This person very clearly understands what is happening, hence the second sentence. It’s just phrased in a way to not immediately cause magas to engage in their rejecting of reality at the site of criticism.
I think more people need to approach it like this. Human’s minds are designed to think with their group and resistant to change. If you actually want to change minds, insults and accusations will immediately put them into fight mode and they will defend their ideology. But if you don’t attack their ideals and approach in a friendly kind of way, it will lead them to questioning their leader’s choices. It’s hard, I know. Their leader has made some shoot-themselves-in-the-foot choices and makes their conviction an easy target to attack. Insults and attacks may even be a way of letting off steam, but if you actually want change, it has to be a smart and kinder approach. It won’t be an immediate change, but it will be gradual and large over time.
We tried being reasonable for decades and that didn’t work becsuse they want to believe the propaganda they comsume. We won’t win them over by being kinder. That only works on reasonable people who care about facts.
You’re not wrong, “Being reasonable” can be saying “you are wrong! And here’s why…” and as you said, that doesn’t work. And kindness doesn’t work either. I suggest we be less confrontational when trying to help them understand other views. It’s hard and nuisanced. It’s like saying “I’m not against you, but you’re choices and support are not working the way you think they are”, but in a clever way that isn’t so obvious.
Yeah, fuck these guys that are trampling over human right… but like, I also would like change to happen. Being reasonable and kind isn’t working. Neither is aggression.
The cognitive dissonance underlying their worldview is being exposed and demonstrated, and they are very obviously unable to fully reconcile basic logic and empirical reality with the idea that dear leader is a madman, and that they are cult thralls of a madman, and that he is doing exactly what he said he would do, and that they are fools for trusting in him.
Delusional cult members do not have coherent, consistent worldviews, they are full of contradictions, which are usually squelched by thought terminating cliches, highly emotional motivated reasoning (ie, ‘faith’), having your own identity and personality be heavily intertwined with and dependant on the cult.
They would have to be deprogrammed like former Heavens Gate cult members or something similar.
Their minds will likely never function reasonably again. While some may be able to pull themselves out of it, similar to someone raised in a fundamentalist setting who deconverts via thorough critical skepticism… most of them are not capable of that, and will instead seek to blame shift to protect their own egos.
… Thats all to say, this person seemingly logically putting it together… but also not accepting their own logic?
This is quite normal for a cult member.
Lots and lots of cults do lots and lots of social conditioning to make the cult member accept or ignore or deflect from any objective criticisms.
That is basically what all religious apologetics is, after all.
There’s been studies that far right fascist supports have a smaller “empathy” section to their brain. You have to know how to approach soaking to someone like that. They only care about stuff when it affects them. In order to reach these people, you need to highlight that these things ARE hurting them, and it will continue to get worse.
I explained everything to them, how it would hurt them, in detail, for years.
Didn’t work.
I now live many states away from them, seeing as the last time I talked to my dad he was full QAnon bonkers, and also building ghost guns (untraceable AR 15s and AR 18s) in his garage.
Logic doesn’t work when too much of their personal identity is wrapped into the cult identity.
This person very clearly understands what is happening, hence the second sentence. It’s just phrased in a way to not immediately cause magas to engage in their rejecting of reality at the site of criticism.
I think more people need to approach it like this. Human’s minds are designed to think with their group and resistant to change. If you actually want to change minds, insults and accusations will immediately put them into fight mode and they will defend their ideology. But if you don’t attack their ideals and approach in a friendly kind of way, it will lead them to questioning their leader’s choices. It’s hard, I know. Their leader has made some shoot-themselves-in-the-foot choices and makes their conviction an easy target to attack. Insults and attacks may even be a way of letting off steam, but if you actually want change, it has to be a smart and kinder approach. It won’t be an immediate change, but it will be gradual and large over time.
We tried being reasonable for decades and that didn’t work becsuse they want to believe the propaganda they comsume. We won’t win them over by being kinder. That only works on reasonable people who care about facts.
They can go fuck themselves.
You’re not wrong, “Being reasonable” can be saying “you are wrong! And here’s why…” and as you said, that doesn’t work. And kindness doesn’t work either. I suggest we be less confrontational when trying to help them understand other views. It’s hard and nuisanced. It’s like saying “I’m not against you, but you’re choices and support are not working the way you think they are”, but in a clever way that isn’t so obvious.
Yeah, fuck these guys that are trampling over human right… but like, I also would like change to happen. Being reasonable and kind isn’t working. Neither is aggression.
And this attitude will only continue to cement their position against reason…congrats, you have fucked yourself
Inviting the individual while painting them all with a broad brush is not helpful. Individuals can be reached.
You’re right. Addressing the group doesn’t work. So stop doing that.
Well, i mean, someone has to and i have no other applicants, at the moment.
They are quite literally in a cult.
The cognitive dissonance underlying their worldview is being exposed and demonstrated, and they are very obviously unable to fully reconcile basic logic and empirical reality with the idea that dear leader is a madman, and that they are cult thralls of a madman, and that he is doing exactly what he said he would do, and that they are fools for trusting in him.
Delusional cult members do not have coherent, consistent worldviews, they are full of contradictions, which are usually squelched by thought terminating cliches, highly emotional motivated reasoning (ie, ‘faith’), having your own identity and personality be heavily intertwined with and dependant on the cult.
They would have to be deprogrammed like former Heavens Gate cult members or something similar.
Their minds will likely never function reasonably again. While some may be able to pull themselves out of it, similar to someone raised in a fundamentalist setting who deconverts via thorough critical skepticism… most of them are not capable of that, and will instead seek to blame shift to protect their own egos.
… Thats all to say, this person seemingly logically putting it together… but also not accepting their own logic?
This is quite normal for a cult member.
Lots and lots of cults do lots and lots of social conditioning to make the cult member accept or ignore or deflect from any objective criticisms.
That is basically what all religious apologetics is, after all.
There’s been studies that far right fascist supports have a smaller “empathy” section to their brain. You have to know how to approach soaking to someone like that. They only care about stuff when it affects them. In order to reach these people, you need to highlight that these things ARE hurting them, and it will continue to get worse.
You are describing most of my family.
I have degrees in Econ and Poli Sci.
I explained everything to them, how it would hurt them, in detail, for years.
Didn’t work.
I now live many states away from them, seeing as the last time I talked to my dad he was full QAnon bonkers, and also building ghost guns (untraceable AR 15s and AR 18s) in his garage.
Logic doesn’t work when too much of their personal identity is wrapped into the cult identity.
Truly a sage.
It’s thyme.
Whereas the normal fox news viewers are a bunch of dill weeds.
Very thin ones though