I was raised to address strangers and those I wish to show social deference to as “Sir” or “Ma’am”. It’s a difficult habit to break, as it is deeply engrained.
What is an equivalent gender neutral honorific that is relatively common in English? If I can’t break the habit I’d rather have a substitute word to use instead of an awkward pause in the middle of addressing someone
I’d just use Google to ask but I’d rather ask the people directly rather than an AI generated answer based off of Reddit threads
ETA: I suppose if Yessir and Yes’m work, Yesn’t could too? Mostly joking… but maybe… 🤔
“OI CUNT” 🇦🇺
Scotland approves 🏴
FWIW, Sir is gender neutral in the military — this came up in Star Trek Voyager, anyway. Basically if your senior officer isn’t male, they’re sir until they tell you otherwise.
Sir is gender neutral in fictional militaries. Every woman holding a commission I ever encountered was ma’am. Didn’t matter the country.
Yes, Star Trek is fictional.
But the way you’ve formatted your first comment is “this thing is a military thing, as can be seen from this fictional military” which doesn’t necessarily imply said thing is fictional even though the military you’ve used as an example is.
Sir hasn’t been gender neutral in my military for like 30 years at least
Not really…
Like, yeah, probably in Star Trek, but that would have been a projected evolution of modern society, not a reflection of current reality.
Everyone would assume “sir” and if it’s over an email no one is getting worked up about it.
But call a female officer “sir” to her face and I don’t think it will go well
Not sure what military you served in, but the one I served in definitely didn’t call women sir until instructed otherwise. However, “mister” may be correct for all warrant officers.
I served in the US Air Force. Everyone was “Sir” or “Ma’am” and it was very gender-specific. Even for the few years we allowed transgender folks to serve (before Trump banned them), you referred to them by their preferred transition title.
We don’t have warrant officers in the Air Force, so I can’t speak to their title of address.
Same, USAF but decades ago. It was actually the USAF protocol office I called to verify the “mister” address for WO. Not because we had them, but because they still have protocol for how to address them, generally army chopper pilots if I recall.
eta: I should also clarify that I don’t know that to be true. It could easily be one of those ID-10t situations where somebody tricked us into calling protocol and they went along with it. Could be complete bullshit.
When I served (2002-2022), we were always told that warrant officers are technically officers, so treat them the same as any officer. So we would’ve addressed them as Sir or Ma’am if we came across them. As well as saluting them if we met them outside.
I don’t recall ever addressing anyone as “Mister” in the service. Heck, I retired a few years ago and now I feel weird when people call me Mr. [Last Name]. I got so used to being called by my rank and last name for 2 decades. Mister just sounds wrong.
Um, Starfleet… as mentioned (Star Trek Voyager… Star Trek’s Starfleet is inspired by the Navy).
I never served… Mostly due to health reasons
Oh I misunderstood you. I thought you were using the Star Trek reference as just a supporting claim that militaries follow this practice. But I see now you meant only in that context.
Yeah, I meant that Star Trek did it, and Star Trek is (supposed to be) based on the Navy, so as one who’s never served, I really only have Star Trek Voyager (which had a female captain) to go by.
With female bosses, I’ve always asked them if they want to be called sir or ma’am. It sounds like a good way to catch hands, but if you ask out of respect and good faith, chances are you’ll be answered in kind.
Mage
I’ve seen enough posts related to etymology or historical use of words where they, either misrepresent the facts to fit a narrative or just make shit up, that I try to look it up my self. I also find etymology fascinating so that helps.
In this case they are absolutely right.
Both Mr and. Mrs,ms are derived from master and mistress (teachers) and both of those words stem from the Latin word Magister.
Edit: fun fact the English verb stick is the same word as the noun stick and comes from the same origin the Germanic word stik which also meant a piece of wood and to pierce/adhere or sharp. But wait it’s older than that the Latin word stigare also means pierce. And share the same ancestry, namely indo-european. Turns out we humans have been talking about sticks for a long time.
I am legit going to use Magister as a replacement option for Mr/Mrs. It’s formal, archaic, and gender neutral. That’s the trifecta right there
…why not just “magister” and avoid a word that already has very strong, current connotations with fantasy?
I mean, mages are pretty cool. 🧙♂️
Let’s hit “magister” and then work our way down. I swear to god I’d change the shit out of my pronouns to fit mage.
The issue, I guess, is that Mr./Ms. have had centuries to be normalized into common use, whereas “magister” still holds a bit of prestige or honor to it. I’m just spitballin’. I’m definitely going to read more into this when I have some time.
Although it was also my first choice, magister is masculine. Latin is a gendered language (with more than just m/f) and AFAIK magister isn’t neutral.
It doesn’t have to carry that genderedness into English.
…crap, I’m cis male and I wanna be addressed as “mage”…
You can just do that ya know. Just be a wizard. Tell people to address you as such. Don’t even have to be trans you can change your name and everything
I work with magical lights that spring forrh from runes written in gold powered by ancient ichor and magic rocks.
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Having worked in the retail sector for some time, I quickly learned that appearances are often deceiving after a few embarrassing blunders on my part. I taught myself to call everyone ‘my friend’. I had no more problems after that.
Comrade
I was raised in southern hospitality, so I know exactly what you’re going through.
I just stopped using pronouns altogether.
“Excuse me” “Thank you” “I appreciate you” “Do you know the way to San Jose”
Turns out 99% of interactions don’t depend on what genitals a person’s rocking. I guess if you’re asked to identify a suspect in a crime it might help? Point being, stop focusing on their crotch and what they’re doing with it 😁 you’ve been trained to be weird about it.
I just stopped using pronouns altogether.
“Excuse me” “Thank you” “I appreciate you” “Do you know the way to San Jose”
ALL of these have pronouns. At least one of them has multiple pronouns! Haha
What are talking about? Said it perfectly fine, are being intentionally dense. Sorry but people like annoy the shit out of.
(“it” is also a pronoun")
Oh fuck…
Sorry, meant gender pronouns.
Everyone with a brain knew what you meant, don’t worry.
Didn’t be a pedant, and don’t laugh after being a pedant. It’s condescending and rude.
*pedant
Damned auto correct
Lol i feel ya
‘San’ is gendered /s
Personally, I like “Sir” as in the Star Trek/Orville usage. It did happy things to my brain when the crew on the Orville referred to Commander Kelly Grayson (a cis woman) as “Sir”, respectfully referring to her by her proper title as a commanding officer. That was cool. I like the gender neutral “Sir” a lot.
But for casual usage, “Friend” or “Neighbor” is nice. “Hey, neighbor, you dropped this.” “Excuse me, friend, lemme reach around you here.”
I also like this interpretation. It’s the same gender neutral connotation as the Cali surfer “dude” or “bro” used equally with everyone.
I am a believer in the gender-neutral California ‘dude’. But only if it’s used by someone from the West Coast.
Similar to “boi”
Yeah I think “sir” trumps madam because it’s professional
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Ok so reading the comments, from Appalachia, and I didn’t see it about anyone specific.
So the reason why nothing seems correct is because nothing new will have the same level of cultural history. If you’re trying to show social deference to people things like “friend” or “pal” won’t work, and “chief” sounds too informal.
You can still use “sir” and “ma’am” under most circumstances, so the question is more about your circumstances.
Are you trying to find something that replaces those honorifics all together, or do you want a backup third option in case someone says they are non binary?
Are you still in the same culture, or have you moved to a culture that doesn’t emphasize honorifics like you were raised with?
You’re amazing and so are your questions.
I’m looking for a third option for sir/ma’am, and a substitute for Chief that’s a bit more formal.
The culture I’m in now is not as formal, this isn’t so much finding something to work within the culture of this area as it is to marry my culture to the one I find myself in. I have very little to connect me to my people here and so the traditions I choose to keep are more important as a result. I like saying sir/ma’am. It’s the verbal equivalent of holding the door open for someone. But for some people being addressed that way is invalidating, and I want to meet people where they are, not force them to come to me.
I like Magister as a third option for Mr/Mrs., and Professor as a more formal Chief. But sir/ma’am has me stumped
Well if you want to keep a similar motif, Cap’n is vaguely formal, vaguely military esque, and it’s gender neutral. Could be seafaring or land based.
You probably won’t find anything with the same level of formality as sir/ma’am, so you’re going to have to compromise a little bit on that front, but I think people will like the attempt regardless!
Not OP but I think that’s a darn good suggestion.
Reminds me of Dana calling Dr Robby «Cap» on The Pitt.
I truly admire your intent in this quest of yours. Admirable.
♥️
As a foreigner whose native tongue has gendered nouns and adjectives: we default to sir to sir-presenting people, ma’am to ma’am presenting, and "sir? ma’am? " when unsure and clarification is needed.
I do not understand why you’d want to preemptively force gender someone by choosing a neutral/or newspeak/ form of address - to me it seems much much much worse than defaulting to asking for preference (“sir? ma’am?” option is the best - it declares you’ve noticed the interlocutor is a nb and passes the ball to them).
If you’re looking for 1 word that would always work, I recommend embracing your inner old British Lady and calling everyone pet (petal), dear or love. :-)
Clearly we need to start adopting Japanese honorifics that way we can just call people -san.
There’s like, 20 or more honorifics in Japanese. I think that -sama is more culturally equivalent for the Appalachian sir/ma’am, but those honorifics, iirc, usually have to go with a name or a job or something, while the Appalachian sir/ma’am can be used with strangers.
M’theydy
Hat tipping intensifies
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This one bugs me a bit. I’m sure it’s said with good intentions, but I have a client who calls everyone on my team “friend” whether or not she knows us, and it always rubs me the wrong way. We’re not friends, she’s the client in a professional setting, and she has never shown any interest in getting to know me enough to actually call me “friend” and have it mean something, so it always comes across as superficial and unnaturally folksy.
As someone who doesn’t have a ton of deep friendships, the ones I do have matter a lot to me, which means I don’t like to throw around the word “friend” lightly.
Could just be my own emotional hangups though.
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Friend-o. And carry a coin.
I’ve asked people to call me ‘it’. Hasn’t happened yet.
Yesn’t, I can do that
I thought ‘it’ was a third person pronoun.
just don’t use any honorifics.
problem solved.
I work in 911 dispatch, understandably once in a while I get a caller who is just absolutely losing their mind over whatever is going on that they’re calling about
And sometimes pretty much the only thing I can do to grab my callers attention and bring them back around to listening to me is to just kind of repeat sir/ma’am until I get their attention they come back around to realizing I’m trying to talk to them.
If I can get their name, I use that instead and it’s more effective, but that’s not always a given.
Just sitting there in silence until they get their shit together on their own doesn’t work, and more likely they’re going to just hang up on me.
And repeating whatever question I need answered really just kind of goes in one ear and out the other while they continue going off.
Their name or sir/ma’am is punchier, it has a way of cutting through their panic and grabbing their attention saying “you are being addressed right now and the person addressing you needs your attention”
And I really wish we had a good, gender-neutral equivalent of that. It needs to be polite and professional, and maybe a bit authoritative-sounding, so something like “dude” obviously won’t cut it.
And I need it both for trans/non-binary people, and people whose gender just isn’t clear on the phone because they’re in a panic, calling from a potato, and/or just have a somewhat ambiguous voice.
Normally I just have to pick one and go with it, and they’ll either correct me (in some cases, choosing the wrong one might actually be more effective at grabbing their attention because astonishingly (/s) people don’t enjoy being misgendered and they jump at the opportunity to correct that) or they also just roll with it.
But I’d really like to avoid that if I can, and I haven’t really found a good option for it yet.
Honorifics are part of my culture and tradition. I’ve let go of a lot of other things from my culture that interfere with loving my neighbor, but there’s certain social mores I don’t want to abandon. Honorifics are a way of showing respect to others in my culture, it is as ingrained as taking off one’s hat and standing for a funeral procession.
Korean is easier, just call everyone Teacher. Problem solved.
I’d low key support using teacher. You could pull it off. If everyone can be “my friend,” which is used, they can be teacher. Sends a nice mssg. Even if they are not my friend, they can be my teacher
I’m gonna use Professor if I want something more formal than Chief
Curious about your culture, in the North American anglosphere at least Professor has some negative/sarcastic connotations if you’re not actually a professor (essentially suggesting someone is a dumbass). Just be careful with that one.
Thank you, that is a valid concern.
It’s all about tone. I’m most concerned about in-person interactions, and tone and intent is easier to convey in that type of encounter. I used to be a very sarcastic PoS, so I’m pretty aware of how to use words and tone The result is I’m pretty good at conveying earnestness and empathy. My challenge is that my speech patterns for polite formal are heavily engrained, so I’m looking for substitutes that flow with my existing speech patterns.
Also this has been a fascinating discussion and I’m loving all of the responses and suggestions, including yours. Thank you for contributing :-)
the word you mean (선생님) is quite different from ‘teacher’ tho, can’t think of an english equivalent of that word…
Could… could it be summed up… like considering cultural context, including historical respect for certain vocations, and Confucian influences in earlier centuries, as a word like, I don’t know, Teacher?
I kid I kid, i get what you’re saying, but teacher is generally accepted as the English translation for 선생님 to the best of my knowledge. Granted, I haven’t studied the language for almost 20 years but I think that’s still the case, yes?
Also, and genuinely curious here, what is used for “teacher” in a school setting? Like I can see a little kid saying 제 선생님은 재미있서 because of how 선생님 is used. But if a teenager said their teacher sucks what word would they use?
honestly i’m not sure lol
you’re right but that’s mostly in the context of students referring to their teachers, i had the impression it’s quite different from the way it gets used as a second person pronoun or as a way of showing respect to someone.
Also, and genuinely curious here, what is used for “teacher” in a school setting? But if a teenager said their teacher sucks what word would they use?
선생님 is the primary way of refering to teachers, but if one’s being rude they might as well say “선생” (without the “님”) or their name, nickname, etc…
english isn’t my primary language so i’m not sure if my comment makes sense lol
Oh yeah, dropping the 님 makes total sense, I just didn’t know if there was another word used besides “선생” for teacher in a general sense.
Don’t worry about your English, it’s better than mine and I’m a native speaker and occasional pedant. Your comment absolutely makes sense.
that sucks.
Check their question again. It’s pretty ingrained in some dialects
Chief is the only correct answer.
I often call people chief. One time I started to say Yessir, realized midway the person I was taking to might not appreciate the label, tried to change lanes and say Yeah, Chief, and wound up saying Yes Chef.
We had a really good conversation about The Bear TV series afterwards
I mean chef literally means chief
