• Doomsider@lemmy.world
    14·
    11 hours ago

    They are both wrong.

    The correct way is to argue passionately that your country has committed the MOST war crimes/genocides/human rights violations. Ya know, bragging rights.

    • nomy@lemmy.zipEnglish
      1·
      37 minutes ago

      Ultimately we have more in common with a normal Chinese person just trying to live their lives than any of us do with our ruling classes. I’m sure those same ruling classes would rather us be less aware of that fact.

    • ChillPenguin@lemmy.world
      102·
      14 hours ago

      Idk why there’s such a pissing match in this post. Like honestly. Both our governments are shit. Why is this even a debate as to whose government is committing war crimes more? Your comment is the best comment here by far.

      • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
        81·
        9 hours ago

        If a serial murderer told you that their victims were actually much worse than they are, would you believe them?

        Yet the source of pretty much all anti-china atrocity propaganda is the US and its orgs like the victims of communism foundation. They want you to believe every single country they hate, China, Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, etc… are guilty of the same crimes they are. Why do you believe them?

  • Deestan@lemmy.world
    5917·
    2 days ago

    Which country allows their citizens to openly speak about and protest said war crimes?

    • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
      839·
      2 days ago

      Americans have jesters privilege. We can say anything we want as long as it doesn’t matter. As soon as the government thinks it might matter, they have a million tools to silence you.

      • Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works
        6·
        10 hours ago

        This is horse shit. There are examples of protests being countered (e.g. When Trump gassed protesters and clergy members to hold a Bible up upside down at their church), but these examples are rare and those people weren’t actually “silenced”. They told everyone about what happened.

        Americans have freedom of speech protected by our constitution. China, on the other hand, has actual laws dictating against many forms of speech.

        For example… “The PRC bans certain content regarding independence movements in Tibet and Taiwan, the religious movement Falun Gong, democracy, the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre, Maoism, corruption, police brutality, anarchism, gossip, disparity of wealth, and food safety scandals.”

        Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_China#:~:text=The PRC bans certain content,wealth%2C and food safety scandals

        • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
          41·
          8 hours ago

          How well did the protests about gaza go over then? You are hand waving away something we all lived through and saw. From unions to college campuses, protesting has never been a protected right. You can only protest as much as those in power allow you to in your area.

          Even those not in power shit on protestors when it affects their lives. People start saying things like “thats not the way to protest” or “this isn’t the time or place, have some respect”.

          Its bullshit, and we do not have the freedom to speak our minds, unless we already agree with what we are expected to.

        • Saleh@feddit.org
          31·
          8 hours ago

          The US cracked down on Gaza protests quite harshly. Many states enact book bans these days and some ban topics like slavery from schools. Also historically protests against Vietnam were partly gunned down. The black panthers were often murdered and in fighting them the US even bombed one of its own towns. Red Scare was huge and Ernest Hemmingway was probably driven to his suicide by FBI surveillance, for which he was called paranoid but later proofed real by declassified files.

          Censorship in China goes farther, but the US is far from being a free speech haven or ever having been that.

      • rational_lib@lemmy.world
        2·
        11 hours ago

        As soon as the government oligarchs who own the media thinks it might matter, they have a million tools to silence you.

        But it’s also worth noting that the Chinese don’t even have that. At least in America, you can get your message out by getting a billionaire to agree with you.

      • explodicle@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        1·
        14 hours ago

        I thought the Jester’s job was to say stuff that DID matter, but he presented it in a way where the king could save face.

        • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
          21·
          6 hours ago

          Looking it up, it’s unclear how much jesters were respected for having political competency that kings and court would listen to vs how much they were were entertainers who were permitted much greater liberty with content because he was non-threatening and affected nothing.

      • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
        118·
        2 days ago

        Facts right…

        I would posit you can say anything but the truth that hurts profits or US interests otherwise…

        Like calling out Israel 🤡

      • HandBash@lemmy.world
        53·
        1 day ago

        Did they bring in some tanks as well? Or if they did are we allowed to talk about it?

        • SmilingSolaris@lemmy.world
          3·
          10 hours ago

          Outside of “Chinese man gets removed from his league of legends match cause a player talked about tiananmen square” memes, what do you know about Chinese censorship?

          Talking out your ass

          • HandBash@lemmy.world
            12·
            6 hours ago

            I know that they don’t like people asking for a free Tibet and independence for Hong Kong. Are there any good mainstream Chinese media articles that talk about these subjects?

          • HandBash@lemmy.world
            22·
            6 hours ago

            When was the last demonstration made against central leadership? Or everyone just loves it there? Why do they have a firewall that blocks youtube?

            • SmilingSolaris@lemmy.world
              2·
              5 hours ago

              I’m gonna answer that last one cause it’s the only one I know lol.

              So you know how we are banning tiktok because we are afraid of China influencing America? So fun fact, America does that. We are like, cultural colonists. We have created a sort of global super culture that has gotten into every countries lives.

              And we have 100% used that as a sort of “in” with locals in countries we were not friends and then we would use that influence to radicalize the right wing ideologies in the country and cause destabilization and, all things going well, revolutions. See: all of south America and the Middle East (hi Afghanistan).

              So with all that in mind. With the world’s greatest super power systematically using its cultural influence as a soft power start with encouraging revolutions in your country for its own geo political gain. All that in mind. It’s kinda the most obvious move in the world. The US is doing it right now because they “perceived” it happening to us. If China became a big cultural export to the world you’d bet your ass that we would great firewall ourselves off. We just don’t have to. Because we are big dog. Woof woof. And China don’t have a large amount of cultural export.

              Sidenote. A Chinese company, tencent was making investments into videogames. They own riot who make league of legends and they have been getting their finger into a lot of studios for that sweet gamer money. The US gov said this game investment company is “apart of the Chinese military” lol.

      • dreadbeef@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        22·
        18 hours ago

        Can you post pictures of a tank event in the 80s in China without censoring? Can you talk about these protests ?

        • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
          2·
          8 hours ago

          Well considering a majority of americans think the tank guy got ran over and murdered on camera for everyone to see, maybe not so crazy they quash that one.

          Edit: I encourage those who aren’t aware to go watch the full footage, its not shocking in the least, many will find it anticlimactic even.

          Edit 2: took forever to find the full video, its not in full on youtube or anything like that I could find: https://odysee.com/@swprs:3/tiananmen-tank-man-1989-hd-full:b

    • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
      179·
      2 days ago

      China, but also the PRC hasn’t been in a war in like 50+ years. Meanwhile the US killed a million innocent people in Iraq, and goes after whistleblowers like Assange, Snowden, and Manning for speaking out about its war crimes. And the Obama administration prosecuted a record number of whistleblowers, and had a zero tolerance policy towards them.

    • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
      167·
      2 days ago

      Well the US doesn’t. China is hard to say because it’s not constantly at war

    • Malek061@lemmy.world
      2612·
      15 hours ago
      1. Dragging anchor in the baltic and cutting cables.
      2. Ramming Philippine ships and assaulting sailors.
      3. Genocide of the Uyghers.
      4. Tibet genocide.
      5. The rampant illegal fishing in every other countries coastline.
      • Dessalines@lemmy.ml
        52·
        9 hours ago

        Please list sources for any of these. Preferably not from US or british state media.

          • Red Army Dog Cooper@lemmy.ml
            2·
            4 hours ago

            I mean how about this, you CAN use those sources, however I will not treat them as a sacred cow and given there track record when dealing with places the US does not like it will take me almost no time to debunk the claim, or point out how the source is not credible on this topic, then you will wace your hands and scream about some liberal media reliability rateing that cannot even get left right and center correct, even in the US overton window, an then I will have to debunk the new media reliability AND remind you of the previous debunk.

            OR we can skip some of the easier ones to debunk and try to have an easier time in trying to understand reality, rather than just screaming and letting rich ghools make it up for us. The choice is yours

      • Shezzagrad@lemmy.mlEnglish
        106·
        14 hours ago

        Here’s 5 actual war crimes

        1. My Lai massacre Vietnam - America
        2. Iraq invasion (there’s thousands within this one including Abu ghraib) -america/nato 3- dressing up as medical personnel and massacring a refugee camp to save 1 person in gaza- Israel and America 4- a host of lesser known but many technical war crimes in Afghanistan like bombing undefended villages and towns https://www.culawreview.org/journal/double-standards-in-international-law-did-the-us-get-away-with-war-crimes-in-afghanistan 5- raping children and murdering their family. This is American tactic in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria with many documented cases
        • TheReturnOfPEB@reddthat.comEnglish
          43·
          9 hours ago

          yes we are now doing exactly what the meme at the top of the page is doing.

          fyi: two spaces at the end of a line will format that correctly as a newline

           

        • explodicle@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          57·
          14 hours ago

          What do you chuds not understand about “two countries are committing war crimes”? You asked about China and got an answer about China. You’re trying to convince us who’s the second worst empire.

          • Shezzagrad@lemmy.mlEnglish
            74·
            14 hours ago

            I think you’re missing the WAR part of the WAR CRIME. I thought you’d realise by now, but you’re really digging yourself a hole. Funny thing is there are wars you could have mentioned and war crimes. The point of original comment was to draw our those without any knowledge like you 😜

            • explodicle@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
              33·
              14 hours ago

              I’m explaining to you why this comparison is a poor argument, not volunteering to dance around various different arguments all day.

      • Shezzagrad@lemmy.mlEnglish
        108·
        8 hours ago

        1 isn’t a war crimes lmao 2 isn’t a war crime 3. Isn’t a war crime nor is there proof. Literal unbacked western propaganda, wanna know what is backed? Gaza, By the west and Sudan genocide by America via UAE RIGHT NOW, you can literally watch it unfold on all social media 4. Perhaps, I would need to do more research on this one, but didn’t you got 3 wrong, I wouldn’t be surprised if your wrong again. 5. Not a war crime

        Edit: no idea how to do formatting on the phone, I apologise

        • Malek061@lemmy.world
          129·
          14 hours ago

          Crimes against humanity are war crimes. Looting is a war crime. Invasion of a sovereign nation is an act of war. Stealing their resources is looting. Genocide is a crime against humanity and Tibet and the Uyghers are in one.

          Wolf warriors that bury their head in the sand will suffocate under the lies.

          China has been real bad.

          • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
            72·
            13 hours ago

            Uyghers are in one

            There is no post-2021 evidence whatsoever of human right abuses of any sort in the Xinjiang province against Uyghur people. You can try to find stuff but you won’t find anything, I dare you to send me a single article that has an actual reference to actual evidence of post-2021 human right abuses. Send me an article and point to the actual reference within the article. I dare you.

            • Malek061@lemmy.world
              14·
              11 hours ago

              Uyghur Genocide and Concentrated Reeducation Camps in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of the People’s Republic of China https://search.app/fyMhR137LTgqVkEJ8

              Here is a report from the office of national intelligence last November listing all the data for the genocide.

              • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
                6·
                8 hours ago

                The document is from a US intelligence agency from what it seems, it’s poorly referenced, and even then there’s nothing post-2021, is there?

                I explicitly asked to please point at the reference within the article, because I’m exhausted of people just finding articles on google on this topic on western media and sending them to me without reading them. Please tell me what post-2021 huma right abuses are referenced and well-sourced in the report

                • Malek061@lemmy.world
                  12·
                  7 hours ago

                  You didn’t download it did you? There is recent and relevant information about Uygher displacement and ethic cleansing. Why do you support ethnic cleansing?

              • ∞🏳️‍⚧️Edie [it/its, she/her, fae/faer, love/loves, null/void, des/pair, none/use name, kitty]@lemmy.ml
                5·
                9 hours ago

                So I checked it out… never directly states where the data is from (“PRC state media and data”, “party documents and data reportedly obtained from local public security bureaus in Xinjiang”, it continues to be this vague never specific throughout), most of the dates end in 2021/2022 (for the latter e.g. “the last date for which authorities have issued such reports”, so that doesn’t show it hasn’t ended in 2021)

                The closest thing you have in there is

                the continued elevated number of indictments in 2022 suggests that the campaign continues

                Are there other, better, sources?

              • Shezzagrad@lemmy.mlEnglish
                41·
                12 hours ago

                you and this other guy are tankie trash, full stop. So does then make you fascist trash? This isn’t the cold war and I was born in Scotland not Yugoslavia No buddy were just a bit brighter then you. There’s 3 tiers of thinking. 'one side is wholly bad" Tier 2 “both sides are bad” Tier 3" both sides are bad but I want to look deeper into the complexites and nuances which made me realise, one side is infinitely worse" You’re stuck on tier 2. i’m an american, i’m a little dull to the ol “it isn’t technically a war bc we didn’t declare war >:2” shit

                You said it yourself you are pretty dull as you don’t know what a freaking war crime Vs a crime against humanity is. A crime against humanity would be like slaving your citizens… Like how it’s codified in American prison laws

          • Shezzagrad@lemmy.mlEnglish
            44·
            14 hours ago

            Crimes against humanity aren’t war crimes. You’re reading comprehension is lacking my friend. The war in war crimes means warfare.

            Speaking of genocides. You have mentioned two. Most genocides on the planet are actively done by America and it’s allies or it supplies the weapons and silences the media.

            Considering China having 5 times the population of america. Id say china has been very good comparatively on the world. Also nothing to say how 4 of 5 of your war crimes weren’t at all war crimes??