You did it “undecideds” and “both sides” people: You saved Palestine! /s
‘but we had no choice’ - dumbfuks
The best choice to save palestinian people is to do everything in power against the red and blue party.
When presented with a tough choice, you make it and deal with the circumstances. Sitting it out was a choice. They get to deal with the consequences.
Sitting out was a choice as so was voting for murderers with blood on their hands. If you always make the good choice you will have no regrets because that is what you are supposed to do.
Enjoy
Enjoy
No, the best choice would have been to empower the one party that actually has, albeit often ignored but nevertheless significant, pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist members as part of its membership. And then to focus on improving that party and/or breaking up the duopoly along the natural and clear lines of opportunity present in the sole big tent party that’s left in US politics.
At the end of the day, there are no significant pro-Palestinian voices in the Republican party. There are in the Democratic party And that indisputable fact alone should inform a strategic vote.
That said, people are stupid and I don’t really blame non- and 3rd party voters for Democrats losing and the resulting shit show-- blame and culpability falls squarely on the many people who actually specifically voted for this. But it would be nice if those people would try to learn from and admit their incredibly disastrous error in judgement.
Breaking the red and blue duopoly is achieved by not supporting red and blue.
No, it really and very obviously is not.
I agree with you. To anyone who still pretends Trump and Kamala were equally terrible with regard to Palestine: Kamala vocally supported an end to the war* and a two-state solution**, a prevailing US diplomatic philosophy. Please watch what Trump said tonight— it is so much worse than that. He advocates for the full removal of Palestinian people from their homeland.
*it is a genocide and not a war, I disagree with her.
**a two-state solution is not adequate as long as Israel continues to act as it does currently. Free Palestine. I disagree with her.
“The gang saves Palestine”
Cue sunny intro
This is so fitting it’s uncanny
BlUeMaGa
I don’t think you understand. Harris wasn’t “exciting” enough, so of course they had to stay home and not vote!
Bold to presume that they were telling the truth when they said that they thought that BoTh SiDeS sAmE.
For me personally, I believe that they just might have been lying, and did not - in fact - believe their own BS at all.
Like this one from you-can-guess-who on Lemmy.ml:
They spoke, some people did not think critically and believed it, and now here we are. Lemmy is minor leagues, but the sAmE happening in the major leagues like X & Facebook etc. seem to have carried the day. Perhaps now people will start to think strategically. Or… probably not even now. Sad.:-(
Voting the red and blue parties wouldn’t have save it either. It’s time you accept the reality that the government is rigged. Making the good and best possible decision and not the “lesser evil” or other bullshit propaganda tells you is what you are supposed to do.
It’s nice to see that Democrats suddenly care about genocide.
You all were perfectly accepting of it under Genocide Joe, and even nominated him to be your presidential candidate. You’re also conveniently just ignoring that the genocide continued until the literal last day of his presidency.
You’re still running around shouting at people?
Stop it and let’s focus on what we are going to do now.
Nah. We had to listen to “gEnOcIDe jOe!!!1!” for the better part of a goddamn year from these people. I’ve got a LOT more “we fucking told you so” to get out of my system before I’m ready to move on let alone begin to forgive. The threat that is now reality was fully apparent, and these single-issue people still decided to hold the country hostage to “teach the dems a lesson”. Fuck them. They’ve also shown they can’t be counted on, so I’m in no hurry to make amends.
You are nuts. The election was in November and you are still shouting at a little minority of potential allies who you can’t even be sure have voted for Trump. Like someone else said: It’s like you’re hoping for things to get worse just to be able to say “I told you so” over and over again.
I’m not saying they voted for Trump, but they were certainly sowing division against the only candidate likely to defeat him at the polls.
“Not Trump” was NOT a choice on the ballot, and the single, actual candidate with the most votes wins. Any vote not FOR Harris was a tacit vote for Trump. No third party was going to win, and abstaining is effectively saying “BoTh SiDeZ aRE tHe SAmE!”.
They had a chance to help stop this and chose to do anything but. Again, fuck them.
Like someone else said: It’s like you’re hoping for things to get worse just to be able to say “I told you so” over and over again.
That person is an idiot (I say this not even reading their comment or knowing who you’re referring to).
Were people saying Biden was too old also sowing division or were they just criticising?
It doesn’t matter. We’re in this shit now. And have to somehow act together to get out of it again.
Were people saying Biden was too old also sowing division or were they just criticising?
Yes and no. The people who did nothing but repeat and amplify that? Sowing division (see GiveSomeFucks, Return2Ozma, etc)
The people who made valid points but weren’t beating that drum continuously? Legit criticism for the most part.
Either way, at the time, it was Biden or Trump, and the same two potential outcomes: Status quo (flawed but not fascism) or speedrun to fascism. There really shouldn’t have been a dilemma.
It doesn’t matter. We’re in this shit now. And have to somehow act together to get out of it again.
Good luck to them then. I’ll definitely be fighting the good fight, but I will absolutely not be working with the single-issue “oops, I accidentally helped bring fascism by completely failing to acknowledge the existence of a bigger picture” crowd - they’re on their own. We couldn’t count on them when it mattered, and I will not take that risk again.
Edit: Clarity
As if you could tell who is part of that “single issue” crowd when fighting. You’re so caught up mad at a very very small minority who protest voted when you should be mad that we were even given such a shit choice in the first place. It’s time for action. Not for crying about people who would not have made a difference in the election. Joe had no chance of winning. Kamala maybe could have had one had she differentiated her campaign and wasn’t just Joe 2.0
If Biden didn’t allow Israel to flatten Gaza we wouldn’t be here.
If Biden didn’t veto ceasefire at the UN multiple times we wouldn’t be here.
If Biden didn’t send the bombs to Israel we wouldn’t be here.
If Biden didn’t lie about the rape and beheadings we wouldn’t be here.
If Biden didn’t provide Israel with the political cover, including proposing sanctions on the ICC, we wouldn’t be here.
If Biden did what Reagan did in 1982 and demanded that Israel stop, we wouldn’t be here. Instead in private he was an enthusiastic supporter of Israel’s war in 1982 as he evidently was during his presidency.
I could go on…
Did biden do stupid shit? Sure. Did he made it worse? Yup. Was his at times clear and present dementia a deciding factor why trump has become president? Absofuckinglutely.
Is Biden the one proclaiming gaza a Trump realty project?
Most fucking certainly not.
Something that’s really frustrating to me is that it’s often deemed “not allowed” to point out that the Democrats (and Biden in particular) are trash fires that are hugely culpable for the situation we’re in now (that is, embracing fascism) because people assume that holding Democrats and the DNC responsible is incompatible with “voting blue.” I think the “undecided” movement during the primaries was great and probably a big part of why Biden was shuffled off of the ticket; it may have forced the DNC to do the bare minimum in fighting Trump by putting a (more) viable candidate on the ballot. I voted for Harris - unfortunately “Just vote!” didn’t work :\
People who are too moronic to understand the tightrope that any good faith administration is walking in the middle east and think it’s “just as bad” to give in to a fascist takeover instead are too far gone, and should start taking whatever meds are required asap.
Also, why are you fetching alleged Biden comments made decades before his presidency and current events you sad dog? Good luck seeing Trump being less enthusiastic
I think you mean if people understood inflation was caused by the pandemic and Trumps monetary policy we wouldn’t be here.
The number one factor in the election was the economy. Sadly, regarding Palestine, I think democrats would loss as many votes as they gained by taking a harder stance.
Trump does evil thing
people like you: BUT BIDEN BAD!!
After seeing this sentiment expressed for the 50th time on similar threads, I’m more convinced than ever that: 1.) Many Democrats prefer beating up their left flank to actually opposing Republican ideology, 2.) Many Democrats are somehow pleased that the genocide is proceeding in this fashion because they both get to genocide Palestinians and beat up on their left flank. If Kamala had won, they would have only been able to enjoy half of these pastimes.
Nah. We’re all just pissed that these shortsighted idiots decided to try and make a point about biden/harris and trump/vance being the same for Gaza/Palestine (which, clearly, factually, in every possible conceivable way, they are not), and in so doing, ended the longest running democracy in human history, to say nothing of making our lives a fucking hell for the next however many years until this shitshow is over or the country implodes.
It was idiotic, we told them it was idiotic, they argued against it, and they chose to let trump win and now we’re all stuck with the fucking bill of their stupidity. All of us.
So yeah, I’m fucking pissed at them, and the trump supporters. At least with the maga asshats you know you’re getting idiots marching on parade. We were counting on the dems not being a bunch of fuckwits.
But here we are, sitting in a shit timeline, eating a shit sandwich together.
A sandwich we all said we’d have to fucking eat if this felon rapist piece of shit clown got elected again.
It’s just so fucking exhausting. God fucking damn it, and people like you trying to blame those of us that went out and voted and tried to keep democracy going for another round. We’re not the bad guys here, and we absolutely get to fucking bag on all you dipshits that chose to let this happen by not exercising your right, and fucking DUTY, to vote.
The real failure of the Democrats wasn’t even on Gaza. The day Biden won the election, I was saying that it didn’t matter, and that Trump or a similar Republican would be back in power in 2024. Why? Because it was abundantly obvious, even then, well before Gaza, that he wasn’t going to do the things that needed to be done to keep Trump out of power.
The 2020 election was the anomaly. DNC milquetoast centrism is a dead philosophy and has been politically nonviable since 2012 at the latest. Biden only won by a fluke in 2020 because Trump managed to so massively screw up the covid response. If covid hadn’t happened, or if Trump hadn’t actively screwed it up so much, he would have won in 2020.
Biden represents a philosophy that voters have rejected again and again. Yet the Democrats will never fucking learn.
Even if by some miracle Kamala had won, all that would have changed was that Trump or another fascist would have won in 2028, because again, she wasn’t going to do anything substantial.
People ultimately didn’t even stay home just because of Gaza. They stayed home because they were tired of voting for a failed party again and again, election after election, because “democracy was on the line.”
Here’s a hard fucking truth about democracy. For most people, democracy hasn’t been worth jack shit. Remember, the bottom 90% of the country doesn’t actually live in a democracy and hasn’t for decades. US democracy died a long time ago. People just got tired of propping up the facade and decided to finally let the rotten edifice collapse.
Want someone to blame for the current Trump term? Blame Biden for appointing Merrick fucking Garland. And it’s clear that even now, the Democratic leadership hasn’t learned a damn thing. The Democratic Party needs to be burned to ashes. It is irredeemable.
And Garland dragging his feet on prosecuting trump, and Democrats who voted to confirm horrible picks for every position, especially the courts. I didn’t see Obama closing gitmo either.
Why not be mad at Dems for not doing a better job and having better candidates?
That’s like Burger King serving poop burgers and you’re pissed that people stopped eating shit burgers cuz now Burger King is closed and they built a Chick Fil A in it’s place.
No party loyalist will ever admit the party is in any way culpable for its own losses.
How about admitting that the party is culpable and the people who said not to vote for them or people who didn’t vote at all are also culpable, because the world isn’t black and white and there’s plenty of blame to go around?
No?
Black and white world?
Cool.
Well, that precludes being a loyalist, doesn’t it? So clearly not the group to which I was referring. No need to be reductive as I’m not claiming a binary worldview.
That may be the dumbest analogy I’ve ever seen.
It’s a good analogy and I stand by it
It’s kinda fascinating how every single comment section about another Trump news is filled with folks dogging on a minority who voted third-party and not the, what was it, third of the country (?) who didn’t vote at all.
Do you all really think that those who trully didn’t vote because of the Palestine would somehow change the final outcome? Were they that numerous?
This is a genuine question, I’m not trying to be snarky.
Given the highly political atmosphere of Lemmy, I have the impression that most users vote hard. Most in the liberal side were vocal about their desire to vote Kamala to prevent *gestures broadly* from happening. However, users from the tankie instances, amounting to a third of lemmy, regularly decried the democrat option, instead urging protest votes or abstention.
The world isn’t lemmy, lemmy is lemmy. And lemmy has plenty people to clown on for actively choosing this.
It’s not just lemmy, it’s something I’ve seen on other sites as well as traditional media (repeated by news anchors, commentators and even politicians). It’s just weird to me that the focus is on such a small number of voters instead of those who simply didn’t care enough/were prevented from voting/weren’t successfully convinced by the democrats.
It might be different elsewhere but I can only speak to what I see on lemmy, and it seems appropriate here. I don’t check out other sites or watch the news enough to notice their talking points, so I can’t speak on that. I do know that I saw similar calls for protest voting in 2016, and they left a strong negative impression on me.
Understandable, it just seems like a wider sentiment based on my limited exposure to this topic.
Irl, I do see hear complaints about non-voters. Fewer of them on lemmy, where words were aimed mostly at voter disenfranchisement efforts, but I did see them during the election.
Yeah, I’m not from or in the US which is why my question was mostly about what I’ve seen online and some media snippets. I have no idea about IRL sentiment, though I assume it varies like with everything.
Vote hard? The ‘liberal’ side was worried about gestures broadly at what’s actually happening in reality right this very moment. Lemmy isn’t an island, it’s a megaphone.
Full ballot, urging others to do the same.
Dude, this is a trans-positive communist Linux forum. We are far from representative of society at large. Lemmy is as much a megaphone as my mouth is a cup. Take a sip, if you dare.
Take a sip, if you dare.
Don’t threaten me with a good time.
I guess we know where you stand then.
America has a FTTP voting system, so time has distilled its presidential election into to 2 real choices. This was one, and the milquetoast status quo party is the other. By that merit, not voting for one party helps the other party, though not as much as voting for the opposite. In our case, the opponent of the milquetoast party is the crypto Nazi party.
I’m not the other person you replied to, but personally I think there was a clear choice between the two candidates in regard to which one was better for the Palestinians given their track records. Granted, maybe not good enough in these voters opinions, given that they enabled a genocide in the first place and refused to swiftly correct that action.
Besides billionaires and straight, white, conservative, “Christian” men, I honestly don’t know who benefits from a Trump/Musk presidency as compared to a Harris/Walz presidency.
I get that democrats weren’t good enough, they rarely are in my opinion either, but I do consider them better than this. And yep, she and Biden enabled a genocide, no argument there. I even empathize with those that feel adamant that either we have justice all, or justice for none. But I think we are a little frustrated that in the fatalistic protest, Kamala’s opponents ensured the doom of not just Palestinians, but women, LGBT+ folk, and likely many more.
But hey, price of eggs and all too, right?
Frankly I’m getting sick and tired of every story about Gaza being filled with smug comments blaming everything on liberal Lemmy members. Biden was a shit candidate who was losing badly before Gaza ever happened. Harris was a golden opportunity to pivot the Biden campaign into something that stood a chance of winning and instead Harris ran on a campaign of “I’m exactly like Biden but a little younger” which is the most gobsmackingly stupid decision of a political campaign in at least a couple decades.
Harris didn’t lose because of Palestine. I mean it didn’t fucking help, but there were plenty of other reasons she lost. So can we please stop with all the annoying smug “are you happy with what you did?” comments? It’s getting really fucking old.
Now for what I actually wanted to say.
Besides billionaires and straight, white, conservative, “Christian” men, I honestly don’t know who benefits from a Trump/Musk presidency as compared to a Harris/Walz presidency.
Only billionaires are benefiting. Straight, white, conservative, Christian or even men, none of those groups in any combination is benefiting. They may not be getting shafted as hard as others are, but only billionaires are going to see anything even remotely positive out of this.
Sorry hearing “We told ya so” is so irritating to you. The collective focus will shift over time.
You’re right, Harris absolutely lost because she wasn’t good enough. But yeah, people are going to remind you that the alternative is worse, so that hopefully we can avoid this if there ever is a next time.
Kamala didn’t lose because of Palestine. She lost because DNC centrism has been a political dead end since at least 2012. 2020 was the anomaly; Trump only lost because of Covid.
Centrists are just using the Palestine issue as a scapegoat for their own failures. Kamala/Biden was doomed long before Palestine.
Or you could stop and build a string coalition with an action plan.
I am actively looking to join one as soon as there is momentum, because I am certainly not the right candidate for leading a political movement, nor do I think I’m a great fit to generate that early momentum.
But no matter what, I don’t think the group sentiment should be “give me a perfect candidate, or I’m helping the Nazis” That seems like a foundational issue that needs to be corrected, don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. And relatively speaking, the “good” choice was simply not being Nazis.
Adapt to the situation, and as part of the progress maybe we can adopt a better voting system that doesn’t force you to make one of 2 choices for high level government positions. But don’t delude yourself into thinking there was any other option. Our choices were genocide, or more genocide, and voters that didn’t want the genocide candidate ironically helped the more genocide candidate. They should regret that.
Stop focusing on what was/could have been. Focus on what is/can be. A house divided refers to self before all.
But yeah, people are going to remind you that the alternative is worse, so that hopefully we can avoid this if there ever is a next time.
The thing is though that I don’t think anyone doesn’t already know that. The people who legitimately didn’t vote for Harris in the general election won’t care because they’ll say “I didn’t vote for Trump either, so it’s not my fault” and no amount of everyone telling them it is or explaining the reality of our terrible first past the post system is going to change that. You’re basically preaching to the choir here and it’s frankly nothing but a distraction from addressing the real and pressing issue of the white nationalist fascists literally seizing power right now. The thousandth “told ya so” post isn’t doing anything more than the last 990 did besides stroking your own ego.
I mean, it’s also part of the discourse in social media, too. The person I replied to actually asked for the opinion related to those who share the same sentiment as I do. In this instance, it is kinda on you that you kept reading the thread.
Though I would agree that the overall focus should be on what we do from here. And to that, I’d like to see some form of organized community action, protest, or something like that start to pick up steam so that I could support or participate in.
The issue is that it’s practically the only thing being commented in any post related to Palestine and it’s drowning out all the useful discussion that needs to be taking place. Pick any post about Palestine and look at the comments and the overwhelming majority of them are some variation on “boy, I bet all those people who refused to vote for Harris are so happy now”, which is about as useful a comment as all the idiots that used to rush to post “First” on articles back in the day.
These “told you so” comments are so pervasive it’s starting to feel vaguely like astroturfing. A bunch of comments encouraging non-Republican voters to fight amongst themselves and drowning out any possible productive discussion or organization sure sounds like it would be a brilliant move by the fascist supporters. I’m not suggesting everyone making those comments is astroturfing or a troll, but the absolute way that’s blanketing all discussion around Palestine sure does make me wonder if some of them are.
There was a poll of non-voters who voted four years ago. The number one reason they gave for not voting was the genocide in Gaza at 29%. I was surprised by this, but yeah you can potentially say she lost because of Palestine.
I agree she was a shit candidate who, if anything, aimed to the right of Biden. The Democrats are terrible. I still voted against Donald Trump. I’m not here to gloat at all, but look at the situation the world is in now.
Thiel is white and certainly not straight, and I guarantee he is immensely benefiting.
It was a huge talking point before the election. We really needed to punish Democrats for not stopping Isreal.
Yes, because everyone who could have voted and didn’t bears responsibility for looking the other way while Trump gained the presidency.
And everyone who was vocal at any point about not voting for Harris for any reason is culpable for assisting Trump in gaining the presidency, and for influencing others to do the same.
See, that’s kind of what I’m talking about. Based on the results I’ve seen, all the votes for independent candidates combined amounted to less than 2% of all counted votes. Do you really think those 2% had a bigger impact on the end result than the 90 or so million of people who didn’t vote at all?
I’m not saying they had no impact, it just feels weird to focus so much on those who cared enough to take part in the democratic process while treating the rest as a secondary issue.
To clarify, this is just my observation based on internet comments and some news snippets I’ve seen. I understand things might look different IRL and from a perspective of someone in the middle of this madness.
Got it. It’s all the fault of people, not the inept dnc for this situation.
Well, both.
Seems to most in this thread dnc is faultless though
I hear you… I see tons of dnc hate here too
Which many seem to not want to see or hear
You made a fucking choice. Take some responsibility for it
Just like it was their choice to do the opposite of whatever got them enthusiasm
the party can never fail only be failed
There’s a lot of frustration at the segment of the population who 1) vocally said that Harris would be just as bad as trump in regards to Gaza 2) loudly argued that failure to listen to them in regards to Gaza would cost the Democrats the election, and 3) said that anyone who was willing to vote for Harris despite not perfectly walking the line in regards to Gaza was a supporter of genocide. “The lesser of two evils is still a vote for genocide”, and “it’s not like it can be more genocide” are both things that have been said to me.
So, according to the people in question: yes, they are that numerous. I’m incredibly sad that I seem to have been right, but also fuck you to all the absolute assholes who accused me of supporting genocide because I’d rather the president get a middling cease fire and shamefully keep sending munitions to Israel than have us actively send troops to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Congrats! You got what you wanted! No more war in Gaza, because we’re going to finish it now.
Even if they’re in they’re not large enough to matter, electorally, they were consistently aggressively smug and superior to anyone who said that maybe trump wasn’t going to be the savior of the Palestinians, as evidence by his explicit words.
It’s cathartic to be mad at people who were condescending towards you when they were wrong, even if you’d rather not be right, purely because they called you a bad person for wanting the same thing but thinking their way to get it wouldn’t work.Well, for point 2, they were kind of right. It’s mostly a self fulfilling prophecy, but when a sizable chunk of your voting block says “take this position if you want my vote” and then you take the opposite position it really shouldn’t come as a surprise if you subsequently lose the election. That 100% was on Harris.
Whether Harris would have been better than Trump (for Gaza) is perhaps a more interesting question. Ultimately Israel is going to be using their own troops for this not US troops because US troops aren’t going to go along with gunning down unarmed civilians in mass the way the Israeli troops will. Whether it’s Trump or Harris that wasn’t going to change. The biggest difference is just one of political posturing. Harris would have made disapproving statements and basically said “we’re very disappointed in Israel” while still sending the exact same weapons and funds Trump is sending. Maybe Israel would have played things more low key, maybe not, we’ll never know now. So point 1 is kind of a wash.
Point 3 is really a more abstract moral question I suppose. At what point does something cross over into “supporting genocide”. Does sending money to the Israeli government count? What about doing business with companies that do so? What about having the power to do something about it and instead choosing to do nothing? I think we can all agree that Trump absolutely supports genocide. The argument for if Harris did is far less concrete, and for people who voted for Harris (or I guess Trump for that matter) more nebulous still.
The real problem ultimately though is that none of this existed in a vacuum. If this was literally a referendum on how the US should respond to Israel that would be one thing, but that was such a tiny slice of a much bigger discussion. The biggest and most concerning of which was Trump essentially admitting that he was planning on staging a coup of the US government which meant no matter how the Gaza situation was going to play our Trump absolutely could not be let anywhere near the office of the president.
The election is over though, Harris lost because she ran a shit campaign on proven losing policy. People need to get over that and focus on actually dealing with the shit sandwich we’ve collectively been handed instead of continuing to point fingers and argue about whose fault it was.
The election is over though, Harris lost because she ran a shit campaign on proven losing policy. People need to get over that and focus on actually dealing with the shit sandwich we’ve collectively been handed instead of continuing to point fingers and argue about whose fault it was.
I mean this with all sincerity: fuck off.
Arguing that letting this and everything else happen is better than what Harris brought to the table doesn’t just get forgotten because the people who said this would be better are upset they were wrong and don’t want to be blamed.The “winning policy” is evidently “ethnic cleansing”. That’s what came of all this, do you get that? Milquetoast ceasefire and continuing the slow push towards a two state solution lost to ethnic cleansing.
Whether it’s Trump or Harris that wasn’t going to change. The biggest difference is just one of political posturing.
Trump has already increased the weapons being sent, rolling back a Biden administration block on certain weapons. You can’t just say “no, they won’t use US troops” when we’re on an article about trump wanting to use US troops for ethnic cleansing. Why do you think Israel gets a say in what troops go in? It’s not like they can stop US if we want to send ours in. Why do you think American troops wouldn’t do these things?
We’re not at the hypothetical stage here. There have already been concrete changes in policy that are beyond “posturing”.
The real problem ultimately though is that none of this existed in a vacuum. If this was literally a referendum on how the US should respond to Israel that would be one thing, but that was such a tiny slice of a much bigger discussion.
Yes, and that’s exactly the point. Even if their policies on Gaza were exactly the same, which they very much were not, it would still be better to have voted for Harris because of so many reasons, none of which mattered to the people who swore to not vote for her over Gaza.
This is being civil about things. We’re not saying that the people who refused Harris because of Gaza are transphobic, antivax, anti-education, anti abortion, racist misogynists, even though supporting Harris evidently makes one a genocidal racist in their eyes.
Maybe if people said “you know what? Maybe I made a mistake” there wouldn’t be such animosity, but here we are. Better a mask off fascist than an imperfect compromise.
And don’t worry, I am doing what I can to deal with the shit sandwich they wanted us to have. That doesn’t keep me from having the ability, nor seeing the need for, needling people who thought that this would be better for Gaza than what Harris wanted.
I mean this with all sincerity: fuck off.
Same to you you annoying whiny git.
That doesn’t keep me from having the ability, nor seeing the need for, needling people who thought that this would be better for Gaza than what Harris wanted.
Except you’re not doing that, you’re just being annoying and pissing off people that fucking voted for Harris for no god damn reason. The election is over, Harris lost, and now we need to deal with fucking Cheeto Mussolini and instead of doing something useful you’re spending every opportunity to bitch and moan about how everyone is getting what they deserve now. At this point I’m just going to stop reading the comments of any post about Palestine because the comment sections are all just cesspools of people wanking off about how right they were this entire time.
Harris never should have backed Israel and it along with all the other idiotic policies she pushed cost her the election just like everyone said it would. People were begging her to run on better policies and instead her campaign was “vote for me or else” which failed to convince enough people. It sucks and now we’re all suffering because of it, but as much as it’s the fault of the people that didn’t vote for her it’s even more her and the DNC’s fault for running a crap campaign. It is literally a politician’s job to convince people to vote for them, and Harris failed at her job.
If you voted for Harris you’re not the person being talked to, are you? They asked why people were mad at those that voted third party.
Why would I be mad at people who voted for Harris?I don’t buy the whole "you’re not allowed to be mad at the voters!” thing. They had the same information I did, and decided that instead of saying “gee, the easiest thing I can do to in anyway stop the obvious bad things that could happen is to vote against trump” they did some form of “not that”.
If it’s a choice between the zoo and the crotch kicking factory, and three vote for the zoo, four for the crotch kicking, and three more couldn’t be bothered to vote, *I’m gonna be mad at the people who voted for the crotch kicking as well as the people who didn’t vote", and I’m gonna be frustrated when they say it’s the zoo’s fault for not advertising more and we need to move on and hold hands through the kicking.
Sure, but the overwhelming majority of people on here voted for Harris even if they really didn’t want to and continuing to bitch and moan about everyone that didn’t, the overwhelming majority of which aren’t even on Lemmy isn’t doing anything useful.
There seems to be this group on here that’s very black and white. During the election you weren’t allowed to say anything negative about Harris or complain about first Biden and then Harris supporting Israel or you were called a Trump supporter. Nothing short of declaring her the most perfect candidate ever satisfied them. It was fucking stupid of her to endorse Biden’s already losing platform including his support of Israel and that cost her the election. Saying it was going to cost her the election shouldn’t have been a controversial thing but to some on here it was.
It was already exhausting when it was going on during the election and it’s even more exhausting now. Harris literally doesn’t matter anymore. Whether she would have been better for Gaza or not is an entirely academic question at this point unless you’ve got a time machine (and if you do go back and convince George Washington that first past the post voting is an idiotic idea).
I just want to see discussion about what can be done to oppose Trump and help in some way Palestine, but instead it’s a non-stop parade of comments about how anyone who complained about Harris supporting Israel is terrible and this is all their fault.
As for your analogy, it’s more like the choice was between the crotch kicking factory and the anal raped without lube factory and a bunch of people complained that if they insist on being the crotch kicking factory nobody is going to want to go there. So 3 people voted for the crotch kicking factory, 4 voted for anal rape, 2 voted for the zoo, and 3 people stayed home. Then everyone who voted for the crotch kicking factory got angry and said it’s the fault of the people who voted for the zoo that anal rape won.
I’m just as frustrated that Trump won, but what I’m not is surprised. Disappointed absolutely, but not surprised. The Democrats have been failing this country for decades. People are only going to keep voting for the lesser evil that sees things getting slightly worse election after election for so long before they start thinking there’s no point.
If you really want to apportion blame for this mess the most to blame is first Trump, then the GOP, then Trump voters, then the DNC, then Harris, then 3rd party and non-voters. The DNC needed to realize decades ago that it doesn’t matter how many big corporate cheques they cash when the policies they’re adopting are turning away voters that they desperately need. Harris should have looked at the train wreck of Biden’s campaign and realized she needed to do something different. Third party voters needed to understand that with first past the post you don’t get to vote for the candidate you want, you have to vote against the candidate you don’t want.
It’s funny because millions of people did vote, but it was never counted. And unlike 2020… These uncounted votes are proven 🤷
That’s another thing I didn’t see brought up nearly enough. Granted, I’m not extremely tuned into American media so maybe it is a hot topic there but yeah, thanks for mentioning it.
It’s equally fascinating how people like you think that only one group can be to blame for an electoral loss and that blame can’t be shared.
And if their protest vote changed nothing, what was the point of it?
You’re accusing me of something I never did. I’m asking because pretty much all the blame I’ve seen is put on those protest voters and the topic of non-voters rarely, if ever, comes up in these comments.
I very specifically said “people like you” because I did not know if you were amongst the people I was talking about.
To me saying “people like you” implies similarity between “them” and the person you’re saying it to but whatever.
To reiterate, I don’t think these people are blameless (every bit of resistance counts after all) but I feel like for many normal people, politicians and media commentators, they (pro-Palestinian protesters, LGBT folks etc) became a scapegoat that completely stole the focus from all the rest of the potential voters who didn’t feel strongly enough to oppose an openly fascist candidate. It’s just weird to see.
I don’t think they are being a scapegoat at all. I think they are being told they share in the blame. And they refuse to admit it, some to the point of saying ludicrous things like “ethnic cleansing isn’t as bad as genocide and Harris wanted genocide.”
There is a lot of blame to be shared.
Perhaps I’m just unlucky enough to stumble mostly on comments focusing on them. I was however lucky enough I didn’t have to read explanations like the one you’ve quoted here yet.
There is a lot of blame to be shared.
That’s for sure.
I mean if you’re going to dog on minorities then you gotta dog on the white people he has majority support from.
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Funny to see them cry over 3rd party that at least showed up and helped dems get seats, instead of the people who didn’t come out to vote because the DNC can’t energise anyone saying the same nothing will change bullshit
Their strategy is to overwhelm the news cycle with distractions. Stay focused.
All, please read this article (NYT gift link) - this IS and has been the strategy. Blitzkrieg policy while distracting the “stupid” media with outrageous, ultimately meaningless distractions.
From the ever flatulent Steve Bannon: “All we have to do is flood the zone. Every day we hit them with three things. They’ll bite on one, and we’ll get all of our stuff done.”
Steve Bannon said six years ago on Bill Maher: “You seperate the signal from the noise. Watch the signal. There’s a flashbang grenade every day as far as noise goes. Watch the signal.”
On what? It’s all crazy. “We’re going to invade Gaza” is just as insane as “we’re going to put 18 year olds in charge of the Treasury”, “eliminate the department of education” or “win the war on diversity”.
Yeah people keep saying “this is just a distraction” to, like, very single story. So what are they distracting from? Please tell us, because all of it is fucking awful.
Distracting us from their actions to enact Project 2025 plans, mostly. The degradation of human rights (starting with immigrants and trans people, for example). It seems like they’re gonna keep threatening to invade countries and they’re gonna keep playing tariff chicken, but pay attention to what they’re doing within the US.
The distraction is currently no doubt from the takeing over of certain essential government agencies, hollowing them out, getting rid of anyone critical of the new regime.
Maybe them draining the Calofornia reservoirs used to irrigate crops during the summer to cause widespread crop failures and drive up food prices massively in a few months.
They’re actively trying to cripple the country to please Putin.
Exactly what that they are doing is not a distraction? Because every single time they say or do anything, someone on Lemmy says it’s a distraction.
Now even announcing they will invade Gaza is a distraction?
Literally what is not a distraction?
Direct actions taken to degrade civil rights and human rights within the US in pursuit of their Project 2025 plans
So… like taking over Gaza?
That’s just a sound bite. Trump just said it, nothing is being done to bring it about.
What is being done is systematically gutting and disabling key government departments and seizing control over the treasury and hiring process, without any legal basis.What makes you think nothing is being done to bring it about? How could you possibly know?
Just curious what happens when they neuro-starlink beginning with prisoners. Johny Mnemonic?
Honestly I think some of this bullshit could be considered semi serious. This is Donnie’s crap. Leon has his own agenda.
Focused on what? There’s virtually zero resistance from the democrats to every new thing that emerges.
Yeah the shooting in Sweden is getting buried by news like this. Not that the situation in Gaza isn’t terrible or that the US isn’t a terrible country to be in, but stil
I mean, a huge number of his own supporters are questioning this. I wouldn’t call this a viable strategy.
Just a not even remotely friendly reminder that if you are American, eligible to vote and didn’t vote for Kamala then you actively voted for this. Actively voted for genocide. If you didn’t vote you’re even fucking worse because at least the Republicans were willing to openly say what horrible people they are. You just don’t care.
The United States is a failed country, a terrorist state and should be wrenched away from its people. You do not deserve to have a country that large with that much power when you are incapable of agreeing on a singular fucking thing. The United States should be forcibly broken up into at least 2, if not more, countries that can make up a trade bloc. This bullshit of getting everyone killed from coast to coast because of your pathetic patriotic ego of “wahhhhhhh but my countryyyyyyyyyy”
Fuck the United States.
What’s the point of saying that here? If you’re an American who could vote and you’re on Lemmy there’s a 99.9% chance you voted blue. But even if that weren’t the case, all of this transpired while we had a Democrat in office, so it’s just a horrible continuation of an already existing trend
They don’t care. The blue conservatives wanted the electoral hostage situation inherrent with First-past-the-post voting.
Now they want to pin the fallout of this policy of keeping 3rd parties out of the electoral process on people not represented in government.
Blue MAGA
I mostly agree.
Also, I live in the US.
The US shouldn’t be considered a single country. The EU has way more in common between it’s members and acts more like one country than the US.
Breaking it up in 50 different states is probably gonna cause a war I see that.
Slowly the US (which has been a terrible country for a lot of people) is dying and pulling others down. The US has pushed it’s bullshit into way to many countries it is not even funny.
The contradiction between blaming voting blocs and then blaming rampant patriotism is not even remotely unironic.
The patriotism is what put them in this mess but the voting blocs are what is killing them. The United States had no business being the country that it is. It overextended its reach to an absurd extent. It tried to captiulate to too many people who all wanted to share in the nationlistic nonsense that America pumps out daily. Now the country is fragmented to hell. Too many people feel like that the country doesn’t represent them in anyway while also insisting that the United States should be another way. So they rally around two voting blocs that diverge and don’t represent really anyone because they’re either like the Democrats and spreading themselves too thin while making no one happy or the Republicans who actively ignore what their voters want the second they have power.
The country is schizophrenic.
I understand the emotional appeal to blaming individuals for their action/inaction, but the fault lies with the system of governance. You can try to herd cats until the cows come home, but it only leaves you frustrated and drained. We can only educate ourselves, and try to educate others.
I understand the emotional appeal to blaming individuals for their action/inaction, but the fault lies with the system of governance.
And how do you fix that?
VOTE.
My blame is accurately placed.
I’ve been voting for 40 years, and look where we are. I understand the desire for change, but have to remind myself not to fall victim to electoral fetishism. Real, lasting change, can only come from social movements by the people.
Yes. This is true. Do you know how you effect those social movements in the government?
By voting.
You cannot argue that you are trying to participate in a social change of government by not engaging in that system of government. It is what is there. If you want to change it, you either need a full on revolution or active social change effected through voting in of various representatives that actually represent you and are willing to change those laws. True, you cannot fall to electoral fetishism, but that doesn’t mean to just ignore it entirely.
So. Once again, I am blaming the voters which is an accurate blame to place. Why? Because they are uneducated, hostile, or hateful. They do not engage in the voting system, they engage in spectacle. Whether that be by posting random comments like this Index person who is blatantly a Russian or by throwing a hissy fit but not doing anything.
The reason this cycle keeps continuing is because voters do not educate themselves and vote for their best interests. It is just as simple as that. Straight up. It isn’t complex. There isn’t some massive conspiracy. People just do not bother.
I believe you mentioned that propaganda influences people. The same system that educates us, propagandizes us. Why blame those who are miseducated and manipulated? That’s barking up the wrong tree. I get it, I’ve been where you are. It’s frustrating. And it’s difficult to stay focused on the root cause (because of propaganda). Fighting with friends and family, even though you may be right, is fruitless. It’s much better, and more productive, to listen, try to understand where they are misinformed, and try to find common ground. I have influenced many in my life through connecting on an emotional level, and then steering them to constructive conversations of understanding. They want us at each other’s throats.
Just a not even remotely friendly reminder that if you are American, eligible to vote and didn’t vote for Kamala then you actively voted for this.
Don’t try to spin logic. The red and blue party were both and has always been unified in supporting the fascist israel government in getting rid of gaza. People who chose not to play the rigged show the US government put up with elections is doing way less harm to humanity than the ones actively voting and supporting murderers.
Underrated comment here.
The Dems knew people were pissed with their support of the genocide in Israel, because several states had large percentages of people who voted ‘undecided’ in the Democratic primaries with the stated purpose of communicating that they wanted the US to stop sending WMD’s to Israel.
And, like usual, the Dems just ignored it, and opted instead to literally help Genocide Joe stack bodies until his final day in office. Kamala, when asked what she’d do differently, replied: “Nothing comes to mind.” Indulging she and Joe’s arrogance was given more consideration than child genocide. Think about that.
As much as people hate hearing ‘both sides’, this is very much a both sides issue.
Genocide Joe
And you have dismissed yourself from the conversation of adults. Thanks for that.
Y’all keep screaming about how he’s Genocide Joe for sending bombs to Israel. It just demonstrates how much Propaganda you’ve eaten for breakfast. Biden had no choice. Congress approved the weapons transfer. When Trump tried to stop military support to Ukraine, he was impeached. Apparently you didn’t bother to pick that up on your quest for screaming into the void.
Try actually educating yourself on how politics works instead of focusing on politically charged TikToks that are just angry about the situation. You haven’t learned anything. You’ve just absorbed propaganda.
Congratulations. You’re a useful idiot.
Biden had as much choice as Trump does now - that is to say, if he or any other Democrat actually didn’t want the genocide to continue they could have taken a page from the Republican handbook and bent the government to their purpose. There is, and never was, any will to do that. There is ALWAYS a choice - people like you who keep whining “Oh noooo the Dems had no chooiiiice, they have no blame in thiiiiis ;__;” are a huge part of the reason why things have gotten as bad as they have. Fuck you. (and, before you accuse me of ~nOt DoInG mY pArT~ by voting Blue, I damn well did vote for Harris)
Biden had as much choice as Trump does now - that is to say, if he or any other Democrat actually didn’t want the genocide to continue they could have taken a page from the Republican handbook and bent the government to their purpose
They didn’t have to bend anything. We have laws on the books about sending arms and bombs to states intending to use them for targeting civilians. Just enforce the law
I wasn’t going to accuse you of not doing your part. I was going to accuse you of being uneducated, like everyone else. You are basically saying to beat fascism you need to use fascism and like… nah. Let’s not go about that, thanks.
Hah, that’s fair enough. I guess I’m just so frustrated at seeing Republicans repeatedly get their way by acting outside of the law that I want people who actually care about human rights and justice to do the same thing :(
I will say that the Democratic Party is not doing enough. They’re fucking confirming positions and going with the flow. The leadership is failing and needs to wake up but there is a lot they can do within the legal system. The Nazis, when they took over, did everything legally at first. People need to push back but there’s just… no pushback. AOC is screaming and actually getting stuff done to an extent but so few other people are. The leader of the Dems in the house tweeted basically “Jesus take the wheel” which isn’t a GREAT stance.
Don’t try to spin logic.
Some very strong pot kettle black energy here.
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If this isn’t bad, what is, douche?
He’s never going to love you no matter how hard you simp for him.
I don’t simp for him, fuck that scumbag.
But I think issues are more complicated than that, because for example Democrats actively supported the genocide too, so it’s not just 1 bad guy.I don’t know, definitely feels like the democrats passively supported, while Trump seems to want to participate.
Can’t say the democrats were making the right choice, but Trumps stance is objectively worse.
If you call a cease fire, hostage release, and two state solution as “supported the genocide” then… I guess?
I wouldn’t call it that though. You do you I guess.
Ah yes the black and white both sides bad argument. You do know it’s possible for one side to be worse right? So much worse.
List the ways in which Democrats actively supported genocide. Go ahead.
Correct
If you didn’t vote then you voted. Got it.
Correct. If you didn’t vote then you are spineless, a coward and lack any morals. You saw fascism coming and ignored what everyone said and then decided that it wasn’t worth the bare minimum effort of voting.
If you did not cast a ballot and you were eligible to do so then the things I want to say to you would get me banned from lemmy and probably arrested.
I mean my vote hasn’t mattered in the last 2 elections. My state hasnt flipped blue since Obama. There’s a lot of situations where voting is a waste of time. Making that not be true is what’s going to increase voter turnout, not trying to shame them for something they’re not responsible for
And if everyone in your state who thought that actually decided to vote then it might have actually made an impact.
See previous message.
K. That doesn’t explain your nonsense about “If you didn’t vote then you voted”.
It literally does. Your reading comprehension skills are not my problem.
It’s not my reading comprehension that’s at issue here, it’s your abilities with basic logic.
Ratio says otherwise. You are getting hammered with downvotes because you can’t grasp the simple concept that I put forward.
Ooh, “I’m popular so I’m right”. Yep, you have a major problem with logic.
Correct. If you didn’t vote then you are spineless, a coward and lack any morals.
Not correct, if you didn’t vote you didn’t vote period.
People saying and persuading others to vote for murderers with blood on their hands are much bigger spineless coward with no morals.
That’s still a choice though.
You sound like one of the idiots my grandfather tried to warn in Germany in the 1920s before he got the fuck out and came to America on forged papers on a Japanese fishing boat
And you sound like an idiot using a poor comparison to defend scum as bad as the nazis.
So lemme get this straight. The Democrats are the Nazis here, not the people literally throwing up a seig heil?
You really have no say in this conversation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Globke
Most governments around the world are ruled by villains consumed by greed and lust of power. If you support and fuel a genocide you are bad on pairs as nazi regardless of your country or political agenda. The government of israel by definition can’t be nazi but they are committing crimes as the nazi were.
Nope. It is dead correct. If you were eligible to vote and you did not vote then you should feel horrible. You should feel attacked. You should feel like everyone hates you. They do. You decided that fascism wasn’t important enough to vote against. You decided to go “Well both sides suck” when one side was actively planning genocide and destruction of the United States.
You do not get to have a say. Why? Because you didn’t vote. You decided not to use your voice so guess what? You don’t get to have one here.
You can try to blame people who didn’t vote the red and blue party as much as you want but they are not going to feel horrible because they didn’t support any murderer. You seem to be projecting a lot of resentment perhaps deep down you don’t feel happy about your choice?
See previous comment.
You don’t vote? You don’t get to have a say in the conversation. You have willingly silenced yourself for the next 4 years. So sad for you.
Not engaging is also a choice, a very shit one in this case. You either contributed -1, 0, or +1 to a fascist takeover, sure 0 might be better than +1 but taking a neutral stance against such a dogshit prospect really puts the chair in armchair revolutionary, and doesn’t make you much better than the cheeto worshippers.
Not voting at minimum makes you more dumb than MAGA… At least they understand voting can bring changes.
True, and that’s despite most of them believing it’s rigged anyway lmao
OP is saying +1 = 0.
Both sides were pro-genocide, you need a multi-party system
We do. But until then, everything they said stands.
We need systems where we vote for policies rather than parties.
Absolutely nothing will be fixed until we do.
You’re complicit in the result, correct.
That’s not what OP said. He said not voting is voting.
Silence is consent when it comes to politics. Always has been; always will be.
Is consent the same as voting for something?
Did you do anything to stop the violent ego maniac in the White House? No? Then you’ve cooperated with him.
Ok, now explain how not voting is voting.
Abstaining affects the outcome as much as voting does.
As much? Are you sure about that?
I’m pretty sure they mean half as much.
Panama, Greenland, Canada, Gaza, what else? The world?
new zealand’s underground movement to keep it off world maps about to pay off.
If only it weren’t for those damned Hobbits.
Once the elves left the property values went to shit.
Australia is west of New Zealand…
does that make Australia the undying lands?!
Isn’t that where billionaires own a lot of property? I could be misremembering.
They want us looking elsewhere while they steal the keys to the kingdom.
Everywhere will be a state!
Well except Puerto Rico, for some odd reason the one place that could reasonably become a state isn’t on the list.
The US is his focus, everything else is a means to an end. Either to distract people with his antics, rile up his base to hate “the others”, or get his detractors reacting instead of acting.
He has always been a two-bit conman, the problem is he’s got the backing to get everyone hunting the queen, while his friends are busy picking our pockets.
Mars should be on that list
Peacemaker à l’orange.
Punk rock predicted this.
Propagandhi - Haille Sellasse Up Your Ass
“The West Bank, The Gaza Strip, soon will be parking lots for American tourists, and fascist cops”
Great band! Awesome to see them mentioned.🤩
“It seems that there might finally be a temporary peace in gaza… wait, it’s, it’s, BY GOD IT’S THE US COMING FROM BEHIND WITH A STEEL CHAIR”
Trump is a real estate guy. That’s why he wants Canada and Greenland: lots of undeveloped real estate. Never mind that the reason for this is given by being non-developable.
And now Gaza: he actually thinks that he just has to move a few million people somewhere, and turn it into his personal luxury resort.
Do you want another 9/11? That’s how you get another 9/11.
Do you want another 9/11?
Even if they don’t, it feels like it would help them…
That is a problem that I also noticed.
Its not shocking because he told us this plan last month.
I recall reading months ago that Jared Kushner visited and was calling it prime beachfront property then. 🤷♂️
When the Ottomans Ruled the area Gaza was primarily a resort town.
What the actual fuck…
Just don’t call it genocide
Apparently that was 100% Joe Biden 🙄
Well, this is involuntary ethnic relocation for the sake of American real estate tycoon wannabes. Not genocide at all. Nosireebob.
Shock
To people who weren’t paying attention probably
Trump doesn’t speak for his citizens. “Trump” is the one who wants it
Shock? I’m surprised Trump didn’t start bombing it on day one.
To hear him speak of it, there’s nothing left to bomb.
“Shock”, only people getting shocked are the centrist that arent far righters but actually believed in the shit they spread. But as always nobody learns from anything.
It’s not really a shock, Kushner has been talking about it for over a year.
