Why isn’t this a popular thing?
Because “the markets open at 9” is an international standard that everyone can count on. You could stagger it so that one country’s market opens at 10, then another at 12, and so on, but then what if one country chooses a different standard? What if a restaurant picks a different convention than businesses in one area? Time zones are great because once you understand them, you’ll always know how time works locally, anywhere in the world with a single piece of information, it’s a truly successful standard.
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Maybe it would be easier if the earth would be flat :)
On the other hand, we could refine time zones so they’re continuous instead of discrete chunks. Then every step you take adjusts the time. Would be more “accurate.”
I believe no one else mentioned this but… China is a case study of why this is a terrible idea
The entire PRC uses the same time zone, even though in any other parts of the world, China should have been split to at least 3 different timezones
It is very disorienting to try and go for breakfast in Tibet at 9 am to find that nothing is open and the sun is just out… So yeah. Imagine if this is extended to 12-hr differences
Wikipedia has a nice summary of this
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But again, why should most of us waste our time when we’re almost never troubled by time zone changes?
But won’t you think of the poor developers who have to occasionally write software that handles local times?!
(Or the poor international business person who has to coordinate virtual meetings around the globe?!?)
Why should the UK get to be the only place with an accurate local time? I don’t want to live on UK time.
Because that would be a nightmare. “I’ll meet you for lunch at 2AM”, “No, I had a huge breakfast yesterday”. You would need to relearn the times every time you went to a different place, “oh, right, the restaurants only serve lunch until 10AM” or “Sorry sir, but there’s an extra fee for night time services starting 1PM”. Those are much more likely day-to-day phrases than scheduling a meeting with someone from another continent. And you don’t gain anything by this, because whenever you’re communicating across timezones you can simply use UTC as a standard and everyone knows how to convert that to their own time. So there’s no good reason and a lot of drawbacks.
I am baffled that needs explanation!
Only because we’re already familiar with the current way of doing things, though. If we had all been on UTC for our entire lives, it would be a simple matter of getting to a new place, asking when local noon is, and going about our business.
“Hey, when is local noon here?”
“'bout 0330.”
“Cool, thanks. Want to get together for drinks tomorrow night? Say, around 1045?”
They’re all just numbers. They have no inherent meaning, only what we imbue then with.
It would get a little bit tricky with the date switching over in the middle of the day, of course. In my mind, that’s the biggest reason.
Why exactly is asking for “what time is the local noon” more convenient than asking “what timezone is this”?
How is “local noon is at 2:45” somehow easier to adjust to than “adjust your clock by X hours”? You don’t need to relearn every thing like what time breakfast is served when local noon is 08:50.
It’s not more convenient. I’m just saying we’d have been used to that and just as weirded out by the idea of time zones if that was all we’d ever known.
No we wouldn’t.
One of these is a logical thing, we measured time in the relative passing of days.
Having “our local noon is 0550pm” is dumb as rocks and nowhere comparable to time zones. Unlike some people have prolly told you, not every idea is equal.
Now go ahead and read what it’s doing in China and see our glorious idea at work
Having “our local noon is 0550pm” is dumb as rocks and nowhere comparable to time zones.
How is “our local noon is at 1200” any more objectively logical? Midnight is an objectively arbitrary time to start the new date. The best you can say is that it’s twelve hours before local noon, but even if you index off of local noon it doesn’t make any more logical sense to put the 0 while most people are asleep. Someone who hasn’t grown up with our clock might well say, “why would we choose a clock that puts the beginning of the usable part of the day at 6 or 7 for most people?” Calling the hour when people wake up 0000 or 0100 would make a lot of logical sense.
Unlike some people have prolly told you, not every idea is equal.
Numbers have no inherent meaning. We could make noon happen at 0000, 1200, 2200, whatever–and people would find it completely intuitive if they grew up in it all their lives.
I’m not saying that “every idea is equal.” That’s patently nonsense. What I’m saying is that, if you’re going to have a 24-hour clock indexed to noon, putting noon at 1200 makes just as much sense as putting it at any other time on that 24-hour clock.
Now go ahead and read what it’s doing in China and see our glorious idea at work
Sounds like the answer is “fine.” People in Xinjiang wake up a couple of hours late, start work at 1100, have lunch at 1400, and often watch the sun set at midnight. They continue to live there and continue to have a pretty normal life. The only weirdness comes from talking to people in other time zones, which again would not be a problem if everyone in the world had started with this from their youth.
Again, I’m not trying to suggest that it’s better. I’m just saying that this arbitrary choice about how to handle time around the world is not any better or worse than any other arbitrary choice we could have made; it’s only because we know our current method so well that we think any other method is weird.
You don’t know what “arbitrary” means…
Noon or midnight aren’t arbitrary. They’re the exact opposite. Noon is the middle of the day. The exact middle point of one revolution of our planet (roughly, days aren’t actually exactly a day long but that’s too advanced for you lol).
The exact middle of the day, recognisable to most people simply by looking up, is the exact opposite of arbitrary.
Numbers have no inherent meaning
Uh, yes they do. That’s why they’re called numbers. “2” means || that many things and “5” means ||||| means that many things. There’s literally an inherent meaning in them.
There’s also actual reason as to why the day is divided the way it is, but seeing how proud you are of your overbearing ignorance, I’m not gonna educate you on what it is.
Hours weren’t always the same length, it’d depend on the length of the time of day. Do you know what doesn’t change? Noon being in the middle of the day. Because we’re on a revolving piece of rock in space and no matter how much you stomp your foot and cry foul, noon will still always be non-arbitrary
What you need is a fkin dictionary bruh
Sounds like the answer is “fine.”
Ah, some deeply meaningful willfull ignorance, because you can’t admit you backed a moronic idea.
Noon or midnight aren’t arbitrary.
I didn’t say they were. I said that the numbers we’ve attached to them are.
(roughly, days aren’t actually exactly a day long but that’s too advanced for you lol).
Strong words from someone who only reads three out of every five words.
The exact middle of the day, recognisable to most people simply by looking up, is the exact opposite of arbitrary.
Calling it the “middle of the day” is. It could very easily be the beginning of the day, or three-quarters of the way through the day. If you had lived with that your whole life, you would think it was normal.
There’s literally an inherent meaning in [numbers].
Not as they’re used in timekeeping. I’m sorry, I didn’t realize I needed to explain something so simple to you as “the words I use are meant to be interpreted in the context in which I’m using them.”
There’s also actual reason as to why the day is divided the way it is, but seeing how proud you are of your overbearing ignorance, I’m not gonna educate you on what it is.
That’s a lot of words to say “I don’t know but there’s probably a reason.”
The real reason is “because the ancient Egyptians arbitrarily decided to divide it into twelve hours.” As for indexing solar noon as 12:00, well, it actually didn’t always; in fact, the word “noon” comes from the Latin word for “nine.” The first hour of the day (when people woke up) was 1:00, roughly analogous to our 6am, and nine hours later (our 3pm) was “noon.” The reason it became solar noon was that they observed a sort of coordinated universal time! Noon drifted earlier in the day as the center of culture drifted.
Hours weren’t always the same length, it’d depend on the length of the time of day. Do you know what doesn’t change? Noon being in the middle of the day.
Sure it does. Other cultures make noon the beginning of the day, or make sunset the beginning of the day. Yes it changes the lengths of time periods. You only think it’s weird because you’ve always known a world where noon was the middle of the day.
Because we’re on a revolving piece of rock in space and no matter how much you stomp your foot and cry foul, noon will still always be non-arbitrary
True. But noon as equal to 1200 will always be arbitrary, because we’re on a rock in space and it didn’t come with any numbers on it.
Ah, some deeply meaningful willfull ignorance, because you can’t admit you backed a moronic idea.
Once again, I beg you to actually use some reading comprehension. I haven’t backed any ideas. But it’s easier to sling insults than to read carefully and come up with a cogent response.
So every time you deal with somebody in a different location, you can’t assume anything about the hours and times you have to ask them or go look it up Even if you have a decent idea where they live because you’re not going to know the time disparity of every city out there.
That’s not too different from how it is now. In fact it might be worse, because once you know a time you have to remember not only a time but the offset that you know the time in.
So… like it is already? Ever tried to call someone in a different time zone? It’s fine-ish 1 or maybe 2 hours off, but much beyond that still requires a minimum of research.
Okay, I get it, you don’t know time zones already so you have to research every time but most people don’t think of the other people please.
Your ring up a person, they go “why the fuck are you calling me at 09:45?”, sounding really upset. You don’t understand why. He’s in a place where that means it’s the middle of the night and as a local he understands it.
Oooor
He could just say “do you know what time it is here? It’s two am!” and you’d understand.
No, in this hypothetical scenario, he wouldn’t complain about it being 0945 because he’s grown up in a world where that’s ambiguous. He’s going to say, “Don’t you know it’s the middle of the night here?!”
because he’s grown up in a world where that’s ambiguous
No he hasn’t. Never moved a or traveled outside his own city.
That why this “make everyones time the same” is about as smart as an idea as shoving Lego up your nose.
Are you suggesting that this is a world without the internet or international television programs? He’s going to know that hours are different everywhere, especially if he has friends in other regions.
That why this “make everyones time the same” is about as smart as an idea as shoving Lego up your nose.
Only because the current way is the one you know. In this alternate universe where the whole world has always been on UTC and someone posted a question on Lemmy asking why the whole planet isn’t divided up into 1-hour offsets with their own times, that universe’s version of you would be just as irrationally angry with that universe’s version of me for daring to suggest that the time zone idea is no less irrational than the UTC idea.
Answer quickly, if noon is 0330 what time is dinner, what is a 9-5 job and what time do you expect to have breakfast. There are lots of adjustments you will need to make, whereas with the current system you know that as a general rule you can expect dinner at around 8, most people to work 9-5, and places to serve breakfast at 8 or 9, so you switch your clock when you arrive and you’re done.
If you’re a local who never moved timezones z then yeah it makes no difference what the numbers are, you would get used to waking up at 9PM and switching date midway through the day, there might even be 2 different words for tomorrow, one for the next day one for the next date, but the moment you traveled to a different location all of your years of being used to general time where things happen go out the window, it’s much more of a hassle than adjusting your clock and assuming times will be mostly similar.
Yep. I can tell you that dinner would be around 0930, but you’re right that the other calculations are tougher.
I’m not saying this would be better. Either system has trade-offs. I’m saying that each of them would be equally weird from the other side.
We should also all work 9am-5pm of course.
Edit: it would be wild because in the USA the shops would open in the middle of the night etc.
Who are you, a service employee? In our country, office workers’ shifts are 7-15 and factory workers’ 6-14, plus 14-22 and 22-6 in two/three-shift operations. The workday opening hours of small businesses are approximately:
- Convenience shops: 6-7 to 18-21 (overwhelmingly run by the Vietnamese minority)
- Pubs: 10-16 to 20-24
- Bakeries: 6 to 15-16
- Clothes stores, jewelry etc.: 8-10 to 16-18 (closest to a “9-5”)
- Hairdressers, massage parlors: by appointment, usually 10-20
People who ever work after 16:00 are a minority.
To be fair, a lot of office jobs (in Prague at least) are 9-17, or 8-16. Unless you meant government offices, which do open earlier with standart 8(7.5)hr shift
CZECH FOUND
You’ve been added to the list. There’s nearly 10 of us, almost enough to keep !prague@feddit.org afloat!
That would be shifting from timezone to “workzone” or “noonzone”. At this moment you need to setup a meeting with people, then you ask which is their timezone. With global UTC timezone, then you need to ask, which are your work hours? (workzone).
With global UTC timezone, then you need to ask, which are your work hours?
Which would be beautiful because you’d instantly gain an intuitive understanding of how that overlaps with your own work hours instead of having to do a conversion.
You’re doing a conversion when you ask that question. My point is, there is no gain, is just converting one system for another that requires the exact work. Then we’ll have tables of “workzones per country” and we need to do the same conversion to setup a meeting.
Because we like midnight to happen at night, and noon to happen during the day
And you’d still have to adjust to local time anyway! Travel three timezones and now noon is at 9 instead of 12. Your alarm to wake up at 6, now needs to be at 3.
Literally sounds a lot worse. Imagine telling your friend in Europe from the USA “ugh, I have to get up at 10 AM for work!” And the european responds with “10am is pretty late!”
Why would you want to get up every day at 6 am from three time zones over?
Sunrise at 06:00 UTC in one timezone would occur at 03:00 UTC three timezones over, I mean. The relationship between standard time and local, solar noon based time (sunrise, noon, sunset, midnight) is going to have a flexing relationship across different places on Earth. So if you’re travelling or even communicating across timezones, you haven’t fixed anything by using UTC since daily activities (sleep, meals, etc.) are still correlated to when the sun is up or not. Timezones communicates that daily relationship with time pretty effectively without having to do a lot of thought about it all the time.
Sunrise at 06:00 UTC in one timezone would occur at 03:00 UTC three timezones over
Right, but I wouldn’t want to keep my daily routine aligned to a different time zone than where I am.
So if you’re travelling or even communicating across timezones, you haven’t fixed anything by using UTC since daily activities (sleep, meals, etc.) are still correlated to when the sun is up or not
Exactly. So why would I want to adjust my alarm to 3am after travelling 3 time zones? I only care about relating the time between two zones for real-time communication with people in the other zone. And I’m not getting up at 3am for them.
I don’t understand what you’re asking here. I’m saying if you kept UTC in every place on earth, you’d still have to relate those hours to a solar based local time. If you wake up at 6UTC in London and then travel to Moscow, the sun in Moscow would rise 3 hours earlier (guessing, not sure exactly what time time difference is). So if Moscow was also keeping UTC, they would set their alarms for 3UTC to wake up with the sun. If you travel to Moscow, you’d wake up at 3UTC with the sun, which is the equivalent of 3am London time, but is around sunrise locally. This is just how time zones work, so I have no idea where the confusion is.
I mistook your original comment about the alarm clock. I wasn’t reading it as the clocks in all timezones being set to UTC and rather that you wanted to keep your daily routine aligned with the daily solar cycle of the time zone you left.
Ahh, no! I was agreeing with the top comment that using UTC everywhere would cause more problems. Glad we’re on the same page now!
stop calling it “midday” and “midnight” and it works
Not very convenient if a date change happens during your typical workday and that your meeting is from Monday 23:00 o’clock until Tuesday 1:00 o’clock. I mean, sure, we could deal with it, but locally it only adds new complexity.
Sure, you could talk with anyone in the world and agree on a time without misunderstandings, but as soon as you want to know if people in the other country are even awake at that time, or if it’s during business hours, you need to do the same calculations as before and need to look up how many hours the schedule is shifted in that country, similar to before.
My Anki deck (flashcards app) would like to know when it’s the next day. It now uses a standard (configurable) value worldwide (4:00 o’clock, to allow for late nights). If we used UTC everywhere, a standard value wouldn’t make any sense, and you would have to know the local offset, and change it when you are traveling.
Taking about traveling: instead of just changing the time zone on your devices and be done with it, you need to look up what time you should go to sleep and wake up and at what time the stores open to fit the local schedule and none of the hours that you’re used to would make any sense. Let’s have dinner at 19:00 o’clock. No, wait, that’s in the early morning here.
We already have UTC as a standard reference, and we don’t need to adopt it for local time, as long as the offset is clear when communicating across borders. Digital calendars already take time zones into account, so when I’m inviting people from overseas, they know at what time in their local timezone the meeting starts.
The issue is not the time zones, but the fact that we live on a sphere revolving around a star and that our biological system likes to be awake when it’s light outside.
This is exactly right. People don’t wan to change, even if the new way is demonstrably superior. Look at the adoption of the Metric system in England and the (almost) adoption in the US.
UTC isn’t even demonstrably superior.
and the (almost) adoption in the US.
For example:
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1 dry pint is exactly 107521/92400 liquid pints.
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1 liquid pint is exactly 231/8 cubic inches.
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We formally defined the inch in terms of the metric system in the 1950s as being precisely 2.54 centimeters.
Thus making the bushel exactly 220244188543/6250000 cubic centimeters.¹
¹ Unless you’re talking about an oat bushel, a barley bushel, a wheat bushel, or a few other exceptions.
Almost a century ago, the fascist dictator of Spain wanted to appease Hitler and decided to move the timezone from the UK one to the German one. With daylight savings the situation in summer was a bit ridiculous: dark until 9 am and sun until 10 pm, it was very confusing as a tourist to have all the stores to open so late in morning and go out to eat dinner so late
I can’t imagine what kind of mess would be going to Japan as a tourist on UTC+0
The cultural relationship with time is more important than its absolute measurement.
Tell that to the trains.
Trains still accepted that noon should be near the middle of the day. Time zones came from railroads trying to standardize time.
kind of my point. Trains need accurately measured time in order to run properly.
The proposed change to UTC globally does not change the accuracy of time measurements. I think it’s a terrible idea, but I fail to see how your point here relates.
The cultural relationship with time is more important than its absolute measurement.
This was the statement at the top of this discussion. It values the local concept of what time should be over an objective measurement of what time is.
The proposed change wouldn’t cause much of a problem. But the idea under the statement I quoted would.
Fair, thanks for the context
It would make it even harder for people to understand when it was in a different timezone. Right now I know that 11pm is late for anyone on thier own timezone. But with no timezone, I would say, the meeting is at 23:00. Thats mid morning for me, what is that for you… the answer is way less exact, and harder to covert.
So you day is my day minus half a morning?It’s because a lot of the way humans go about their life is based on traditions. Getting everybody to switch from a system that already works pretty well is just a hassle.
Examples:
- English spelling is faaar from phonetic and children take longer to learn how to spell than in Spanish for example. (though, cough, enough, plough instead of something like thouğ, koff, enaf and the US plow)
- Metric system adopted globally would streamline a lot of global industries that have no cater to each system.
- Driving right side everywhere. Sweden switched but asking India to switch makes way less sense.
- Date formats. Arguably the best if everyone uses ISO 8601 but nobody does.
I do use ISO 8601
This is a surprisingly divisive topic every time I see it or suggest it. I reckon the divisor is “people who use and work across timezones a lot” and “people who don’t”. Fuck I hate timezones.
You know who hates time zones the most? Programmers.
