EDIT: no, I don’t sympathize with nazis (neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they’re losing an argument ;)
Yes, let’s enter discussion with the literal Nazis so we can try to understand them. There might be nuance to their calls for mass genocide.
Fuck off OP.
It’s funny how people always use play it like “oh, it’s just differing opinions” when what they’re actually defending is indefensible malarkey like nazis and tankies. They know if they made a meme saying we should “try to understand” nazis and tankies, they’d be downvoted to oblivion. And so they hide behind a shield of “differing opinions”.
These cretins have a right to post nazi and tankie shit on their own instances – them’s the beauty of the fediverse. But I also have a right to not want hate speech, genocide denial, and Hitler/Stalin/Mao simps polluting my feed. It’s not mere “differing opinions” when one person’s opinion is “Holodomor didn’t happen, and if it did, the Ukrainians deserved it” or “Holocaust didn’t happen, and if it did, the Jews deserved it” or whatever apologia they wanna peddle.
It’s funny how people always use play it like “oh, it’s just differing opinions” when what they’re actually defending is indefensible malarkey like nazis and tankies. They know if they made a meme saying we should “try to understand” nazis and tankies, they’d be downvoted to oblivion. And so they hide behind a shield of “differing opinions”.
There’s an actual term for this: Motte and Bailey. One of many hallmarks of disingenuous shitbirds.
HiTlEr WaSn’T aLl BaD
Hitler wasn’t all bad. After all, he did kill Hitler.
Only a good Hitler with a gun can stop a bad Hitler doing genocide.
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He didn’t even want to kill all those people, he only wanted to exploit them and then deport everyone to Africa… but the Allies wouldn’t let him conquer enough Africa for all of them, so what was he to do? Killing then wasn’t even his idea, it was Reinhardt’s! He just signed it…
(do I put an /s? it’s historically correct…)
Right… So thinking that the Tzar’s invasion of Ukraine is unjustified is Nazi shit. Thinking that the Holodomor was a genocide is Nazi shit. Cuz that’s what ur tankie buddies called me. This is what OP was referencing to.
My dude, just today we had Neo-Nazis berating people outside Disney World about the supremacy of the white race and the need to eliminate all LGBTQ people. “Literal Nazi” isn’t some coded terminology that takes a PhD in Cryptography to decipher. There are no hidden meanings here.
There is a block button. You don’t have to scream for daddy Admin every time someone says something stupid. I, for one, want to call them out, not keep everyone from my instance from interacting with them.
every time someone says something stupid
Here’s a philosophical topic called emergence. Every “one” thing said by an idiot is one thing, but when pretty much every other comment becomes some asshole saying ignorant things it suddenly is something entirely different.
I saw the very early Internet (mid-80s) and what happened when you gave people benefit of the doubt. There’s been no demonstration that anyone has changed. So fuck those stupid assholes, the Internet is vast they can go carve out their own thing. That’s the nice thing, they have every tool to make their own LOLverse. But they don’t because they don’t want to suck each other’s dick, they want to be an ass to everyone else. Just as it was the case with
talk.*Same as it was, same as it ever will be. I for one am glad this time around people are being proactive. It shows that some have actually learned something.
Yes, let’s give the Nazis a platform to spew their bullshit. It’s entirely so we can laugh at them and completely could not possibly lead to them continuing to propagate their message of hate. /s
Fuck off. Fuck off as far as anyone has ever fucked off before, then dream the impossible dream and fuck off even further.
I don’t even trust you to properly define what a nazi is. People are calling Hexbar users Nazis, they are calling Lemmygrad users Nazis, and they call the lemmy.ml admins Nazis as well. Just because you say they are nazis doesn’t mean I agree with you.
What, is it only Nazism if it’s from the Reichstag region of WWII Germany, and otherwise it’s just Sparkling Fascism?
Maybe ask yourself why it is that when someone explicitly denounces Nazis you feel personally offended.
The Reichstag Region of WWII Germany, eh?
Like…from the Brandenburger Tor then?
I get what you are trying to say but to a German this is unnecessarily reductive gobbledygook.this is unnecessarily reductive gobbledygook
SelfAwareWolves material right here.
Wait… What? So I’m a Nazi or something who didn’t realize what they are because I told you that “the Reichstag region” is an ignorant thing to say when it comes to Nazis since the building itself is a sign of democracy and still seat of the German parliament? It burning was literally used by the Nazis to reduce democratic powers in Germany. You used the word because you happen to know it and it sounds all harsh and German to you.
Besides: De-Federating is a mistake. That’ll lead to them reinforcing their bullshit unchallenged inside of their echo chambers and draw in everyone who comes by and stays long enough. That’s exactly what strengthens the AFD in Germany or certain religious groups in the US. The only chance you have against them is engaging them and hack off little chips of their construct of lies and hatred until it hopefully collapses.
De-federating so you don’t see them and then pretending that solves anything is like throwing a blanket on a unexploded bomb that has slammed into your bedroom: You can pretend it’s not there all your want, until one day where the cover is being lifted rather radically.
On the contrary, deplatforming works very well. In the wake of Reddit banning FatPeopleHate and CoonTown the Georgia Institute of Technology did a study on walling off and removing “safe spaces” for bigots:
Working from over 100M Reddit posts and comments, we generate hate speech lexicons to examine variations in hate speech usage via causal inference methods. We find that the ban worked for Reddit.
More accounts than expected discontinued using the site; those that stayed drastically decreased their hate speech usage—by at least 80%. Though many subreddits saw an influx of r/fatpeoplehate and r/CoonTown “migrants,” those subreddits saw no significant changes in hate speech usage.
In other words, other subreddits did not inherit the problem.
Banning an entire bigoted instance from yours, i.e. defederating, will accomplish the goal of reducing and removing bigoted behavior from your instance.
Yes, it worked for the platform. It didn’t make the bigots go away. They just withdrew. No one actually changed their mind by being banned. They will just move to ever smaller platforms until they land on a platform where they are the only crowd and there they will keep reinforcing each other, leading to more radicalization.
That’s exactly what I said: defederating will make the problem invisible to you, but the hateful bigots will still exist.
I’m tired of people thinking that racists and bigots and morons deserve a warm shoulder to vent to. It isn’t anyone’s responsibility to make someone be something they aren’t, and it’s really suspicious anytime someone tells you that you should be nice, or hear out, or let join people that hold disgusting views.
They will become more radical, but they will be prevented from radicalizing others. When normal people encounter the now hyper-radicalized members of the deplatformed groups, they will tend to write them off as the crazed radicals that they are.
Convince those who you can. Exile those who are too far gone. Doing the opposite in either instance is harmful.
Why is it every instance admin’s responsibility to fix bigots? What is it about running a Lemmy instance that obligates people to actively work to find the one glimmer of redeeming quality in these human septic tanks? Why should the targets of their hatred have to do all the work to avoid being victimized?
Well it isn’t, nothing does, and they shouldn’t. Bigots are the ones in the wrong here, and kicking them out works plenty well. Bigots spread by being given platforms. Take away even one of those and it lessens the spread.
“We shouldn’t have echo chambers” is just propaganda from bigots who were upset that their soapboxes got taken away. Stop falling for it.
Grow the fuck up and accept the fact you’re not wanted. Instance admins are allowed to associate with who they want. You are not owed anyone else’s time and attention simply because you exist.
Also, has anybody reported this guy yet?
You forgot the “except for Nazis” part. No one wants more nazis except nazis and they can fuck off.
You are advocating for nazis. Fuck off.
Fuck that. Defederate all Nazis.
More like de-head-erate all nazis lmao
This post assumes that a meaningful amount of defed instances are caused by simple lack of agreement. Often, it’s an orthogonal matter - it boils down to instance A actually understanding something about the userbase of instance B and saying “I’m not dealing with this shit, it’ll make the instance worse for its own users”. For example: the typical user of B might be disingenuous, or preach immoral prescriptions, behave like a chimp, or be a bloody stupid piece of trash that should’ve stayed in Reddit to avoid smearing its stupidity everywhere here.
Are instance admins too eager to pull the trigger for defed? Perhaps, in some cases; specially because it handles groups of users instead of individuals. But those cases are better addressed through actual examples, not through a meme talking on generic grounds.
The cool part is, if your instance admin starts doing stuff you don’t like, you can super easily just go to a different one, or even go about hosting your own that you control and decide who to federate with
Well, once they fix the whole “each instance copies the media from other instances automatically” thing. I’d love to self-host a vanity instance if I didn’t have to either worry about CSAM or just nuke the entire pict-rs facility via script.
…actually I wonder if that’s an option on kbin. Even if the Mastodon interoperability is a bit wonky right now I like the platform working with both services on ActivityPub (thus why I’m here).
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Making it mandatory and something you can’t opt out of is not acceptable. “Work as a knockoff as a CDN” shouldn’t be a requirement of running a vanity instance. That’s a barrier to entry without much benefit.
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From what I understand, that’s difficult to do, and even if done it prevents the inline loading of images from those other instances at all.
Hopefully it’ll be academic before long anyway. The CSAM attack lit a fire under the devs and changing this is now one of their highest priorities.
Yup. As a side effect: admins that are too eager to pull the trigger might get their own users pissed, and they’ll eventually leave. So a successful admin needs to make sure that the defed is the best for his userbase.
Thanks for a cool-headed comment!
No offense but this is kind of what happens in real life too. Nazi shows up to local bar. Barman or owner doesn’t throw them out. Eventually they invite their friends. It winds up being known a Nazi bar. People who don’t want to associate with Nazis no longer visit the bar. This is why intolerance of the intolerant is a thing.
The paradox of tolerance.
Tolerance must tolerate all but intolerance of tolerance
Tolerance is a social contract.
If you refuse to be bound by it, then you are a direct threat to the contract, and those who follow it, and should be treated as such.
Funny thing is, the Nazis would use those same guilty by association tactics to silence and crush dissent.
Yeah, but the difference is that the nazis wouldn’t be right or even honest, unlike the ones who oppose bigotry and genocide. You can’t tolerate intolerance to death.
Defederating brigaders and trolls is necessary to maintain a healthy community. If your instance is defederated from all major instances, perhaps you should look examine what sort of company you keep.
With that mentality we’ll all become beehaw. The cesspool of don’t look at me funny.
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Lmao “try and understand them” fuck off, OP. You’re not fooling anyone. There’s no point trying to understand assholes.
Assholes maybe. Nazis no. There is definitely a point where someone is beyond saving and you need to simply cut them off, and Nazis are far, far beyond that line.
What a simple, stupid argument.
You can’t enter a discussion with somebody who’s just trying to bombard you into submission. OP is wildly ignorant or just somebody sad they’re being defederated on a different account.
Welcome to memes@Lemmy.ml
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I want my experience to be free of that shit, as well as “look at this cute picture of Stalin being a silly boy, hehe”
I think we understand the other side just fine. They’re a combination of malignant narcissists and complete idiots.
laptop?
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Far left and far right on a venn diagram is a circle.
You mean Auth left and Auth right. Far left and far right have nothing in common.
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You couldn’t be more wrong.
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This is what the nazis want you to believe lmao
‘people posting stuff you consider harmful’ is not a simple, black and white issue. Anyone who pretends that allowing all opinions has no consequences is full of shit, anyone who claims that tightly policing opinions has no consequences is full of shit.
Like almost everything in life, you will have to navigate a tenuous balance between these two things and you will never know if you got the balance right. You are just a sack of meat doomed to die.
We are getting close to massive life extension/ clinical immortality.
People were saying that about cryogenics.
Humans have a vast body of knowledge about how things work. It’s a shame its dwarfed by the vast body of knowledge we are completely ignorant of.
Much as scientists managed to be surprised that life had evolved to eat garbage in the pacific garbage patch, it seems some will manage to be surprised that when humans eliminate one source of mortality, another inevitably evolves to take advantage of the ever-growing supply of humans.
Fuck off nazis.
Follow your leader and kill yourselves.
Well said. There is a lively song by the Dead Kennedys that explains with nuance and understanding this same sentiment.
I’m so glad that the comments have (mostly) finally unified in agreement that defederating Nazis and other hideous people is the right move.
We tried every other form of debate on the topic. If people are engaging in a discourse in bad faith in hopes that they will benefit from the publicity, your best option is to ignore them.
Yup, exactly
We need a list of all instances that defederate with such trash and only use them, not the others.
I’m not up to date on the drama. Who got defeded?
I think it’s mostly about Hexbear, Exploding heads and lemmygrad.
Exploding-heads.com went down. They moved to nostr afaik.
Good riddance.
Unless the nazi wears red, then let him spew his holocaust denial because “western propaganda imperialism butwhatabout they deserved it it never happened.”
Imagine thinking racism and child porn have arguments worth listening to. Just defed and forget they exist.
Yeah, let’s try to understand child abuse images /s
Let’s find the middle ground with Nazi’s too!
I want to stab you in the back 8 times, you don’t want to be stabbed at all.
Let’s compromise and I stab you 4 times.
We can surely work a way to achieve peace for our time!
Yeah! They put on a red shirt, that means they’re cool!
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So you’re just not aware that that’s been a real problem? I mean, ok you didn’t know, but your uninformed opinion is worthless.
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But seriously, fuck them tankies.
Funny how one instance is the one everyone wants to defederate from.
When everyone you meet is an asshole, you are probably the real asshole.
Funny how this works with social media as well.
Currently. Of course in the past it was exploding heads for being Nazis, Lemmygrad for being insufferable tankies, then Burggit for lolicon, now hexbear for being insufferable tankies.
Heck I think Lemmygrad is more tolerable than Hexbear, by a lot.
Do they allow downvotes? Hexbear doesn’t which means everything they disagree with gets a reply with a handful of large emoji.
They do. See https://lemmygrad.ml and see how almost every post has some downvotes. IMO this does make the posting culture there better.
