It’s something I struggle with. Some bad news comes out about some public persona doing something shitty and they get cancelled. But sometimes I really struggle with giving up the things they’ve made because I like them. There are also occasions where the person has been accused of something and it doesn’t seem true to me, or I think they’re genuinely sorry and have been punished enough, and the context isn’t being considered.
What do you think? Who do you feel conflicted about enjoying?
Both of the Linuses
Sebastian and Torvalds
Sebastian because most of the shit he’s been accused of has either been fixed openly, or was proven mostly false.
Torvalds because while he can be extremely rude, he generally only does it when the person deserves to be called out. It’s not like he’s going off at random people. Society says he should use more tact, but the dude is literally responsible for creating and now maintaining arguably the most important piece of the server software stack globally. There’s also a very high chance he’s on the spectrum.
Yeah people can complain Torvalds was rude all day, but fuck me if the people he yelled at couldn’t be aggressively disrespectful in bringing half-assed work to the table and doing damage or at best wasting other’s people time.
He’s the literal “You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole”. But if he wasn’t that way, I wonder if we’d have what we have. A nicer developer wouldn’t get the same attention.
You probably needed someone like him in a technical leadership role somewhere, the problem was that he became the face as well.
And when he acts shitty towards somebody, he does it publicly, where he himself can also receive the backlash from what he is doing.
He’s not attempting to build a reputation as being a nice guy or a thought leader or anything. He is getting shit done, and anyone that’s got a problem with it or him can either go do it better than him or stfu
At least the face isn’t steering the brain like most organizations!
I argue about this all the time, especially if you have to work with non-coders. People who don’t code do not understand the big picture.
Steve Wozniak is brilliant, and had Steve Jobs explain the vision and sell it to non coders.
For Microsoft. That was Ballmer.
If youre a tech lead who lets a group of marketing folks try to define the course of any application, you need someone really strong at communication to fight for you. Unfortunately, Linus didnt have one and ripping people a new asshole was the next best thing.
He’s self aware and for some reason that bothers me less than an asshole who denies being an asshole.
i’ve heard Torvalds be called rude but never “cancelled”.
I think there have been attempts to cancel Torvalds after he’s slapped down some idiot in a particularly harsh manner, but I don’t think they ever stick because he doesn’t go off on people unless they really try to do shit that would compromise the integrity of the kernel and didn’t take the message to fix/bail on something when it was previously provided.
As I recall, he also apologized for the slap down, which seems like it often helps with getting cancelled
How do you define “cancelled”?
As far as I can tell both Sebastian and Torvalds are just as successful (if not more) in their respective roles today as they were before any “controversies” surrounding them were made public.
I like the world building in Fifth Element and Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets. But Luc Besson is probably a rapist and certainly a sexual assaulter. I’ll watch his old stuff I already own but won’t put any more money towards it nor support any new projects.
Edit: oh, also he’s not “cancelled”. He came out with another movie this year or last, if I recall. 9 times our of 10, celebrities that say they were “cancelled” just had their feefees hurt by people on social media.
Also a pedo. From his wiki page:
Besson’s second wife was actress and director Maïwenn Le Besco, whom he started dating when he was 32 and she was 15 after having met three years earlier.[46] They married in late 1992 when Le Besco, 16, was pregnant with their daughter Shanna, who was born on 3 January 1993.[47][deprecated source] Le Besco later claimed that their relationship inspired Besson’s film Léon (1994), where the plot involved the emotional relationship between an adult man and a 12-year-old girl (played by then 12-year-old Natalie Portman).
Kevin Spacey is a fantastic actor.
His video about what happened is very surreal. It’s on YouTube. I think it’s tied to his House of Cards character but has dual meaning?
Indeed a great actor, but as a
Trekkerhuman being, fuck him for how he treated Anthony Rapp (the engineer from Star Trek Discovery).by RAPPS account, he was almost raped by spacey. and the other commenter was trying to defend him, hes not the one you should be going after.
Agreed.
He really is.
but hes been doubling down every since to deflect attention away, which pretty yucky. RAPP said hes over it? is he really, or he doesnt want to ruffle feathers in hollywood, which has more executives that are perverts.
Never got that. His eyes always seemed out of character.
Neil Gaiman. I’m extremely depressed that he’s actually a POS, and because I loved his work so much, I’m conflicted. His work itself seemed to have well interrogated values woven into it’s fiber, but I guess you never can tell.
Edit: really fucking bummed about Red Hot Chili Peppers too
man, this was the worst. but he’s not getting another dollar from me, the bastard. at least he’s not fighting Terry Pratchett’s estate over Good Omens.
speaking of which, Terry seems to have been just a great guy and was better than Neil anyway. It’s really helped me to let Neil go.
Helllll yeah! Terry Pratchett, but also I’m keeping ALL celebrity at arms length without heavy vetting at this point
Same with his ex? Wife Amanda Palmer. I love the Dresden Dolls and she’s been very inspirational but knowing she was in on it was fucked up.
This broke my damn heart. His work seemed to have the values I hold dear and be so insightful and then… he’s getting in the bath with girls who depend on him for housing.
I am thinking that power corrupts. I came up with that but you can use that phrase if you want.
I remember the moment news broke out, that I just got rid of all books he authored. The Sandman graphic novels, Coraline, American Gods, Stardust .etc
All I was looking forward to reading someday but nope.
If you had donated them, to a thrift store or maybe a library, it would’ve kept someone else from buying a new copy, which would give him money.
That’s what I’m struggling with. Throwing his content in the trash regardless of content 😩 I got sandman 1 omnibus for Christmas last year, ughhhhhh
If you want to feel better about ditching things, just donate them.
I haven’t gotten rid of mine but they’re all stowed away in a corner.
kiedis from scar tissue? or is there something new i missed?
Yeah, his memoir or whatever details him knowingly committing statutory of a 14 yo girl.
I have a theory that all writers are somewhat hypocritical. As an amateur writer myself (I write fan fiction and am also working on original work I hope to get published eventually), I find sometimes the moral messages I try to weave into my work are sometimes messages that I myself am struggling to live up to and writing is a way of trying to work through that
Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert. I have several of his print books and still enjoy reading them; ditto his old cartoons. They really spoke to me years ago, as a cubicle-coder.
hey, read the books you already own all you want. that doesn’t put anymore money in his pocket.
being “cancelled” doesn’t mean we stick our fingers in our ears and act like it didn’t happen. it just means being conscientious about funding the lives of people who are actively making the world a worse place.
this is a critical detail that I think people often miss
I think it’s wild that he’s the same man who made Dilbert trans and feminist in his tv show finale and it actually got kind of sincere.
I stopped liking dilbert when it became obvious that dilbert was becoming a side character so he could prop up PHB. Anything I’ve seen since then is just insufferable.
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I don’t enjoy or like public figures. Having never met them, I cannot like them. I do enjoy the works or products of some people, and knowing the person(s) who created something can influence my chances of consuming it.
There are some people who have done, or accused of doing bad things, but they have created works that I enjoyed.
AKA, I never “liked” Neil Gaiman. But I do like American Gods.
Fair. I wish the art people made wasn’t tainted by their behaviour.
Like I have a soft spot for Vince Neil even though he killed people drunk driving, because of how his poor little daughter died and how badly it’s affected him. I can’t help it.
I can get onboard with separate the art from the artist, mostly. Especially if you’re not paying for the content, arrgh.
I find it hard to look at them without thinking of what they did, though. It’s hard for me to see past the artist to the art, when the artist is so shitty. I mean, he’s right there in my face, and I know what he did, so that’s all I’m thinking about when they’re acting.
Public people should do everything they can to keep their private lives private. Some of them are very good at it, so it is possible.
and sandman too. unfortunately with neftflix being too stingy and gaiman have all the SA/SH accusations agains tthem, we wont have anymore series or shows out of his work.
H.P. Lovecraft
I kind of think that Lovecraft was doing about the least-worst thing he could with his absolutely massive trove of neuroses and phobias, which definitely included racism and xenophobia.
He was convinced that the universe was chaotic and horrifying and that the only thing we could hold on to for stability was racial purity, and that’s pretty fucked up, but he turned those feelings into spooky stories about interdimensional space monsters, which is certainly a lot better than writing political tracts or trying to convince everyone that the Armenians are actually to blame for all of our problems.
Therapy would have been even better, but writing spooky stories was better than some of the very real alternatives that other people were exploring in the 19-teens and twenties.
Lovecraft was my first experience with seperating the artist and the work. Since then, I’ve had to deal with it frequently but eventually you get used to it.
Those books are wild.
Turns out that the author that popularized the horror of the alien and unknown was a racist and xenophobic putz. Who would have guessed?
Lawrence Krauss did this awesome video about global warming for “skeptics” and deniers and it is so good
Only problem I can’t really share it because anyone who googles the name learns he’s all over the damn Epstein files
Oh wow.
Bill Cosby is a monster, but his stand-up special “Himself” is a master class on comedic story-telling.
Privileged white folk really don’t realize how much good Bill Cosby has done for poor kids. He contributed an insane amount to the community. He supported schools programs financially and helped a whole generation of black folk.
And when the news came out, you better believe we were all in the 5 stages of grief.
Just a complete 180 on his entire body of work. Like finding out Batman used homeless people for target practice. Or Jesus was a sith lord.
The only respect I’m ever going to give Bill Cosby, is how he stood up and criticized the black community for their ghetto-like behavior and how they continued blaming the white man for all of their problems. That took balls and only he could have done it because he’s black as well.
So uh I’m guessing that aligns with your beliefs. Please explain to me how white people didn’t fuck over black people? Obviously not all problems black people face are from white people, and obviously not ever single white person has fucked over a black person, but please explain how white people aren’t responsible for a lot of the problems black people go through right now please?
I’ve got a few pretty big counter examples of how they did right here that I’m sure you’d find interesting.
Excuse you? What I said did not speak of anything of what my beliefs are. You are just assuming in a baseless manner. That is in of itself, a huge problem with society today so thanks for being a demonstration of that problem.
Obviously not all problems black people face are from white people
So you went on this entire tirade of rambling and you say that snippet. How about you project some sources that example that little detail, instead of virtue-signaling the way that you have?
I bet you won’t. You’ll just take all of the virtuous self-patting upvotes of your little rant like you have, and provide me nothing in return, just petty downvotes. That’s exactly how I expect you to behave.
How come every time someone points out obviously racist coded stuff, the response is “well I didn’t directly say what my opinion was so how dare you, you’ll never know” like we don’t have reading comprehension and dog whistles.
Then you hone in on the one thing that might validate your blatantly obvious opinion, and tell me to give you sources, instead of actually answering my question.
Then you throw a tantrum saying I won’t give you what you want, and that if I don’t give you what you want, you’re right.
Even though you didn’t have the balls to answer my question.
Here’s a surprise for you, three examples of Problems Black People Can Have That Have Nothing To Do With White People, all of which I can personally attest to:
Black person cheated on their black spouse and they got divorced.
Black person’s car got a flat.
Black person’s favorite cereal was out at the grocery store.
Those problems don’t have anything to do with white people. But some related problems in those situations do.
The judge ordered way harsher child support of the black husband than a white husband would’ve had to deal with.
Cops harassed and threatened to arrest the black person trying to change a tire instead of offering help.
The person at the register accused the black person of stealing for no reason.
So yeah. Three examples. Bet you don’t have the balls to answer my question though.
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I really liked Chappelle show, but he’s really gone bad the last few years being anti trans and all. To say he’s canceled is a bit much, though. He’s still rich and popular, and selling tickets.
Well hes certainly not canceled. He just had a new Netflix special. Been getting them consistently the entire time.
It’s shocking to me how willing people are to hang out with Chappelle and even ride his dick, but I guess the Saudi thing showed that a lot of those folks who embed progressive values in their material are just playing characters.
anti-trans is popular with the right wingers, incel crowd.
Yeah but I mean outwardly progressive people with an entertainment career to think about.
and him being in saudia arabia, and furthering his anti-trans comedy is just adding to the fire.
I don’t think he’s actually anti-trans, he just likes making jokes about them and refused to be cowed by people telling him to stop. Just my sense of it though.
There are jokes punching up, and jokes punching down.
Chapelle is in a position of punching down, here.
So he’s just a shithead asshole instead of a bigot? Pretty lateral move, honestly, if he doesn’t even believe in the bigotry he spreads.
He quit his show because bigots were using his material to laugh AT black people instead of WITH them. But he’s more than happy to change the butt if the joke so he can still feel good about the jokes he makes instead of having to be self reflective.
I agree with you. I don’t think he’s anti-trans. I think he’s incredibly insensitive.
What I truly believe here is that his perspective is that it’s progressive to make jokes about groups that are historically off limits because doing so breaks a social barrier. That’s what I think he believes and I think he’s getting it wrong.
I don’t think social mores factor into it all for him. When he said he finds the position of trans people genuinely funny, I think he was being honest. I do think he went too far with his jokes about them, simply in terms of sheer number; it was a social faux pas that strained the credulity of his stated position, but I personally believe him when he says he just finds the whole situation very funny.
I think he doesn’t care what other people think of his comedy at this point, and I don’t really have an opinion on that. I suppose I sort of respect it, but I also think he’s definitely passed into the realm of bad taste at this point. I don’t think he means anything bad by it though. Maybe he is insensitive, but comedians aren’t known for their sensitivity. I understand the criticism against him for it and think it’s valid.
I’m not defending the offensiveness of his jokes, just stating that I think they’re just jokes to him, and he doesn’t actually mean them in a mean-spirited light. If I were to talk to him about it, I would probably ask him how he feels about White comedians that make jokes about Black people, who also claim they’re not advocating anti-Black views, and just find the humor in their situations. I imagine he might reveal himself to be quite the hypocrite under that line of questioning. Most of us are hypocrites.
I honestly think that he is a subversive ally.
Like, the things that he says, the way that he says them pisses off trans people and gets the anti-trans people on his side.
But then he also preaches a philosophy of live and let live, do whatever the fuck you want to do, just leave me alone and let me live my life, which also goes to his enemies.
So there are probably people who have transphobia, who like Dave Chappelle, who leave trans people alone, or quickly identify themselves to trans people by making a Dave Chappelle joke or reference, and therefore, incidentally, protect trans people from interacting with people that might otherwise do bad things to them.
I could be wrong. He might just be an asshole. He probably is an asshole either way. I’m not a stan for him, but that’s the vibe that I get from his whole act.
The problem with that is that the libertarians that attracts are hypocrites. They don’t let live, just like Chapelle himself isn’t letting live.
It’s easy to say “live and let live” when you’re in a relative position of unassailable authority.
It’s easy for someone with the means to do whatever they want to say “everyone should be able to do what they want”.\I should be allowed to mock you, but you shouldn’t be allowed to do anything about it
Are you suggesting violence as an appropriate response to his commentary?
Have you encountered anyone who has been emboldened to commit either emotional or physical crimes against another person because of something Dave Chappelle has said or done?
If so, then I’m more than willing to change the way I view his schtick, but I cannot find any correlation between an increase in any sort of hurt or violence towards trans people, and anything Dave Chappelle has said or done.
I think he’s serving as a pressure release valve for the people who have never encountered a trans person (who was not masking their transness) or who have suddenly been thrust into the realization that the world contains trans people and don’t know how to cope with it.
Therefore I feel like the things that he says have an overall net positive effect on the way trans people are treated, even though he himself looks and sounds like a piece of shit saying it and that he offends trans people when he says it.
Are you suggesting violence as an appropriate response to his commentary?
What the fuck?
Have you encountered anyone who has been emboldened to commit either emotional or physical crimes against another person because of something Dave Chappelle has said or done?
That is crazy disingenuous. If you’re this passionate about the subject then you know full well it’s not the work of a single person, it’s normalized a little at a time, bit by bit, until people do feel emboldened to take action. Chappelle is part of the problem, and as a very public figure then it’s even less ok to let it slide, because people take cues about what is ok and what isn’t from public figures.
And if you’re going to say that trans people aren’t already the subject of discrimination, than we cannot have a civilized discussion.
“I should be allowed to mock you, but you shouldn’t be allowed to do anything about it” < your words
Isn’t not giving Dave Chappelle money or time or attention the grand sum of things that you can do about his stance without violence?
I think you and I have had interactions elsewhere on Lemmy, and typically they’re very antagonistic and I don’t know why that is.
I earnestly try to be a reasonable person and to express my views without judgment of other people.
I do this in hopes that debate produces something positive, but from what I remember, typically, no matter what I say to you, your response is to exacerbate the argument rather than resolve it.
Sometimes other people have views that do not mesh with yours, yet they are not your enemy.
I know trans people. I have trans friends. I live in a very progressive area by choice. I have gone to protests to protect women and trans people alike.
I am an ally, and if you think that me believing or having a reason to believe that Dave Chappelle is also an ally makes me not an ally, then that’s pretty much the end of the conversation, right?
“do anything about it” doesn’t have to mean violence. What the fuck? Why is that the first thing you jump to?
Isn’t not giving Dave Chappelle money or time or attention the grand sum of things that you can do about his stance without violence?
Yes, that is the do anything about it that I’m talking about. The thing Chapelle calls cancel culture, and fights against. So if violence isn’t allowed and neither is organizing to have a voice as loud as his, then what is allowed besides letting him have his way?
makes me not an ally
I don’t choose who is or isn’t an ally.
If the consensus of the trans community is supporting Chapelle, then I’ll shut up about it because I’d clearly be mistaken, but that doesn’t seem to be the case afaict, which aligns with my understanding of why Chapelle is problematic in general; he uses libertarianism as a carte blanche to pick on minorities. this just demonstrates how libertarianism is ironically discriminatory in practice, but it teaches bigots a language to defend themselves with.I earnestly try to be a reasonable person and to express my views without judgment of other people. […] typically, no matter what I say to you, your response is to exacerbate the argument rather than resolve it.
How am I supposed to interpret this, from someone who immediately accused me of supporting violence and then doubled down on that accusation?
I doubt he’d go around punching/harassing transpeople (but correct me if I’m wrong, of course, I’m not dying on the Dave Chapelle hill, lol), he might just disagree with some of the current Western culture around it and understanding of it.
“It’s not like he goes around assaulting trans people, he just disagrees with the current culture of letting trans people be who they are instead of masking and hiding themselves”
Yeah while I think Chapelle is entitled to free speech as a comedian and all that, his doubling- and tripling-down with the trans jokes are not only unfunny, they are embraced by bigots and embolden their subsequent hateful rhetoric and actions. If Chapelle actually cared one iota about trans people, he would just tell jokes about literally anything else. It’s not like there’s a shortage of topics to poke fun at.
He’s a petulant, obstinate, man baby and deserving of all the backlash he has received. I honestly think he must be washed up and creatively tapped since he won’t let the trans jokes go.
It’s just step one of his transformation into Clayton Bigsby.
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This one hurts because he really pushed an art form.
Cartoons were not at all well respected as a method of storytelling back in the day. And Walt threw himself into the fire pretty often to strike success and build the Disney empire.
Die Antwoord. The music tickles a particular part of my brain, but they’re accused of some truly heinous shit.
I have a weird interest in South African rock music. I would buy SA CD compilations on ebay and discogs Nd listen to all the cool SA bands. One of them had a track by an artist called Max Normal. The track fucking slapped. No one in the US has heard of these SA artists I listen to. One day I mention my interest to a coworker and he said something like “oh man, you should check out Die Antwood.” So, I did. I’m reading about Die Antwood and I had a holy fuck moment. They were the same artist on that compilation CD. They changed their name to Die Antwood. The artist of an obscure track on a compilation CD I have went on to become an internationally known artist. I also found out they are pretty shitty people. Life is crazy sometimes.
Do I dare ask? I have this sinking feeling it’s racism related…
Typical dodgy celebrity stuff, support young artists get them high, rape…
And then there’s Racism, and exploiting kids
I think Ninja told some girl he wanted to fuck her after he told her she looked like his daughter.
I don’t know about that but I saw something about how they just like, kept a kid? Like in a basement? From one of their videos
I was talking about them in this thread because I’m also a fan, and I don’t believe a word that Tokkie said. I think they’re not great people but I think that’s all horseshit.
This is going to get buried, but I miss Bill Cosby, or rather my mental model of him before all that nastiness came out.
Understood. The TV show was totally hilarious.
The Cosby Show is still a good classic show with a lot of humor and heart. It is tainted now though. Really creepy in retrospect that Cosby plays a doctor with exclusively female patients he sees in the basement
Ugh, that was the scene I kept thinking of when it all came out
this was my answer was well. i haven’t seen it in a while but his “himself” special was my favorite stand up ever
Louis C.K
The reason he got cancelled was so stupid and everyone made it seem like he raped countless women. Also, he asked permission to do what he did. If anyone around him at that time didn’t like the sound of him doing what he asked permission for, they could’ve said ‘No’ and he wouldn’t have done it. I just didn’t see Louis being that kind of unreasonable guy but that’s what they demonized him as. I think it was all a ploy, to trap him to do what he did so they could demonize him that way.
The only reason I don’t care of him that much these days is because I’m being introduced to more comics, that I am finding Louis’ material very samey. Like always going on about his kids, family life .etc
He has even admitted himself that he was in a position of power over those women and that makes it considerably harder to say no when the person asking could make or break your career.
But I don’t see someone like Louis capable of doing that. If he’s about as upfront as he is in his stand-up, I can’t see him swinging his influence around like that.
He actually said he wielded power irresponsibly. In actuality, I think he handled it as well as one could in his situation. He at least asked. Though he could’ve also asked if he could excuse himself or they could excuse themselves so he can have privacy, something. It could’ve totally flipped over on its head if he just went and did it in a way like “ah fuck these women around me, I wanna jerk off”.
There were far more worse offenders that MeToo brought out than him in comparison.
I found this one difficult. Like they were comparing him to all the other MeToo incidents, like Cosby and Weinstein.
Which is like, there is a serious gradient of crime here. And weighing it all equally like it’s black or white is problematic.
My tinfoil hat is all that accusation and black/white style of blame is what led to the manosphere gaining so much power and attention.
There was a period of time when MeToo was at it’s height that there was very little nuance in how people reacted to any abusive behavior. Probably related to a dam bursting releasing emotions that had been pent up with these things going unpunished, and mostly ignored, for so long. And you’re right, during this time people who should have apologized and shown some sort of behavior that made us believe it was sincere should have been able to return to public life after a period in the wilderness instead of being treated the same (socially, obviously they didn’t get the same legal treatment) as Weinstein and Cosby.
I don’t think your theory is tinfoil hat territory at all. I think a majority of people could go either way in life, on a wide range of things. Most people don’t really give anything a lot of thought, they just fall into patterns dictated by their environment. If someone in their formative years is exposed to something that tickles their sense of unfairness and that leads them into shittier areas of the Internet, a person that could have ended up a nice, normal, boring person can be turned into a piece of shit.
Louis CK
I think you mean Lewis CK :)
I heard someone went on a date with him and he bought some insanely expensive watch on it. I think he didn’t deal with the loneliness of fame well.
Thanks, I noticed it was wrong as soon as I hit post. Yeah, seems like he didn’t deal with a lot of things too well. At least he seems genuinely contrite about his mistakes.
I’m not trying to apologize for his behavior, but in my read of the situation, he ASKED women if he could jerk off in front of them and sometimes did even without permission, but at no point does it seem like they were held hostage, touched physically or threatened. If he asked ME (hetero guy) I’d have just walked away and thought “what a weird asshole”.
The biggest problem is that he was in a position of power over those women and that makes it considerably harder to say no when the person asking could make or break your career.
