortured.”

                  Source: https://rsf.org/en/country/china

                  This is from The Committee to Protect Journalists

                  “China has long ranked as one of the world’s worst jailers of journalists. Censorship makes the exact number of journalists jailed there notoriously difficult to determine, but Beijing’s media crackdown has widened in recent years”

                  Source: https://cpj.org/reports/2024/01/2023-prison-census-jailed-journalist-numbers-near-record-high-israel-imprisonments-spike/

                  Here’s Amnesty International

                  “Chinese authorities continued to severely curtail rights to freedoms of expression, association and peaceful assembly, including through the abusive application of laws often under the pretext of preserving national security.”

                  Source: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/asia-and-the-pacific/east-asia/china/report-china/

          • 000999@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            2 months ago

            Ofc there is no such thing as an un-propagandized country. There are lobbyists and think tanks everywhere

        • vatlark@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          Woah I never recognized your username in the wild before. Thanks for giving us Lemmy. Huge fan.

            • ubergeek@lemmy.today
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              3 months ago

              You mean how both China, and the US propagandize their citizens? Yeah, I’m fully aware of that already. All states will do it, as a system of control over the working class, in order to continue to exploit them.

              I mean, if controlling the people wasn’t the goal, whats the purpose of the oppression of a state?

    • captainlezbian@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      I’m reminded of that ex Soviet joke about how they always knew the government was lying about their own countries but were shocked to learn it was telling the truth about america

  • caboose2006@lemm.ee
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    3 months ago

    Eh, there’s truth and lies on both sides. Coming from someone that lived in china for 4 years and was able to engage with Chinese primary news sources. But basic healthcare in china is faster and cheaper, but then again I went to get a wart removed and they prescribed me acorn paste that accelerated the growth of the wart. So win some lose some.

    • derpgon@programming.dev
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      3 months ago

      Everyone pretending Europe doesn’t exist? Most countries have most healthcare for “free” (mandatory healthcare taxes).

      • Pili@lemmy.ml
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        3 months ago

        Eh… as someone living in western Europe, I can’t say it’s free. I would say that it’s subsidized at most. We still have to pay a part of our healthcare, we can get a private health insurance to complete the government coverage, but it’s still not enough to cover all of it.

        Mental health isn’t covered at all, ophtalmology barely (still gotta pay 200€ for a pair of glasses, after public + private coverage), dental only the very basic is covered…

        • unwarlikeExtortion@lemmy.ml
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          3 months ago

          I got my lenses for a realistic amount (~8€), but the frames are (were) expensive af. That’s mostly on Luxottica (and the state not reigning her in).

          Although, that was years ago, way before “covid-induced” inflation, and the healthcare system is being dismantled bit-by-bit for a very long time, so I don’t doubt lenses got at least 3-5x more expensive in the meantime.

          • accideath@lemmy.world
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            2 months ago

            The glasses part sounds similar to Germany. I‘m pretty near sighted (-4.25-ish diopters) and without glasses I‘m more or less useless. Can’t focus on things beyond like 20cm from my face. Can’t read shit that isn’t either that close or ginormous.

            According to German public insurance, I’m not blind enough for them to subsidize my glasses, let alone pay for them outright.

            To be fair, you can get glasses somewhat cheaply for sub 100€ if you’re not too picky about frames or high quality lenses with good coating but still. At least that much should be covered by insurance at the point where you aren’t allowed to operate a vehicle without glasses anymore, imo.

            Also, I don’t wanna shit on German public insurance too much because so far I’ve never had to pay a penny for any doctor’s appointment and necessary medications have been free as well. Also, mental health is covered, at least when it’s deemed necessary aka you‘ve been diagnosed with a mental illness, so maybe the commenter above isn’t from here.

        • ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝@sopuli.xyz
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          2 months ago

          It’s very heterogenous. I’ve lived in a few countries in the EU, the NL for example gets you even mental health for 150 a month for the whole deal. And sick leave is unlimited and self-reporting.

      • caboose2006@lemm.ee
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        3 months ago

        Not a single hospital I went to in that country had hand soap in the bathrooms, to give you an idea about the level of hygiene. But going for my yearly sinus infection was a breeze and I got antibiotics. Not a zpack but it cleared up the infection. And no appointments necessary. Breeze in and breeze out an hour later with what you need. And dirt dirt cheap, and on my visa I didn’t pay into the national health care system, so my cost was 100% out of pocket.

    • WalnutLum@lemmy.ml
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      3 months ago

      Trying to dodge Chinese traditional medicine in Asian countries when you go to the doctor is such a pain in the ass.

      I had to go to three different Japanese doctors before they would give me something other than herbal powder.

      • caboose2006@lemm.ee
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        2 months ago

        I had a colleague who had been a nurse and I’d show my prescriptions and ask “BS or actual medicine” and she’d tell me. I just started asking her first and she’d type out what I need before I went to the doctor.

  • Jo Miran@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    Circle jerking about China is as ridiculous as circle jerking about the US. We’ve been here before with US vs USSR, but this time everyone has a megaphone and an IQ that can be measured with a ruler.

    • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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      3 months ago

      You keep on coping there little buddy. What’s happening is that regular people from both countries are now talking directly to each other, and finding out what life is actually like.

      • ThirdConsul@lemmy.ml
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        3 months ago

        Uhhh, not exactly regular people. From what I’ve seen from the Rednote, at least my feed is wealthy upper-middle or upper class, while the Americans are from low to middle class.

        • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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          3 months ago

          Lack of will on the part of Americans to engage on Chinese platforms like Xiaohongshu. The looming TikTok ban is what pushed people over the edge.

            • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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              3 months ago

              TikTok is a Chinese built platform, but it’s built strictly for users outside of China. The Chinese version of TikTok is Douyin. You could’ve googled this yourself in the time it took you to write this comment.

              • gubblebumbum@lemm.ee
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                3 months ago

                Why? Tiktok is availabe in multiple countries with completely different language, culture and laws so why not China? Why have a different version of the app specifically for china?

    • unwarlikeExtortion@lemmy.ml
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      Sorry for being pedantic, but those foldable work rulers are exactly 2 m long (at least in MetricLandia), which is, incidentally, the span of IQ values (0-200).

      So yeah, it literally can be mapped one-to-one to a (common type of) ruler.

      A photo of an IQ ruler

  • ganymede@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    wow the level of cope in this thread (thankfully not that many tho) arguing over stats - which are probably made up anyway.

    some people can’t handle that most humans just wanna be friends regardless of gov politics bs

    • renzev@lemmy.world
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      some people can’t handle that most humans just wanna be friends regardless of gov politics bs

      Yes exactly. There are lots of internet weirdos trying to spread culture war nonsense, but if you actually go outside every once in a while, you realize that most people just aren’t like that. I work in a restaurant that has a lot of ukrainian and russian visitors (migrants). At one point, a large group of russians came in for a birthday party, and they asked the owner to put on a playlist of russian music. Like, really cheesy russian pop. After some time, a girl from a smaller table of ukrainians calls me over and complains about the music. I relay it to the owner, and he asks them what they would rather listen to instead. They tell him, and he adds their songs on the queue. The rest of the evening was spent playing and dancing to russian and ukrainian and armenian songs (the owner is armenian, and there were some armenian guests too) and the atmosphere was just generally very chill. Not a single fuck was given about politics that evening.

      • Natanox@discuss.tchncs.de
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        2 months ago

        Now if we could just get rid of all those power-hungry dicks who keep poisoning the human spirit, let it be with Capitalism, Maoism, Neoliberalism and whatnot…

        Thing is, the concern about RedNote is completely valid. Even if you strip away any overarching US propaganda or whatever, we know that the CCP does really, really shitty things as well and take heavy, manipulative influence (yes yes, the US and its defacto Feudal Lords owning Meta etc. do so too).

        I’m just angry people won’t take their time to look into this whole topic and go with more propaganda-resistant, federated alternatives. Not perfect, but better than a centralized service that can be influenced by either China or the US. Or Russia… or literally anyone. So that we can, in the end, just dance to some nice human music.

    • 3DMVR@lemm.ee
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      3 months ago

      yep most genuinely don’t care, people just hate to be a part of something lol

    • LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      2 months ago

      They could, but they dont want to.

      The ban discussion originated during the 2020 election when Trump didn’t like the information being spread there as he thought it aligned more with left wing policies. So he wanted it banned. People kept pushing the “it’s bad for kids” bullshit to keep it rolling until it finally went into effect. The Democrats didn’t try to stop it, and the people voted back in the person who wanted it banned. So effectively, they did vote for it in a way.

      • MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        Trump wanted the ban when he was in office, Biden actually did the ban when he was in office.

        Who could I have voted for to keep it from being banned?

        • LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 months ago

          Votes:

          R- 186 FOR 25 AGAINST

          D- 174 FOR 33 AGAINST

          A veto is over road by 2/3 vote in Congress… Meaning NO president could have vetod it. So yes I place it on the person who started the process and all of those who voted for it in the house/ Senate.

          Clearly meaning that Biden did not “do the ban” But don’t let facts get in the way of a good story

          • MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml
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            2 months ago

            Don’t change the subject, since the ban discussion originated in 2020 who could I have voted for to stop it from happening?

            Everyone on my ballot, both republican and democrat all support the ban

            • LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              2 months ago

              Change the subject? You just said Biden could have vetod it and I gave you the facts that he could not have done shit about it. What mental gymnastics is that shit. Also congress who made it impossible to override is voted in every 2 years. So being that there have been 2 votes for Congress since 2020 that you ask of, you could have voted to replace the entire house twice since then.

              • MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml
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                you could have voted to replace the entire house twice since then.

                Replace with who? Everyone on my ballot was for the ban

                (edit: also I never said Biden could have vetoed it, I just said that he did the ban, because he signed it and has been publicly in favor of it)

                • LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  2 months ago

                  Everyone on your ballot was for the ban and they were people trying to represent you. Either that means you have an opinion differing from the majority of the population in your area, or the people in your area need to find new candidates. I know in my area I am vastly different than what the majority wants. Shit, every person at my work wanted the ban. Coworker was yelling about how much he hates anyone against Trump and that he’s glad they are banning Tik Tok. He listens to far right propaganda on the radio daily that’s anti trans, anti immigrants, and I hear them claiming that all of the positions he is filling are their by merit, and that none of the positions Democrats fill are their by merit, just sponsorship. It’s a broken 2 party system. (Yes, The broken part was redundant)

                  That’s how democracy works though, either you agree with the majority, tolerate the majority opinion, or you have to work to change the majority opinion, or leave.

                  I think what many of us are overlooking is that the representatives on average are almost 60, over 60 in the Senate. 60 years olds in average don’t care what 20 year olds want, they think they know what’s best for the 20 year olds future, applying information that may have been valid 30 years ago. Their kids are older than 20, and they already disagree with their opinions.

                  We need to get the average Congress member age down to 40, senators 45 and force all members older than 65 to retire and take on advisory roles only. A 65 year old does not remember working paycheck to paycheck and what the struggles of everyday Americans are. They only care about how to grow their investments. If their car breaks down, they have enough money to get another, rent a car until its fixed, or simply schedule rides without fear of true disaster. The percentage of Americans that if their car breaks down will lose their jobs, apartments, not be able to afford food, and become homeless which is becoming illegal as well is increasing day after day.

                  The majority of Americans can not simply take a bus to work, nor walk there. A new car is outrageously out of reach for many people, and used car prices aren’t cheap either.

                  I wanted to join a rugby team to get more exercise and get in better shape. The sole reason I decided not to was because if I get injured, say break an arm… I would lose my job. And that’s before I say I couldn’t afford the medical bills to go to the doctor anyways.

                  A 60+ year old Congress member will just call the youth overweight and lazy… but shit. At 35 I know ive worked harder than many I know, but the risk aversion I take to avoid ruin is real. There is no community pool around here, I could never afford one of my own. No sidewalks, and there will be ice everywhere for another month or so… so I’m not going to try bike riding and go over ice on 2 wheels. I should be trying to find more hiking trails… that’s about all I might be able to find that is risk adverse exercise around here.

                  I get what you mean about the candidates for Congress, it seems they aren’t any great ones. We need to figure out a way to change that.

  • ☂️-@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    imagine making social media so bad your own citizens actively procure your biggest rival’s networks.

    • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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      3 months ago

      I think there’s a simple desire to move to pastures new. “Use Instagrmam or Youtube Shorts or Snapchat” No, we’ve been there and done that.

    • मुक्त@lemmy.ml
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      3 months ago

      Imagine allowing citizens to be so free that they can go to your biggest rival’s social media to read narratives favouring them, get influenced by rival propaganda, and then shit you on your percieved weak points.

        • मुक्त@lemmy.ml
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          3 months ago

          Patritoism?
          I suppose it is easy to be patriotic to a state which hides even publicly known events from its plebs.

          Try to get opinion of the Chinese on RedNote about Uyguirs and Teinman Square. I’ll wait.

          • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
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            3 months ago

            Tiananmen square is one of the most popular places in China, it’d be like saying Times square in new york city. You’re referring to what they call the june 4th incident, and you can absolutely talk about it on chinese social media.

            • मुक्त@lemmy.ml
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              That’s actually a cool website. Thanks.
              EDIT : Apparently linked by the other commenter, but your work. Thanks.

          • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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            Lol, that’s the worst attempts at spelling Tienanmen Square and Uyghurs I’ve seen yet, and I’ve seen a lot.

          • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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            3 months ago

            What’s a “secret” are not those events, but the garbage that propagandized Westerners believe about those events.

            So you’re right, the “genocide” is a “secret,” and the “massacre” is a “secret.”

          • ☂️-@lemmy.ml
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            dont the uyghur thing get proven false time and time again?

            videos and photos inevitably leak of shit like this but theres nothing credible to support a genocide happening in china… why do people believe this?

      • Saleh@feddit.org
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        How does the US ban on TikTok thatbmakes people switch to rednote now fit this description?

    • Saleh@feddit.org
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      3 months ago

      My people are now listening to your pop music and wear your blue jeans eating your noodles and use your social media apps.

    • DarkSpectrum@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      I like how one person said they don’t use child labour because they are inefficient. If they were efficient though …

        • micka190@lemmy.world
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          Honestly, I don’t even believe it’s inefficient. There’s plenty of documented/recorded evidence of child labor around the world. Sometimes, all you really need is a pair of hands, and kids are physically capable of doing it. Countries with shitty labor laws are ripe with child labor abuse.

      • ℍ𝕂-𝟞𝟝@sopuli.xyz
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        2 months ago

        TBH I expect it to be the same as everywhere where there are a lot of people with imperfect oversight.

        There is going to be some children working just like in the southern US.

    • Valmond@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      You believe the rest lol? I mean it can be true but its just made up internet memes.

  • passiveaggressivesonar@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Few things blew my mind even though I’ve been a big fan of Chinese economic and political policy for a while

    They actually really like Soviet Culture, the marching soldiers and flags etc. Soviet rock like Kino and the like is very popular!

    They’re casually Marxist, its not something they have to fight to learn about so socialism is a casual existence for them. I figured the youth would be “too cool or hip” but doesn’t seem to be the case

    They’re very similar as gamers, they really like shooters like battlefield and cs go. I assume their MMOs are different but I’m asking about that

    It truly is a massive cultural exchange the likes of which have never been seen before. I’m trying to find out if they grew up on the same games, Morrowind Deus Ex Thief Ultima Online D&D etc

    • Alsephina@lemmy.mlOP
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      3 months ago

      Oh yeah they really like Soviet culture. My first post on there is of some Soviet artwork and it got 1.3k likes, on a brand new account. Wouldn’t see that happening on Insta or Xitter.

  • davel [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    Reporter: [REDACTED]
    Reason: Misinformation

    Truths you find inconvenient are not misinformation, reporter.

  • Idreamofcheesy@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    I didn’t think child labor still existed in China, just harsh labor conditions and low pay.

    China’s government’s strict control of the media did, however, lead to me not questioning the social credit score thing.