Far more animals than previously thought likely have consciousness, top scientists say in a new declaration — including fish, lobsters and octopus.
Bees play by rolling wooden balls — apparently for fun. The cleaner wrasse fish appears to recognize its own visage in an underwater mirror. Octopuses seem to react to anesthetic drugs and will avoid settings where they likely experienced past pain.
All three of these discoveries came in the last five years — indications that the more scientists test animals, the more they find that many species may have inner lives and be sentient. A surprising range of creatures have shown evidence of conscious thought or experience, including insects, fish and some crustaceans.
That has prompted a group of top researchers on animal cognition to publish a new pronouncement that they hope will transform how scientists and society view — and care — for animals.
Nearly 40 researchers signed “The New York Declaration on Animal Consciousness,” which was first presented at a conference at New York University on Friday morning. It marks a pivotal moment, as a flood of research on animal cognition collides with debates over how various species ought to be treated.
Considering that as sentient beings ourselves, we don’t really even understand sentience, it’s kinda bold to assume we’ve got a monopoly on it.
Similarly I wonder how much of the observation is projection. We don’t know what the bee thinks it’s getting out of rolling the ball around, we don’t know that the fish was actually reacting to seeing itself. At some level we’re assuming that’s what’s going on because it makes sense to us.
We are limited by our own understanding and imagination, but I don’t know any other explanation for silly little nonproductive activities other than “play”. Is it because it is play, or is it beyond our understanding? We can’t communicate with them, but we can draw parallels between their behaviors and our own natural behaviors.
Humans have a really, really hard time NOT assigning human attributes to every other living thing.
One thing that makes this hypothesis seem possible, is that some researchers are suggesting consciousness is external, and eternal. Meaning all living things are essentially antennae.
That really reeks of “scientists invent God.” And I question the actual motives of any researcher that would suggest such an idea.
Show me the data that suggest that. Describe a test that might prove it.
I think Penrose was talking about devising one. What do you think the motives would be?
Source?
This is basic, but there are thousands of lectures, books, and papers on it, going back to the 80’s.
https://youtu.be/Ci2npsJIvFc?si=Vaf2Z9m6MLsbgMjR
Or anything with Donald Hoffman, which there is a ton.
Basically, our brain just handles our cognitive needs, and filters consciousness, which is a fundamental property of the universe. Think what you will, but this is a pretty popular theory in the past decade or so. Among physicists and neurologists alike…
So, there’s a chance that there’s an afterlife, I mean if the brain isn’t the SOURCE of conciousness? But are you sure it’s popular? I heard neurologists were strictly “Brain is the source”
With a couple of perfect millennia of perfect human development and advances in all fields, we probably wouldn’t think of these versions of ourselves as more or less sentient than other thing populating Earth.
Sure, they paint caves & make 10s videos, but that’s just natural automation, a response to environment, simply not knowing better.
I dunno about all that, but I used to have an African fish that would always get the zoomies when I’d come home from work. He’d spit water at me or gravel at the glass to get my attention, and loved playing hide and seek and always brushed up on my hands when I was working on his tank. He never reacted this way to visitors, just me.
Exactly this.
And to get to this you need experience, research, and knowledge.
And trying to explain this to humans in general would take several generations in best case scenario (much less actually doing/changing anything with that knowledge).
Usually anything attacking the doctrine of how extra super special & way more unique than other equally unique species are is meet with severe (auto-?)hostility.
Even without our status in question, just the “threat” of something being slightly less/differently inferior to us is immediately attacked by the vast majority.
And once we decide something is inferior to us it takes extra effort to change the popular belief (like racism between humans as well - just designate some human as non-human & they are considered about as much as billions of yeast bacteria as we are baking bread).
I think the auto-hostility is just hubris. Some people would like to pretend they know everything about everything. So when learning new things they get hostile because, oh no, we found them out.
Especially in today’s environment, I agree, hubris and greed.
What was obvious to most of us as kids (and what was attempted to be beaten out of us as kids) is now being accepted by scientists. Love it.
Right, I had no idea scientists were trying to say these animals weren’t sentient. Stupid scientists.
Wasn’t this already obvious?
We don’t even know what sentience/sapience/whatever is. We have some thoughts, people argue about the definitions, and stuff; but really… it all comes down to… “are they like us”… but we don’t even really know what that means.
So no. It’s not obvious. (Particularly because humans are surprisingly stupid.)
To people who spend a lot of time around animals or even sea creatures, it may be obvious that they’re more like us than most would assume.
Well, maybe, but it sure as he’ll isn’t convenient.
Denying such things in other animals has been part of a long-standing, mainly Western, push for human exceptionalism
Not to people indoctrinated by Abrahamic religions.
Yes.
My first, second, third and fourth thought. I didn’t have a fifth.
I mean people have been pushing for recognition of this for at least a few thousand years so I’d say yes.
The lengths people are willing to go in self delusion for a burger are astounding though.
Some people are just straight up fine eating beef because they don’t care. Like, we won the food chain, and that’s enough for them
You really said “we won the food chain” like you wouldn’t run screaming from a slightly pissed off badger haha.
What a fucking absurd stance, the school of “if I can do it: it must be fine to do” ethics.
I didn’t say it’s my opinion, you silly goose.
The lack of critical thinking here is insane
Edit: the whole way we won the food chain isnt about standing toe to toe with any animal, we productionized their whole existence.
Beyond that I don’t know how you could know what animals I am or am not afraid of, that’s a pretty silly assumption
Uh huh, I believe you. You’re so tough and smart and strong, bravely debating and owning the libs, casually fighting badgers armed with nothing but your Jordan Peterson body pillow.
To think that Aldous Huxley was known as the last Renaissance man when you were among us all along.
Ok not sure what I’m debating here, is it really a point of argument that some folks are fine with consuming meat? Is it really a point of argument that humans are at the top of the global food chain?
Edit are you just 3 badgers in a trench coat?
the school of “if I can do it: it must be fine to do” ethics
Some people would call this the “law of the jungle”, or the natural state of things.
It’s also not reasonable to assume any one person would run screaming from a badger. People wrestle crocodiles and mountain lions and win.
If anyone thinks that I hope they get hunted by a sadist, are kept as their plaything, and live a long life begging for death.
It’s a completely asinine opinion that absolutely nobody worth giving a modicum of time or respect to maintains. There’s not even any point talking about, it’s like chiming in with the fact that some people think smearing shit on toilet walls is the correct thing to do when discussing how to grow food.
Also anyone who gets defensive about the idea they would run screaming from a moderately pissed off badger has never interacted with a badger and would absolutely run screaming from one.
This is self evident to any animal lover
This reads like “scientists find that women have emotions and feeling and can feel pain”
It’s self evident to anyone not plagued by speciesism, regardless of their feelings about animals; I don’t think we ought to allow that much latitude to opt-out of the obvious moral consequences of this truth.
It seems odd to me that this article is framing octopodes as a surprising inclusion. Aren’t they generally known to be some of the most intelligent animals of all?
This raises some interesting questions. The premise of these scientists is that consciousness can be quantified empirically. Yet many of the tests described in this article can be passed by machines. Does that mean that the scientists who signed the declaration consider some smart devices to demonstrate consciousness? And what are the implications?
These arguments never make much sense because there’s no broadly accepted philosophical consensus on what sentience is.
I agree with this. I’ve read the statement that the scientists wrote and I honestly could not figure out what they are trying to say. I just don’t see how any of the tests they reference would challenge the idea that we don’t know how to define or test consciousness.
Sentience is not necessarily the same thing but its in a similar place. It may be possible to test depending on the definition.
I’d hazard the guess they don’t, and it’s easy to justify it - our current AIs don’t have the internal aparatus needed to develop counsciousness (yet). They’re way too simple and way too straightforward to be intelligent, whether intelligence is an emergent property or a fundamental structure.
Seems like a strong argument that consciousness cannot be determined by testing behaviors.
True, you can’t test a literal rock and expect the result to be telling of counsciousness. Good thing the researchers aren’t solely determining it by testing behaviour, and instead selected a group in which emergent intelligence is one of the probable phenomena.
Is emergent intelligence the scientific definition of consciousness? The article seems to be describing something else.
Is emergent intelligence the scientific definition of consciousness?
There exists no practical or effective difference.
Ofc they are sentient.
I fail to understand why do we will push the ‘no expression of the face means no intelligence or emotions bcs most of us communicate that way’.
It always turns out that whatever brain mechanics we think of as our own we later & with minimal research find in other animals as well.
Evolutionary speaking too, same brain centres (with various density and relative size - of which we dont have all that dense brains & and most parts are underdeveloped), it’s absolutely unlikely we would have developed something new in a few millions of years (especially given smol & fragmented populations facing extinctions and smol gene pools - tho that could be interpreted the other way too). It’s just specialisation, some (advantageous) functions grew, other were optimised to the point of non-existence.
Then again, given how intolerant are we to our own species in terms of our emotional response to slight visual differences (I mean vcompletely evolutionary, uncanny valley thing, the next village of humanoids might have been competing for the same resources, which makes different culture/colours/face shapes = danger, etc), how we choose to ignore compassion (like ‘look at that idiot, ofc they have no feelings, not unlike me, the superior being’) … ofc we can’t immediately recognise and understand what and how animals are feeling. It takes a lot of time, effort, & empathy (mechanical empathy, like to fully underhand their environment from their pov, and emotional empathy, how they are processing that environment).
And the bigger the difference and habitats, the harder it is (like any sea animal really). Anything non-mammal seems alien to us, no matter the smarts (eg cuttlefish, that can clearly experience psychological trauma on individual and population/cultural level).
And then there are fungi. After that plants. And whatever we choose bacteria to be (like beings, or just a literal matter of environment we live within). Etc :).
Insects don’t really have brains. The complexity of their ganglia is not really comparable to what we consider a brain and seems rather unlikely that they have anything like our consciousness, just due to the difference in complexity. Does not mean we should treat them like shit, they are living creatures - but also not sure why we need to pretend they are something they are clearly not.
Jumping spiders show some level of consciousness. They’re intelligent predators that heavily use their sight to identify prey. They can recognise different prey types, learn their behaviours and adjust hunting strategies accordingly. A good example is how they are able to recognise when certain prey is acting odd, deduce it’s injured and drop their stealthy approach for a more direct one. They’re also capable of remembering their environment and using indirect and often complex paths to sneak up on prey.
Scientists have even observed them “dreaming”, which is likely when they do the information processing required for such comparatively complex behaviours https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/jumping-spiders-dream-rem-sleep-study-suggests
Bold claim to go from REM in sleep-like state to dreams and consciousness, and the original paper is not making that claim.
A good example is how they are able to recognise when certain prey is acting odd, deduce it’s injured and drop their stealthy approach for a more direct one. They’re also capable of remembering their environment and using indirect and often complex paths to sneak up on prey.
All of this seems rather possible even with basic learning mechanisms on molecular level. Not sure why you would claim that this need consciousness. But if you have a paper on this topic I would be more than interested to read them.
No papers that are actually concrete. Most of it is just speculation.
I’m not a scientist, and for me personally it’s enough to make me spend a bit longer thinking before immediately dismissing all insects as mindless automatons. Most probably are simple biological machines. Jumping spiders are however massive outliers in terms of insect intelligence, and a cursory Google search will provide a wealth of evidence for it.
I personally would also go as far as believing that they dream. I just don’t believe there’s a reasonable explanation for the REM like state other than some form of dreaming, even if rudimentary.
I’m not going to state that jumping spiders are fully conscious as 100% fact, there’s not enough proof for that. But they do have a proven ability to learn, and an ability to make somewhat complex plans. And all I’m trying to say is that we need more research before dismissing them so certainly.
Not a scientist my self, but I studies biology and neuroscience more specifically - just left the field. I will look more into jumping spiders, since it’s sounds interesting and I was not really aware that they are that different from other spiders. Now I’m more curious and I definitely agree that we need more research in general.
Yes, I agree, in just pointing out how difficult is to understand that. Theoretically, it’s not like a human-level intelligent insect couldn’t exist.
My thinking to challenge myself/ourselves: Then how do whole colonies decide and plan resources? When to gave truce or war with the neighbouring colonies (of same or completely different species?). Their war strategies resemble human wars without technology/weapons. They also cultivate insects, plants, and fungi. Some within colonies plan, deceive, and try to develop a new queen (instead of the queen doing it in purpose/strategy).
Having brains as such imho is part of the problem as it adds a lot of complexity for humans to relate to.
But even our brains don’t work and govern alone, major organs have a complex nervous systems of their own (complex in the sense of not having a centre).
Not as a direct comparison to insect, but eg cephalopod brains are also vastly different, yet clearly highly intelligent.
My thinking to challenge myself/ourselves: Then how do whole colonies decide and plan resources? When to gave truce or war with the neighbouring colonies (of same or completely different species?). Their war strategies resemble human wars without technology/weapons. They also cultivate insects, plants, and fungi. Some within colonies plan, deceive, and try to develop a new queen (instead of the queen doing it in purpose/strategy).
We understand most of your questions quiet well. It’s been a long time since I studied biology and I’m not working in that field anymore so I won’t be able to give you most answers from memory, but if you are interested you will find a lot of research on those topics. It’s mostly really rather automatic responses through pheromone systems with involuntary responses. Especially the wars of ants are quite well understood in that regard.
Cephalopod have different but also rather complex brain structures. Again - insects just completely lack higher brain anatomy. If you into those question I would highly recommend you to take an introductory lecture into neuroscience online. We don’t understand everything but we understand some things quiet well.
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Not sure how your answer is related to my.
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Thanks for explaining, I somehow didn’t get your point.
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Just give a small summary at the end maybe, like you did after I asked you? Might help yourself to stay on point.
I thought this should be obvious to anyone who’s interacted with an animal, ever. But sadly there are a great many people who don’t agree there is a ‘soul behind the tv screen’ as it were with animals more primitive than things like cats and dogs. It can be easy to use to justify human cruelty.
And it’s easy for you to say it’s obvious and you’ve thought that all along. You’re not the demographic they’re trying to inform.
I found that too many people who call themselves a dog person because they are terrible with animals. Dogs have been bred to put up with us. But give them a dog that’s either bred for a specific task, or one that is a bit feral and they’ll say the dog is difficult. It isn’t, the owner is just incompetent.
I’m no dog or cat person. It’s easier for me to name the animals I hate (damn mosquito’s). I get along with most animals, even instant-swatting cats labelled as difficult. Only because I respect their boundaries. And I’ve stuck my hand behind a fence to pet a pitbull more often than a sane person would consider healthy.
I think that pet breeding should be banned and only allowed by veterinairy instances, universities and animal shelters. Imagine if people couldn’t buy a pet on a whim? Imagine if they had to order in advance and get certified they know how to take care of one? We’d have less animal cruelty, and less strays.
Also, sheep are underrated pets. Holy damn they are social. They are basically a walking pillow and love scratches behind the horns. And wag their tail when happy. Same for rats. I say rats are more suitable as pets than dogs. Social, fun, trainable (be warned of the lazy males), don’t bite, love cuddles, and you don’t need to castrate them to “keep their fun behaviour.” You do have to remove the ovaria as it makes female rats prone to cancer otherwise.
I’m gonna have to pass on the sheep, well at least the males. We had one, as a companion to a horse, and the damn thing would head butt us half the time and try to hump us the other. We had to carry a stick in just to feed it, or risk ending up with a line of spooge down our backs. It wasn’t right.
Rats, on the other hand, are great pets. More people should give rats a chance.
Shoutout to rats, really amazing creatures. Apparently they have metacognition!
Oh damn. The sheep I pet was a male. I’m not surprised about the assholery though.
I’m a dog person because between cats and dogs, I lack respect for cats. Yes they are cute and soft and sometimes cuddly. It’s not worth the ammonia smell everywhere and the scratching me when they come to me for pets, or the biting, clawing furniture, etc. Mostly the pee in the house.
I’ve done the things like changing the litter box and using new litter frequently. I’ve given them off limits spaces so they aren’t bothered. I’ve done the things and more. My daughter still has a cat downstairs. I’m not a jerk to the cat, but I just don’t like cats. I’ll pet, hold, play, etc. Cats are simply not a favorite for me.
Dogs… Ok the other hand… Obnoxious playful dopey friends that can learn cool things. Big cuddle bugs is what they are.
You share the same problem with the “too many people calling themselves dog people.” You state you lack respect to an animal, and then complain about said animal who is known to fight when threatened. That cat can tell you don’t like him, and so he doesn’t like you. Similar with horses. Just like many other animals, they sense your emotions. Except horses are very very good at it, and cats much less so.
I mean… The cat in the house is still our cat. We love him and have had him for 10+ years. He’s chill and tromps around the house. Sometimes plays and sometimes cuddles with everyone. I love the cat but I generally don’t like cats.
I’m not sure I follow what you’re putting down. I don’t feel like it applies to me.
I’ve always thought this, and thought it strange we assumed other creatures experienced lesser levels of sentience.
Vegans are well aware of this phenomenon.
People will tend to wave away atrocities by saying the victims “can’t feel it” or “don’t know what’s going on.”
We see it all the time in things like the treatment of indigenous people and the mutilation of baby’s genitals.
I think it’s fair to assume they experience a “lesser” level of sentience. People just assume it’s a lot more lesser than it is
I don’t even think this to be honest, seems like an absurd humanist position
IS veganism the real solution here, or is the real solution the all-artificial, all-synthetic diet? Me personally, I’m going to down this jug of red 40, and then I think I’ll get back to you
Veganism is the solution, yes.
Future generations will look back on us like we were crazy and barbaric for eating meat.
I agree that veganism is/could be a good solution moving forward. I strongly disagree that eating meat can be considered barbaric, as it is completely natural and present in every corner of the animal kingdom. Now, how we treat the animals we get that meat from is absolutely barbaric and should be considered so, but I don’t think meat eating itself should be villainized, at least in a retrospective sense.
Just because something is natural doesn’t mean it isn’t barbaric. Male lions will regularly kill cubs to make the mother ready for sex - that’s natural but we’d never accept (correctly) a human doing that.
Using the word barbaric is barbaric. It just basically means non-Greek/Roman. 😜
I understand your point but I dont think that the male lion’s proclivity for infanticide is equivalent to human life simply because that is not a typical (i.e. natural) aspect of human society
Rape then? Lots of animals rape and humans do so too. It’s ‘natural’ but barbaric.
Nah, synthetic food (and eventually discarding our gross meat shells for silicon and metal bodies) is the rightful path. On the way there, veganism is a nice stop-gap for most people.
Be that as it may, wasps can still fuck right off.
so it’s time to stop masturbating with my dog in the room
They’re conscious, not a prude.
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I could make a very crude joke, but I refuse. You win this time.
not surprising, I remember watching spider move when I was a kid and thinking they were obviously intelligent. sure they creep me out but I hate killing them for no reason, same with literally any other living thing
That’s true, spider man was pretty sentient in his movie
Yeah, well I’m still not sorry I put out ant traps.
Edit: The downvoters have clearly never had an ant infestation in their kitchen. It’s not a ‘live and let live’ situation.
Ants are also fairly well documented to be on the level of sophisticated biological robots. Death spirals/ant mills are a common occurrence because of this. There are arguments for some insects but ants are not one of them
