I experience Lemmy as a reflection of many of the problems in the world; there seems to be little effort to understand and respect different viewpoints. Instead of being curious about opinions one disagrees with, the community often feels almost aggressive. People end up in their own trenches. What about trying to be more open and curious about our differences instead?
Apparently we believe in freedom of speech—so long as the speech is something we agree with…
More of a rant than a genuine question. Locking.
This is the thing I like least about Lemmy. So many people have no friends or life experience, hate everyone, and want to constantly argue or insult others that it’s difficult to avoid them. I block as many as I can, but it takes a lot of the fun out of meeting people and having discussions.
I’m all for letting people say what they want, but that goes both ways in letting them criticize what you say.
If you don’t like them, you can just ignore them. Nobody is saying you have to take the opinions of people on the internet seriously.
I don’t come here for friendly debate or to enrich my worldview. It happens from time to time but there are two many bad faith actors to waste time debating with people that don’t already largely align with my priorities and morality.
Within those boundaries I’m happy to rethink things and have nuanced conversations and debate with people I already can largely agree on foundational thinking. But frankly at this point in my life if someone comes on here with “but what if Trump is good,” I block. Like in order to get to that point, there has to be extremely little common ground to agree on. There is no hope of reasonable conversation.
Likely some people feel the same about me.
People seem to be much more passionate about their stances here. Even when their stance is completely ridiculous and not rooted in reality. I’ve only blocked one person so far though (something I’ve REALLY tried not to do) and I’ve had a ton of good dialoge. You also can’t really express any view that isn’t far left.
passionate is a polite way to acknowledge that they have delusional beliefs and inability to knowledge reality outside of their own head where anything they claim or think is perfect and good.
I try to be polite where possible
its there. I have seen it. its also not there. use the block. make the experience you want.
This. It got notably worse recently, so don’t be too picky with that block button.
yeah I mean that being said don’t block somone just for disagreeing and check thier profile and post and comment history to verify. There are some who were being rather dickish at times but I looked over and you know maybe they were having a bad day as their history was not like that all the time.
I’ve seen the opposite. I’ve enjoyed conversation’s here and people generally have good facts to back up their point. There’s a few assholes but way less than reddit. I’m worried it will get worse though.
That’s interesting that experiences can vary so widely here. People are way more rude here, I’ve found. And way more sexist. Or at least more sexist on the surface. At least on Reddit you’d have to seek out incel communities to see the more depraved views about women.
Reddit has normies now and Lemmy is more basement nerds so that’s probably why.
Reddit has women now. Ftfy
Pretty Much ha
Hopefully more women will join lemmy. It’s quite the cesspool in here.
Freedom of speech doesn’t mean a guaranteed audience or platform.
You can write whatever you want. No one is required to read it. No one is required to host it. If they do read it, they can say whatever they want about it.
This is the fediverse. You can host your own instance and say whatever you want. No one else is required to federate with you.
If you post something and people say it’s garbage, that’s not your freedom of speech being quashed. You spoke. Now they are using their freedom of speech in response.
usually whenever someone complains about this sort of thing, it’s because they got told off for espousing fascist bullshit, so please, elaborate for us.
Discrediting what someone says by questioning their underlying motives instead of engaging with the actual content is called ad hominem. Along with strawmanning, it’s probably the number-one logical fallacy poisoning online discourse - and likely a major reason this whole discussion even started in the first place.
being the “errrrrrm, ackshually, you just committed a logical fallacy 🤓” dweeb in response to someone else being questioned whether they’re a fascist sympathizer, when that doesn’t actually invalidate what I said at all, when I wasn’t even talking to you – that’s an extraordinary kind of self-own, you do know that, right?
I’m gonna engage with fascists and fascist sympathizers on the same level that they engage in good-faith debate in – that is to say, on whatever level I want to at any given moment in time. If they aren’t one, let them explain what innocent ideas they’ve expressed that are so poorly received, that have lead them to believe Lemmy is “lacking tolerance and acceptance” – we’ve got entire instances dedicated to porn, anarchists, AI lovers, tankies, trans people, furries, the French – I’m very eager to hear what could possibly be Too Spicy For Lemmy that is not something along the lines of “I want to gas undesirables” or trending towards that direction.
It’s definitely intolerant of any OS that is non-linux
On the contrary, I believe everyone here holds a special place in their heart for TempleOS, even if it’s not a practical choice. Also most everyone here has mad respect for anyone rocking some other niche nerd shit like FreeBSD or ReactOS etc. (I do, anyways)
Mostly it’s just that Windows has sucked for at least a decade and macOS is just starting on its suck arc.
I agree Windows sucks, just pointing out an intolerance! I think no matter what social we go on it will eventually become an echo chamber and people will be intolerant as their hatred grows.
Another example is AI. Lemmy is intolerant of AI outside of AI specific communities, but go to LinkedIn and you have people circlejerking over how great their vibe coding is.
Back when Reddit made it’s API change and I moved to Lemmy, it felt like people were still getting a feeling of things, there would be more discussion on subjects. As time is going on I’m seeing discussion around subject diminish. I guess it could have been because there was less posts? Or could it be as time has gone on people have become less tolerant of things Lemmy generally doesn’t like?
Sure, but you said intolerance for any non-Linux OS, and that’s just simply not true as there are several non-Linux OS’s we love. If you were to say Lemmy is intolerant specifically of Windows, that would be more accurate, but I’m also aware of at least one subset of die-hard Windows aficionados on Lemmy who vehemently hate Linux. Definitely a minority, but they’re there.
Also, the db0 instance is pro-AI as I recall, so anyone who’s keen on that sort of thing is (to my knowledge) welcome there.
Yeah fair enough, you’re right, I should have been specific in saying Windows and MacOS.
I believe the point still remains that intolerances exist on Lemmy.
Apparently we believe in freedom of speech—so long as the speech is something we agree with…
Freedom of speech isn’t freedom from response. Some people have shitty opinions, and are too fragile to accept that people don’t like them or their opinions.
And some people get upset when other people don’t like AI and don’t want it to do everything for them.
What have you found is not being tolerated?
Discussion about anything spiritual. Mention the word and people automatically assume that you’re an extreme right-wing fundamentalist Christian ready to host a sermon about how much God hates homosexuals.
Discussion about anything spiritual.
As an atheist and a Bible-reading dude (as well as a few other ‘spirituality’ books, among many other types of books), the hate towards anything spirituality-related and religious around here was one of those things I almost immediately noticed after joining, it’s even worse regarding anything Christian. The worst for me was not that hate, it is the fact that almost all of it rely on nothing but a desire to do like the others. And very rarely on actual knowledge of what is being hated.
It is one of those things that made me question if I should stay, if the Fediverse was a place one could really expect to have enriching discussions, or merely the exact opposite of those corporate-owned social media platforms that are populated by right-winged haters: collectively-owned social media populated by left-winged haters. Hate is a poor choice. It doesn’t matter what one hates.
The one thing that made stay is that, thx to the tools available, it’s also very easy to filter out most of that hatred and to suddenly realize that, hidden under that now gone noise, there are indeed quite a few persons wanting to have civilized conversations and that are able to not hate on anyone they disagree with. Not a large crowd, but enough to make it worthwhile to stay and from time to time have an interesting discussion.
That option to filter out the hate, even if it’s not perfect, makes the Fediverse quite unique, imho.
Yeah. The anti-theism thing here is wild.
I usually just assume they are into healing crystals or yoga, but that’s my own bias.
People here love ot hate on bigotry, but are totally blind to their perpetuation of it themselves. Because when they massively overgeneralize anyone who is remotely religions or spiritual based on a tiny extremist minority… it’s good! It’s fighting injustice and bigotry! But if other people do it, it’s bad and evil, and wrong!
Hehe, the funny thing is that on me, your assumption would actually more correct than the fundie Christian assumption.
Very specific yoga philosophy, and “healing” crystals in the sense that I’m fine with people saying that looking at pretty rocks makes them feel better. Wouldn’t generalize that into a cancer cure though.
Oh no… People disagree with my opinion. I’m being oppressed.
Thanks for proving my point I guess.
Yes. If your point is that you want to have an opinion and not be teased or disagreed with, that is not a thing you can have. At least, I can’t imagine how that’d work.
There’s a world of difference between disagreeing with someone and mocking them. Especially if the mockery is based on a complete misrepresentation of what is being said.
Sure. And boy do I wish humans didn’t do that all the time. But they do. And so to expect otherwise seems silly to me.
Maybe I’m just more jaded than I should be.
Not saying if you should or should not be jaded but I would ask you: please, please don’t give into the jadedness.
I do understand the impulse and I used to be that way myself. But it’s something that eats at you more than it helps you. Online you can always step away from the strife and in the offline world you can find truly good and caring people who do listen to reason. I realize it might be easy for me to say but I really don’t want to see any more people turn to hopelessness and cynicism. It only helps people who would add more misery to the world.
I’m not the best person to say this and it’ll sound weird on this platform but I do mean it with all my heart. I hope you can find enough good in your life to protect it without despair.
Mention anything about veganism and watch the comments pile on. The Lemmy group mind is not a fan of anything that challenges their currently held viewpoints.
Veganism in particular is hard for some people, because it pokes holes in their current world view and it effectively says you could be doing more, for people who already view themselves as ethical and caring hearing some of those hard truths can feel like an attack.
And on Lemmy in particular people like to shut down dissenting viewpoints such as those.
And please don’t hit me with responses on why you think veganism is dumb, I’m merely making an observation as to what is not tolerated on this platform.
Vegans who treat it like a religion are difficult to be around. Vegans who treat it like a personal choice, are not.
That’s true of any life choice though. People get offended when other people don’t make the same choices or have the same beliefs, because they feel in attacks of invalidates them as a person.
I mean, I don’t cheat in relationships and I am monogamous. But for many people that’s a controversial statement that I have had a ton of pushback on because it makes them feel attacked if they are cheaters or polyamorous. Usually informing me how ‘ignorant’ I am, or how ‘judgemental’ I am… for simple express my own rules for myself.
Their post history includes anti-immigration views and comments in favor of AI copy-paste posts. I guess that answers it…
I didn’t even bother scrolling past that.
To the downvoters:
What makes you disagree? Did OP make some sort of clear point in a different post in their history, or what did I miss? Because right now by downvoting you’re just proving OP right. Downvoting without clear cause and interaction. The reply to this comment is a nothing burger.
there you go. we don’t tolerate fascism.
I actually did scroll past that.
You are the problem, and so are the people who upvoted you without at looking for themselves at all.
It’s always a persecution complex with them.
How dare you persecute me for encouraging the persecution of immigrants!!!
op: lemmy is so intolerant against my views!
insert untitled goose with a knife chasing op: what views, fucker?
it’s not always like this, but it happens so often i’m not surprised
This accurately represents every time someone posted something like this and I saw it lol
Speaking up for people wanting to cut back on their personal porn use.
I mean… it’s fine to have a community for that. But don’t expect the rest of the site to not disagree with you.
But go start a community for that. Ban people who come into your community and are jerks.
Disagreement is perfectly fine as long as it’s civil and actually about what’s being said. That’s not what’s happening here - you instantly get accused of having malicious secret motives, as is demonstrated below. It’s just a way to shut down discussion instead of actually engaging with it.
why do you assume they want to engage with it?
they are shutting it down because they want to shut it down. they want to ridicule and belittle and harass.
get accused of having malicious secret motives
Pattern matching does that. And it’s unfortunate. But so many people in that community do have those motives. And as a member of that community, it’d be great if you could help shout them down (and if you already do, thanks!)
Not everyone struggling with compulsive porn use is part of the NoFap community.
I’m not, and I shouldn’t have to answer for the “crimes” of anyone else just because they’re dealing with a similar issue as I am. They don’t represent me, and I don’t represent them. It makes zero sense to take the views of the loud extremist minority and slap them onto the entire group. Most people who self-diagnose with the “porn addiction” label just want help sorting out their own life - they couldn’t care less what anyone else does with theirs.
I call into question your claim that most aren’t like that. But even if most aren’t, it’s what the community is known for.
If you don’t like what the community is known for, you have options. You can try and fix the reputation, you can deal with being stereotyped, or you could just be a person who doesn’t masturbate, and not part of a specific community.
I don’t think there’s a fourth option where you get to be part of the community, which is known for being horrible, but everyone just magically knows you’re not one of those ones.
Personally, I’ve chosen option 3 for most of my proclivities. I don’t drink, but I’m not part of AA because of their religious craziness. I don’t eat meat, but I’m not out here supporting PETA.
I explicitly stated in my previous response that I’m not part of that community. I’m just an individual dealing with an issue, and I have compassion for all the other individuals facing the same thing - people who are too ashamed or afraid to seek help or even tell anyone about it. Seeing the response it gets here, even from folks who probably pride themselves on being empathetic and compassionate - yeah, I don’t blame those people for staying silent.
This isn’t about supporting a community or pushing some ideology. It’s about raising awareness that real people struggle with this stuff. It’s not sexual shaming or defying God - it’s about taking back control of their own lives. As with anything, the dose makes the poison. Nobody I’ve talked to about this thinks porn or masturbation is inherently bad - they’re just the kind of person who takes it too far, to the point it starts causing real harm in their life. They don’t have an agenda. They need help, and I feel for them.
If even a single person feels seen by my comment - the one that gets downvoted into oblivion by the haters - and gets even the tiniest sliver of help or hope from it, then it was 100% worth it.
Gooning is a god-given right
And I don’t want to take that away from anyone. I just wish it didn’t affect my own life to the extent that it has for the past 20+ years.
I’m going to struggle writing this because the logic is so hard to follow but db0 blocked my whole (GERMAN) instance because my (again, GERMAN) instance moderates against hate-speech against Jews, making us Zionist fascists, somehow.
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Look carefully at the modlogs in the screenshots and understand db0 admins think that it’s the feddit.org mods that are in the wrong for removing the hateful comments. It took me several minutes to comprehend that the screenshots were supposed to be proof that Feddit.org people are Zionists, because the mods are removing hate-speech. The screenshots are NOT proof of hatespeech on Feddit against Palestinian people.
In the eyes of db0, the GERMAN INSTANCE IS EVIL because it doesn’t platform enough anti-semitism.
The ANARCHIST instance is mad at the GERMAN INSTANCE for not allowing hateful rhetoric of Jewish people.
Apparently we believe in freedom of speech—so long as the speech is something we agree with….
As already mentioned, it’s not exclusive to Lemmy/the Fediverse and then, thx to the Fediverse itself, we still can resist:
- the most important thing is that we’re not into some centralized platform whose owner can easily shut out anyone. Banning is still a thing obviously (I regularly hear about admin abusing their power) but one always has the ability to change instance or even to create their own which i is not even an option, say, on Reddit or X.
- Freedom of expression should not mean one should be required to listen to trash ideas. Here again, the Fediverse/Lemmy/Piefed already offers great tools to filter out what and who one doesn’t want to hear… without limiting their freedom of expression. Meaning that I, for example, am not forced to see the huge amount of low quality posts that are posted (politics and most memes, stuff like that) and that I can also easily block anyone I consider a pain in the butt or that is trying to troll me. Which I do without any hesitation and without ever threatening their own freedom to express themselves. Something I find a lot more friendly to freedom: theirs as well as mine ;)
The issue runs much deeper as, for most people, it seems to not be enough to be able to mute/block someone or some content they disagree with. They want it to vanish for anyone else too. The most… excited even want their author to be removed from the community. So they like to campaign for ban, or worse.
But here again, it’s a much wider issue than with the Fediverse.
It’s people not being educated anymore to tolerate divergence of opinions and, a lot more worryingly imho, not being able, because of that lack of proper education, to listen to nuanced thoughts and ideas and to be able to understand that we can disagree without having to hate on one another. They seem to live in a black or white world, populated with two groups of people: friends, those that are liking the same things and the same ideas they do, and foes, those who dare not like one or more of those things and ideas the ‘friends’ like.
As long as that ‘logic’ is not challenged and put back in its place (trash reasoning) the intolerance to what is different, which hating on one’s values and ideals is, won’t go away. Around here, like everywhere else.
It’s people not being educated anymore to tolerate divergence of opinions and, a lot more worryingly imho, not being able, because of that lack of proper education, to listen to nuanced thoughts and ideas and to be able to understand that we can disagree without having to hate on one another.
What’s most worrying to me is that people don’t even know why they AGREE with the opinions they agree with. For example, most people would agree that bigotry is bad (which it is), but they don’t know how to argue about it.
They’ve got the moral instinct, sure, but zero intellectual grounding. And that’s a problem. Because when people don’t understand why something is wrong, they’re just one propaganda push away from accepting a new definition of “bigotry” that serves whoever’s in power.
We’re seeing it happen in real time. People repeat opinions like they’re reciting scripture - no thought, no critique, just blind agreement. And now, even asking people to think critically about why bigotry is wrong is seen as suspect. It’s an immediate failure of purity testing. You’re not supposed to arrive to the conclusion that bigotry is bad by thinking for yourself, you are just supposed to keep repeating the correct slogans. That’s not just lazy, it’s anti-intellectualism, the exact kind of mental rot that populism and fascism thrive on. That’s exactly the kind of bullshit that got USA in the state it is right now.
I have literally been called a fascist for telling people to think for themselves.
They’ve got the moral instinct, sure, but zero intellectual grounding.
And since we should not trust ‘moral’ anything without at least some understanding of it… that’s not a good situation. At least, that’s how I see it.
We’re seeing it happen in real time. People repeat opinions like they’re reciting scripture
Which is funny realizing how most of them are so hostile towards the Bible or anything religion-related while they’re at the same time mindlessly repeating/mimicking (what I consider) the worst of all the religious traits: blind adherence to an ideology/ideal, as well as the refusal to listen to critics.
That’s exactly the kind of bullshit that got USA in the state it is right now.
Can’t talk about the USA myself: the world is a tad larger and also includes a few foreign countries, including my own: France ;)
I have literally been called a fascist for telling people to think for themselves.
I have been called many names during my almost 60 years on this planet (fascist not even being the worst), and I learned to not bother: hateful believers will remain hateful believers no matter what, even those who only believe in ‘social something’ instead of ‘god’. They won’t change, or just maybe their believe switching from one to the latest trendy one. Meanwhile, I will keep on refusing to blindly adhere to any type of faith, with or without a god ;)
Yep. the motto here for most ‘free thinkers’ is ‘agree with me or you are a bad person’. They don’t really want to discuss things, they just want to browbeat/bully other people into agreement. They refuse to acknowledge things are complex and that their are various legitimate viewpoints… there can only be their pure and true version of whatever ideology they believe in and anyone who questions their interpretation it is a ‘false’ believer.
It’s idealism and egotism running into each other. So they just feel like going around labeling everything bigotry makes them some paragon of morality and truth and justice. Meanwhile they have no understanding of their own bigotry.
Well said. It is so frustrating when people don’t understand that people disagreeing with them does not mean their freedom of speech is being violated.
Even the banning example, which is commonly pointed to as violating freedom of speech, is typically (not saying it is always) used when the user is breaking civility rules or rules established by the community which the user assented to by participating in the community discourse.
Well said. It is so frustrating when people don’t understand that people disagreeing with them does not mean their freedom of speech is being violated.
Thx.
Quite a few of them will remain incapable to understand that, no matter what we can try too encourage them, but I want to think the vast majority can’t because they were not educated to understand it.
Schools (as well as many parents, I’m afraid) have failed many of the younger people/generation. Being old myself, as a teen in the early 80s I started witnessing that failure spreading like fire in the few public schools I had friends in (I was lucky enough to be in a private school, a religious one where they insisted on using a… stricter approach to teaching, a more demanding one too).
Public schools have failed so badly it’s hard to realize parents have not been on the streets demanding an urgent reform. But they obviously don’t manifest much for that, like if not educating their kids was no big deal. Those kids, if they were given the opportunity to access some proper education (and to the more… radicals out there: ‘proper’ should not be understood as ‘perfect’ or ‘faultless’) they would quickly learn to accept difference of opinions, and even extremely conflicting ideas. Even more, I have little doubt many would start to value it, realizing it’s an opportunity for everyone.
Alas, we’re far from that. And, as an older person (I’m nearing my 60s), when you try to point out the issue, that catastrophic and dramatic failure of school and adults towards kids… Most will either refuse to listen, disqualifying the remark as mere nostalgia from someone too old to understand the modern world and its many new problems (which is another interesting demonstration of prejudice, btw). Entirely missing the point. Alas.
Even the banning example,
Being banned from a private space (online or IRL) is not a violation of the freedom of speech (which BTW is mostly an US-based thing, while a lot of the fediverse is not from there), it’s the right of the owner to decide who can and cannot enter in and stay to their place, and what they can do there.
The issue is when that legit right is used to silence dissent ideas and thoughts. Like it can easily be done on X or Reddit, or any other centralized platform. Hence me pointing out that the Fediverse is more resilient to that kind of abuse… even if it is not immune to it and to admins abusing their powers and behaving like miniature wannabe dictators. At least, like I said, one can always switch community or create a new one. Even a whole instance.
When people try to bully you into silence and complicity, it is very much being violated.
The vast majority of my replies on lemmy here are rarely more than name-calling and threats.
Your free speech is not violated when someone disagrees with you. Your free speech is violated when the government stops you from speaking your mind. “Bullying” may be not nice, but it’s not a free speech issue. That’s just two people having a disagreement in an uncivilized manner.
Right, so when I pull a gun on you, it’s just free speech?
No dude, it’s assault. Lots of people control speech in online spaces by taking out virtual guns. Threats of banning, harassment, doxxing etc.
I don’t know about you, I was involved in a subreddit years ago where members would stalk and harass people over online comments. Like drive to their house and take photos then post them online. That’s not disagreement, that’s bullying and being a psychopath who think they have every right to abuse and silence someone else for what they said.
Here’s a little guide:
- Threats of banning, having unpopular views, being mean, uncivil discussion <-- Not against the law. “Free speech” discussion doesn’t apply. Just two parties having a disagreement.
- Assault, legit harassment, libel, doxxing, etc <-- Against the law and you can be arrested/fined/sued. “Free speech” discussion applies, but in the case of these, the government has indicated that the speech is not protected under free speech. It’s about the government enforcing which speech is allowed and what is not.
In the cases presented:
- What OP talked about in the initial post was not a free speech issue. The government isn’t involved unless a law was broken, which I don’t think it has.
- What you’re talking about here regarding harassment/doxxing IS a free speech issue because the law will stop the harasser and technically infringe on their right to “speak.” However, in this case, at least in the US judicial system has said that harassment falls outside of the allowable speech covered under the law and so it’s okay for the government to infringe on that right for this case.
Does that make sense?
I experience Lemmy as a reflection of many of the problems in the world
You’ve said it yourself. It’s not unique to Lemmy. This is just a smaller platform with therefore more biases. You could keep trying and show new visitors with your viewpoints that they have a space here. E.g. Lemmy is slowly becoming less try-hard anarchistic. But honestly with your viewpoints, whether it’s about AI or strict immigration, I consider it too difficult and unrealistic currently.
It’s the karma system. People stop talking to you and start performing for an audience instead. A good dunk never changed anyone’s mind - but it wasn’t intended to. They were just hoping for applause.
Then other people see what gets applause here and what gets booed, so they tweak their takes to match. Everyone likes applause and nobody wants to be booed. And that’s exactly how an echo chamber gets born.
very few instances have it enabled. calculating it from non-home instance is a bit pointless because heavily downvoted stuff tends to be moderated out and therefore inaccessible
if you mean downvotes in general, i think that’s a very good thing, because when you disagree with something, you can just downvote and move on, and when downvotes are out, it’s a shield for trolls and assholes, and additionally when disagreeing you feel compelled to comment instead and end up like hexbear
Post scores are visible for individual replies and that’s enough to signal to people what views are okay to share and which ones aren’t.
Yeah and it’s a good signal about what each instance is like, and where to move to
Well I fundamentally disagree with that as I’ve explained above.
Also, very few people just hang on their own instance. You’re a sopuli user replying to feddit user in a lemmy.world thread. Anyone can up- and downvote you here. The choise of instance doesn’t make much of a difference.
