I’ll give you some context: I (22M) was raised to believe that heterosexuality and its associated biological drives naturally resulted in paternalistic relationship structures where the man has absolute power and the woman is his willing subject. This dynamic was seen as natural and desirable as long as the man led in good faith. As such, men were active partners who showed initiative, while women were passive partners that responded to a man’s advances. Male passivity and female initiative were viewed as unnatural desires.
My tendency to treat others with soft-spoken gentleness and careful consideration instead of stern authority and quick decisiveness made me originally believe that I was incompatible with women despite being attracted to them. I also viscerally hated the idea of subjugating or controlling others because it felt evil. I wanted to work with a partner, not above her.
Additionally, I had fantasies about women initiating affection, taking active roles during intimacy, and expressing a primal hunger to take the reins, fantasies which I believed were impossible to fulfill because my upbringing taught me that female initiative fundamentally did not exist anywhere except in niche fetishes (e.g. femdom), and male passivity would be a turn-off.
The dynamic I find appealing is one in which a partner and I are excited to pursue each other’s pleasure by mutually initiating affection/intimacy and taking turns swapping between active and passive roles. My worry is that there aren’t a lot of women who have that drive to pursue their partners in an assertive manner. What is that impression based on, you ask? Not much, except the “values” I was raised with and the trashy adult sites that I’ve looked at over the years.
It may be worth noting that I hate BDSM and power exchange dynamics where one partner is subject to another’s command and absolute control. What I crave is a consensual, passionate, and attentive lead over someone’s pleasure from a place of love, not domination, and for that initiative to change fluidly between partners.
Is this something with a substantial presence in the real world? How might I find partners who see intimacy in this way as opposed to the “lay down and take it” model? Usually the people on Lemmy have a lot of decently helpful and non-regressive takes, so I’m interested in the opinions here. Thanks!
(And yes, I know that there’s a decent chance that I sound completely stupid and embarrassing here because I fell for a multi-generational psyop used to consolidate political power in the hands of evil men, but think about how many millions of people there are who wouldn’t even think to question this programming… Also, I don’t plan on pursuing a relationship yet because I’m still deconstructing the mountain of lies that I was fed and building my self-confidence, but I think I can make it there eventually.)
I can answer this without even bringing you an essay based on vast personal experience. Get this: you exist, and your circumstances and experiences are hardly uncommon. How could it be anything but highly likely that women who also don’t conform to those views also exist?
I really like this argument because the only response I can come up with is “I’m uniquely kinky/unlucky compared to everyone else” based on no real evidence
Maybe… maybe I’m not the main character…
The truth has no path, it’s all chaos
Woah, calm down there
you’re young, ladies your age can be crazy about sex as much as guys
there’s every experience out there if you’re willing to look beyond someone who isn’t as pretty as the other one.
I had fantasies about women initiating affection, taking active roles during intimacy, and expressing a primal hunger to take the reins
In my personal experience, this is pretty much the norm. Women can have just as much sex drive as men, and can express it just as “aggressively”. In every relationship I’ve had, there are times where I’ll initiate, times where she’ll initiate, and times where we’ll both look at each other with a “Yes. Right now.” look. Note that I’ve never been into any BDSM or other “exciting” kink stuff, I’m just talking about initiative and passionately expressing that “I want you” feeling.
Of course, this is a side of women you won’t see until you get with someone that both wants you and feels comfortable enough you to express it.
So long story short: What you’re looking for is pretty much the norm as far as I can tell.
It is very common for women to enjoy and enthusiastically participate in sex. It is less common for them to take the lead and give instructions, especially with a new partner.
I would recommend that first you just find someone who wants to have sex with you, and spend some time exploring each other, figuring out what the other likes and doesnt like.
Then, try to find someone who is also into your particular kink.
Crazy question but have you considered discussing this with your sexual partners?
Okay, okay, you’re not gonna believe this…
I don’t have any.
I never tried to date anyone precisely because I saw the kind of intimacy I wanted as impossible. I always just assumed that anyone I dated would flop over like a dead fish in bed, and that’s just not sexy to me. Up until this point, I believed that my own sexual drives were incompatible with everyone else’s and could only be satisfied through fantasy. Only now am I questioning if this is actually the case.
assumed that anyone I dated would flop over like a dead fish in bed,
Those women do exist. I have dated them. They were raised as you describe yourself being raised, and thought sexual relationships were entirely the man’s job. Sex was something that happened to them, not something they would actively pursue or direct.
Fortunately, the world has all types. You can absolutely find someone who wants the save dynamic you are looking for. Dating is trial-and-error so you’ll have to deal with some duds along the way, but you’ll get there.
The good news is that not only is what you want possible — it’s the normal default. That’s how most people who are not “deconstructing a mountain of lies” feel.
Don’t get me wrong, there’s nothing wrong with consensual sexual power play — but the emphasis is on consensual. People choose to be a sub or dom because they have agency in their sexuality, and feel that meets their needs best. A dom who does not respect consent is a rapist not a dom.
So yes again — women with normal sex drives do indeed like sex, and frequently initiate it. This dynamic can even evolve with age — women who hit their peak in their 30s can be positively ravenous about it. It is also normal to not have a high sex drive, or to only experience a sex drive under certain circumstances, such as when in a emotionally safe relationship, or with people you admire intellectually…
I’ll go out on a limb and say that working out your sexual needs, communication, abilities, expectations, etc. is an uncomfortable process for everyone. No amount of preemptive mental work can substitute for the actual experience of having sex and figuring it out that way. It’s a bumpy road, but if you’re doing your best to be respectful and embrace the process, you WILL figure it out.
Based on your posts you are overthinking it. It may sound harsh but it sounds a little bit like some incel-speak with a different twist. Your sexual fanatsies are just that, fantasies. It’s hard to fit in with the crowd but you don’t have to do it often to find someone.
Yeah, that’s kind of why I mentioned at the end that this post might sound kind of ridiculous to outsiders lol.
One of the main reasons it sounds like incel talk is because the bedrock of this insecurity is gender essentialism, which is an idea that was hammered into my head constantly and very painfully when I was young. Now, it’s an incumbent idea that I have to viciously fight against, because if I don’t, I default to the established prescriptivist view: that because I deviate from gender roles, the very core of who I am is wrong and incompatible with society, I’m not masculine enough to find love, and my desires aren’t compatible with women. These were not just made-up ideas either; they were socially reinforced by nearly every person I talked to in the conservative communities I lived in. I was a pariah because I was different, even in my own family.
I had to think about this stuff extensively because it was the only counter I had to their speech. If I unquestioningly accepted what everyone said about me, I would be dead right now. But because I am willing to spend the time to seek outside information and deconstruct the toxic ideologies that surround me in the real world, I am able to build self-confidence in the face of universal rejection. There was no mentor figure or safe haven in my life who I could talk to about these issues, so I ultimately faced a long, arduous journey of de-programming myself by seeking outside information through the Internet.
It might be hard to believe from this post, but I feel 100 times better about myself today than I did a decade ago. Today, I wholeheartedly accept who I am and believe that I am capable and worthy of love. I’m just trying to figure out how to make intimacy work with my unique attraction patterns, and I’m making good progress on that, too!
The question has already been answered, but I wanna let you in on a little secret; we are all dumb. Even the ones that you think are the smartest among us. They fumble some silly things all the time, just like you and me. Embrace the stupid, I say. Ask questions and be dumb! :)
Speaking of…anyone wanna tell a dumdum how to do spoiler text on here?
You’re right on the money. I’m pretty bright, but I make mistakes. Just yesterday I misunderstood somebody using the term “binary kids” (in reference to computer binary) here on Lemmy. I had to laugh about it. We’re all human, and it’s okay to make mistakes and learn from them.
As to spoiler tags, they’re kind of tricky. I have to test them with a preview whenever I use them.
Here’s an example of how to use them. If you copy/paste what I wrote below and remove the backslash at the start (which I’m only using to inactivate the tag, for demonstration purposes), you’ll have a template for making your own spoiler.
/ ::: spoiler spoiler
spoiler text
:::So if you type:
/ ::: spoiler And the big reveal is
An annoying way to mark-up text
:::It becomes:
And the big reveal is
An annoying way to mark-up text
One last note - keep the line spacing the way it is. If you don’t put the three parts on three different lines, the spoiler tag won’t work.
Wait til you find out about hexadecimal kids!
spoiler
like so?
Thanks for taking the time! Both to use this knewfound knowledge as well as to reward a snafu with a gaff; I will share something mildly embarrassing.
spoiler.
I got dog piled the other week when I revealed that I thought New England was a US state. All the homies got their dunks in and I giggled along, albeit red in the face and clearly begrudgingly lol. I’ve always been bad with places and names. Oh well :P
Edit: not quite “like so”, it seems. Let’s see if I can figure this out…
Edit 2: finally got it lol
Short answer is yes. Don’t let stereotypes or media sway you sexual desires have as much range as there are personalities in this world. Communication for your desires and their desires are key and when you are in a healthy functional relationship there should be a continuous discourse of those desires. From there you will discover if you are ultimately compatible in the long term.
The dynamic I find appealing is one in which a partner and I are excited to pursue each other’s pleasure by mutually initiating affection/intimacy and taking turns swapping between active and passive roles. My worry is that there aren’t a lot of women who have that drive to pursue their partners in an assertive manner.
I’ve been with my wife for almost 15 years, and we see eachother and equals, with our distinctive strengths and weaknesses. It feels natural from this point of view to equally desire eachothers, and to seek to please the other one. Don’t worry, you’ll eventually find the one.
The range of personalities is great. You will find all kinds of men. I’m an odd ball from what I have been told, but I believe in true equality to the point that I expect it. I’m 40, and did not know this was how I really felt when I was your age. It is just my natural disposition. I’m not going to chase someone. I expect to be inspired in the same way I will do my best to do for a partner when I feel motivated. I expect constant open communication like I provide and expect of myself. I have no narcissism or desire to lead but I can become anyone a partner needs or wants if asked from hard and fast to all night long to just cuddle. I have my curiosities too, but I care most about pushing a partner to the maximum we can explore even when that is a dynamic range of mostly minimums.
I’m but one type of person in a sea of many. Just saying this one exists if you go looking.
I grew up with the opposite expectations (that a grown woman’s sexuality should be a take charge sort of desire) and it took me a ridiculously long time to come to terms with what I like in the bedroom.
But in terms of daily life? No. Wanting a partner, a true partner who doesn’t expect you to make all the decisions is 100% normal, average, and healthy attitude. Wanting someone to initiate intimacy half the time is also not at all outrageous, nor do I think it unusual.
I always think that just because something turns you on, doesn’t make it a good way to run your life and certainly not the world! Those are different questions entirely.
ETA one of the things that helped me understand my own desires was realizing that submissive != passive, not at all. Even within the subset of women who might prefer you to lead in bed, there are more who will be active participants who want to please you, and in the process, get off themselves, yes? I think that passivity comes from fear.
And even more people are “vanilla”, as it’s called, and exactly like your fantasy above, into sex without power play, fun and loving sex.
Communication is the most important thing- I was feeling stuck in this pattern I my relationship of many years, feeling like all I could do was “give” the physical intimacy while my partner “received” it. After some conversation and a couple of false starts, she is doing a wonderful job at taking the initiative more and now it feels like more of a 50/50 thing. My point is, it’s definitely out there but you may need to work with someone to tell them what you want And be patient while your partner is trying something that may be new and unfamiliar.
Taking the lead, showing initiative and being enthusiastic takes energy. People are lazy. So if you are expected to let someone else do it, then that is an easy choice allot of the time.
Yes there are women all over that enjoy this role from time to time. The more comfortable you are with your partner; the more you can expect to see this behaviour in them.
Males and females are not that different. Your local community might be used to theese roles though.
Worth noting; people offten act the way they think you like them to act. They might think they are expected to wait for you to take charge. As you get familiar, that might change.
Talking may help
In my experience, a give and take partnership is the norm. In and out of the bedroom. Both parties should be excited to be spending intimate time together.
Let me shorten that for you: You are a bottom, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I disagree. I think OP is a switch and is struggling to find someone who is the same.
But isn’t a bottom purely passive/receptive/compliant though? I also fantasize about assertively directing my partner’s pleasure too and find the idea thrilling. I didn’t talk about it much in the post because that was more expected with traditional gender roles. Wouldn’t the right term for me be “switch” or “versatile”?
The reason I need my partner to be assertive still is because I need the back-and-forth aspect to get excited, like in a “You got me good, now it’s MY TURN!” kind of way.
You’re right. You sound more “switch” than any of the other terms. Although BDSM is the realm that term comes from, being a switch doesn’t require you to do anything you’re not comfortable doing. You don’t have to “power play” to enjoy taking turns initiating sex.
You’re not obligated to take on a label if you don’t believe it represents you. However, knowing the labels can help you find the kind of partner that’s compatible with you.
Switch women are absolutely out there (I’m one of them.) Yet for the longest time, I also internalized the idea that women couldn’t be dominant sex partners. It took my first experience with another woman to make me wake up and learn how to put my own needs first. At your age, I still wasn’t there yet. Although my experiences are only my own, I wouldn’t be surprised if there are other women your age that are still finding themselves sexually.
I wish you the best of luck, OP. It might take time to find the right partner, but you sound like an honest man that wants what’s best for both your partner and yourself. That’s the most important place to start.
It’s not common, but it should be.
Most women are passive in the bedroom and really struggle not to be.
I think it’s an extension of the social expectation for women to not take initiative and to instead be coveted.
