I definitely see this as “we can’t get away with the boys club anymore” rather than a problem with Gen Z. Gen Z won’t hide their unhappiness with any of the -isms and will call it out instead of just keeping their head down.
Right, it’s not the lack of skills to disagree. What it is, is the bravery to not tolerate intolerance, and they stand for what they believe the world should be. Making mr grouper proud out here.
Yeah, I’m proud of the younger generation. I see them standing up against the kinda shit that my generation at the same age just accepted or perpetrated.
I’m a millennial but this reminds me of when I first got into the work force and was stuck in an office full of boomers with me being the youngest. I remember the boss would take turns taking shots at different people during meetings, making insensitive racial jokes about people. I eventually got tired of doing the uncomfortable fake laugh so I just sat there stone faced during his jokes. He halted the entire meeting to a stop to ask me why I wasn’t laughing. This is the extent to which office culture must be obeyed and how insecure they get when you don’t go along with it. It’s so pathetic.
“YoU CaNT sAy AnYtHiNg AnYMoRe”
“How am I supposed to compliment a woman these days?”
It’s the same boomers that make those complaints whining about Gen Z
This is exactly it. I’ve seen this exact thing play out a bunch of times. It’s a real threat to them, because so many of these people got to where they are because they know how to work that frat boy culture to their advantage, and now they suddenly have to deal with people who don’t find their shit funny. The reality is that they don’t actually have any real skills besides the politics of being loud and borish.
The thing is, if you say “black lives matter” they’ll quietly run to HR and claim they don’t feel comfortable and they don’t want politics in the workplace. Then they’ll turn right around and go back to talking fondly about their date rape days at Cornell
Fair enough. But if you don’t tell someone why you are unhappy with them or the situation they control, then nothing improves for anyone.
I believe the impetus is on the bigot to figure their shit out. It is exhausting arguing with bigots, and it is not people’s job to teach them how not to be a bigot. There is enough information out there now that you should know not to be an intolerant asshole, and if someone chooses instead to be a piece of shit, I’m comfortable with them being ostracized while they sort themselves out. And if they can’t, I’m comfortable with them dying old, alone and confused wondering why nobody visits them.
This sounds like you are promoting an “I’m right, your wrong, and I have no responsibility to correct or educate.” mentality. I’m not sure if trusting the people with opposing views to change on their own is the best approach. I think only deepens divides and entrenches opposition.
People with opposing ideas do exist in a vacuum and will have no problem putting the time in to recruiting others to their way of thinking and promoting similar thinkers to positions of power and influence. Ostracizing those you disagree can just as easily put you in a bubble of isolation, or an echo chamber, as them.
Not to mention that discussing opposing ideas improves understanding both by defending your views and by better understanding the why and origins of their ideas.
There’s nothing wrong with having a “not my responsibility to correct or educate mentality”. These assholes are grown adults. If they haven’t figured things out by now then fuck em.
I think that there is something wrong with the “not my job” approach. I believe in the saying “The only thing evil needs to thrive is for good people to do nothing.”
Assuming that everyone has shared in your socioeconomic upbringing and therefore has the same access to diverse ideas is flawed.
I am personally inspired by Daryl Davis, a black musician who, through simple conversation, has convinced grown adult Ku Klux Klan members to change their ways and renounce the KKK.
I believe that people should work towards the changes they want to see manifest in the world.
Yeah, I think you’ve got me right there. When it comes to being a bigot, I do believe in ostracizing and silencing, in order to put them in a tiny fringe echo chamber. That is much safer than having their ideas out in the open. Racists and bigots should be afraid of stating their opinion, this way their backwards-ass ideas die out with them. Because people aren’t racist from well thought out rational thought. Their racist because of emotions like fear and anger. Something is going wrong in their life and it’s easier to blame a marginalized group than it is it take responsibility. No amount of debate will fix that, and I’m tired of trying. Fuck them.
I also firmly believe in the paradox if tolerance. You cannot tolerate the intolerant, and part of that includes not treating their opinions as valid. Because they are not.
I understand the frustration and seeming futility in trying to change the minds of those with opposing views. It takes constant work and vigilance, but it is important challenge their ideas. Even if you make zero impact on them, you can reach other people. Especially if you have the discussion in a public venue, like an internet firum. Even if you don’t change any minds, if you truly believe in something then you should continue to work towards it.
As for the “they should already know better” argument, I wonder if you are familiar with Daryl Davis, a black musician who would sit with members of the KKK and talk to them about their beliefs. He has well over 20 robes from former klansmen who have given him their robes after he changed their views with those conversations. Turns out that most of them have never had anybody calmly listen to and then dispute the racist claims that they grew up with and have heard repeated their whole lives.
Notice how I am talking about confronting and challenging ideas, not tolerating them.
The only thing evil needs to thrive is for good people to do nothing.
I know of him, and applaud him. If I were a better man, perhaps I could do as he did. However, I no longer have that energy in me to waste. What I can do is shut their voices out of my world and my family’s world. From there, I hope the Daryl Davis’s of the world help them heal. But it will not be me.
Not true: boomers will eventually die
I read this as Gen Z doesn’t tolerate the boomer/older Gen X intolerant/racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic bullshit that younger Gen X/Older Millennials had to, and a lot of folks receiving this deserved pushback don’t like it.
¯\(ツ)/¯
Nailed it, except that older Gen X and boomers who weren’t part of the intolerant majority ALSO had to put up with all that bullshit.
Very good point that I should have included. Thanks!
I hate these generation based things. Some little time ago there was odd stuff about millennials everywhere. Now Gen-Z. In a few years Gen Alpha. Then whatever comes next and so on.
People just like to label people. And generations are just another option.
I’m Gen X. They used to say this stuff about us too. Did you know we’re all slackers?
Sure, sure, reality bites, we get it!
Agreed, but I see plenty of Millennials and Gen-Zers making plenty of criticisms and jokes about Boomers all the time. It’s no better when we do it.
Man, I’ve started to see it happening between just the Millennials and the Gen-Z. I assume a good chunk of it is for rage bait/views, at least that’s what I’m hoping for. It’s so much better when we’re working together to try to better the future.
Never seen this besides on algorithm driven social platforms tho…
I do see boomer hate every tho
Regardless of where it’s seen, it’s still a bad habit we all need to break. It only perpetuates in creating division.
Most of the internet traffic is bots paid for by bad actors ;)
Consider that fact when approaching online discussions
This whole thread is like, “Fuck YOU! We don’t have communication problems! It’s all you old fuckers!”
Well. Would you look at that.
Lmao I love how you guys are getting downvoted to hell for having differing opinions too
Oh the irony
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Very well put
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No, it’s more that the boomers/older Gen X treats any sign of even polite disagreement as attacks on their very character. Many of them simply cannot accept that their views are outdated, and any challenges to their view is a disrespectful slight.
It’s very telling that many of them still complain about millennials as children ruining everything to this day, when the oldest millennials are in their early 40s, and they are somehow shocked that Gen Z is even more progressive and vocal about their views than us millennials.
It’s impressive, you’re absolutely everywhere :o
It’s rare for me to have this much free time, you’ll probably see a lot less of me here once work starts again.
You will be sorely missed then.
But not in my bedroom 🥲
Not to mention some views of older folks are absolutely bigoted. But it’s the kids who are wrong, apparently.
Look, I don’t care at all what views my coworkers might possess. And that’s the problem. Because when one of these fuckwits starts going on a bigoted rant at work, I do NOT want to hear it, and I surely don’t give a damn about it. So yeah, no, we can’t work alongside fuckwits. If they knew how to shut up, we could.
Let me paraphrase: Gen Z refuse to take any bullshit from deluded boomers.
This could definitely be
editorializededited for length but it’s an interesting read.I’ve definitely felt exactly what they’re talking about. I know many people as described.
Edited for length. Editorializing is introducing your opinion into otherwise pure factual news.
This millennial can’t either.
Honestly this isn’t a gen z thing, it’s just a shit article thing. 70% of this piece is just this one fucking guy bitching about the “kids these days”
Ya, my boss is someone who always makes it about generation this and generation that.
It’s not about generations, if baby boomers had the technology we have today they’d have done the same stupid shit.
Welp, Gen Z, it’s your time in the furnace I guess.
I remember when “Millennials are ruining everything” articles were the fodder for lazy writers, now it’s crap like this.
I remember when we killed Applebee’s? That was a fun weekend.
To be fair, Applebee’s needed to be ruined.
I agree but I’ll still miss the quesadilla burger. It was the only half-decent item in their menu.
We just figured out we can microwave our own food
We just reposting the same things from 10 years ago with “millennials” replaced by “gen z?”
Shut up you
millennialgen z snowflake! You’ll take the recycled content and enjoy it/s, if it wasn’t obvious….I’m noting that same trend myself.
Does that mean Gen Z are going to kill the diamond industry again?
Turgenev enters the chat . . .
Same thing as thousands of years ago.
No, there’s a radical difference here. Yeah, some of these stories are “young people today” bullshit that will always be true. Gen Z truly got fucked by the pandemic and social media.
Judging by the comments here, there won’t be any discussion. Which kinda proves the point.
Article ignores key factors of why people would behave in the office like that…
It is a disingenuous fake news.
There are NO factors for behaving like that in the office. If a young person doesn’t have the basic social skill of shutting the fuck up about politics in the workplace, wouldn’t you say they lack, at the very least, that one simple skill?
Watch these comments for more evidence. Anyone agreeing with the article’s premise, or trying to add discussion/nuance, is getting downvoted with no reply.
In my experience, it’s the boomers who can’t shut the fuck up about politics in the workplace, so trying to lay blame the zoomers for not rolling over and taking it just reeks of more boomer entitlement. shrugs
In my experience, it’s the boomers and fellow far right wing that talk politics in the workplace. Especially when they think it’s a safe space for “locker room talk”. Then they accuse the younger generation of being political because they dare to have LGTBQ+ pins, or don’t want to participate with racism or don’t look down on someone for having dyed hair.
Calling out someone for being racist, sexist or any of the other behaviors that are no longer acceptable isn’t political, despite one side often labeling it as such.
I’m thinking that a lot of the people commenting might work in pretty homogeneous environments.
I work with people from almost every group, and from every background. Calling people out on this horrendous behaviour maintains a safe work environment, and helps eliminate workplace toxicity. You can’t insult a group without also insulting a coworker. Work culture wise, even if they aren’t the target, people get very angry at the people who talk like that. “Why would you say that about Nimmy? Nimmy’s awesome!”. People should be able to earn their livelihoods in peace, imo.
At my job, if you insult a coworker through bigotry, you can expect (at minimum) a long talk with HR for the first offense. (Our HR department is also diverse.) A manager was just fired a few months ago for being bigoted. The best part? NO ONE misses them, not even the company a-holes.
Even from a completely corporate standpoint, it makes sense. You really don’t want that kind of reputation if you want to keep your investors or a family friendly reputation. Media would chew them up and spit them out if they allowed bigotry like that.
Social media is the real world today. Yes, the pandemic put everyone’s life on hold for 3 years and that’s going to screw up people’s formative years, but this article hasn’t done much to separate that out from the gripes every new generation entering the workforce gets.
Fair point on the second bit, but I don’t understand social media being the real world.
You and I are having a real discussion right now. It’s every bit as real as discussion as if we were having it in person.
Social media has been around over 20 years. The attitude that it’s some other world outside the real world that doesn’t count is antiquated. Social media is part of life, just like everything else we do.
I read that as “they voice their opinions too much”.
Yeah, this sounds like, “Gen Z won’t put up with the same levels of bullshit as their predecessors “
The problem is that the things they “disagree” about are sometimes basic scientific facts, like climate change, or beliefs which strongly affect people’s lives negatively, such as racism, anti-lgbt bigotry, or economic views like “it’s just fine to pay people such low wages they can barely afford to live and will never be able to buy a house”.
And why are these politics an issue in the workplace?
I’m 52 and have worked a wide variety of jobs. Nowhere I have been employed was it acceptable to talk politics, except on the down-low with people you knew well. If there was a political discussion where two people disagreed, they either agreed to disagree, or it was quickly dropped.
I’m the same age as you, so I’ve seen the same social and political changes as you have over the last 20 years or so. Some “politics” are just negative moral stances about other people. If your political/moral views make people feel excluded and you make sure we all know your views, whether through explicit political conversation or implicit comments, we are not going to “agree to disagree.” We will be telling the shithead to STFU, and if they don’t, we will be getting HR involved. We can’t and won’t tolerate intolerance in the workplace.
In my experience, in the 80s and 90s, intolerance was pretty commonplace, and racial and moral minorities mostly just had to suck it up. What’s changed is that liberals have “woken up” to that long-standing intolerance, while conservatives want things to stay the same. Up until about 2016, the majority of these conservatives hid their intolerance. Little did we know that they were just seething inside. Then Trump made it okay to be vocally hateful again, and that seething mass of conservatives exploded into public discourse again.
I don’t think Gen Z is incapable of disagreeing with their co-workers in a respectful way. I think they are seeing angry, usually older, conservatives raging about moral issues that they thought were already resolved. Or, they see boomers still denying climate change, which is a real slap in the face for the younger generation who will face the consequences long after those boomers are dead. It is very disconcerting and depressing for Gen Z, and as the father of a couple of Gen Z kids, I’m proud of them for taking a stand.
Agreed with almost all that! Except the last bit…
they are seeing angry, usually older, conservatives raging about moral issues
Where, outside social media, is this happening? Worked all sorts of positions over 30+ years and the times I’ve heard politics in the workplace are memorable because they’re so rare.
Maybe I’m out of touch, but I rarely saw it in the past, and even less so now that we’ve been so politically polarized. And I notice none of the younger folks are chiming in with their own anecdotes, just the assumption that Boomers are the badies, spouting bullshit in the workplace.
Millennial here. I hear a lot more anti woke, PC, LGBT, etc talk than I would like. Both the Bud Light and Target “controversies” I heard about at work because people were apparently enraged by it.
“Cancel culture” forgot that in my comment above but it gets thrown around like the candy at Halloween
I’m an older millennial, mid 80s birthday, and I hear at least one GenX or Boomer make jokes about how they ‘can’t make jokes anymore’ or ‘uh oh the woke police we’ll get me if I say that’ or ‘everyone’s so sensitive these days’ or ‘that’s probably not politically correct’ a week. I’ve had more than one boss in my life talk about ‘welfare queens’ and ‘ObamaPhones’ and another that outright denied climate change. One of my co-workers was recently talking about how ‘slavery has been everywhere throughout human history, so why are the US so evil for it still?’. Had another one ask me if the neighborhood of the city I live in is safe now that we’ve ‘defunded the police’ which no we haven’t.
I’ve encountered people talking politics everywhere I’ve ever worked in my 15-year career in tech over 4 different companies, 3 in the Fortune 500. It’s not always from boomers, but it is always something along those same beats of either complaining about how things have changed, and they can’t say whatever they want to whoever they want, some bullshit right wing talking point, or concern over non-existent crime.
I envy you. I work for a university. I started in 2017 and it took about 30 minutes for my conservative lab mate to start talking to my Mexican ass about how “we need to build the wall.” That’s just one of the many times this person went on racist rants, unprompted. Though to be fair they were not a boomer, so it’s a problem that spans generations.
In my case, we had a very religious guy in the office. Elder Gen X, not quite a boomer. He was very open about being evangelical and morally conservative, which was perhaps irritating to some, but tolerable. But then Trump and COVID happened and he went off the deep end, spouting COVID conspiracy theories and talking about supporting Trump and the Bible and the end-times. We eventually had to fire him.
The problem since 2016 is that people don’t have to be explicitly “talking politics” for their intolerant views to be known. Trump isn’t really a “conservative” in any traditional sense. He is a crass hate machine, and that is his overwhelming brand. So, if you support him, you are pretty much advertising that you are intolerant. It isn’t hard to see how that would be hostile to young people who have been raised to be tolerant above all else.
Because whether some people are allowed to exist is politics now, and gen z and others aren’t going to quietly let bosses/coworkers banally brutalize people anymore without pushback.
The workplace is steeped in politics, like every other part of your life. The discussions dont have to be about politics day in day out, but somethings have to be addressed directly, work or not.
Basically, if youre workplace is fair and decent, then you likely wont hear anyhting about politics. if it’s full of bigots/abuse, well, people arent putting up with it anymore.
I’m not really sure what the person in the article means. It says something about “lockdown-era students can’t hold down a heated discussion”… but why would they be having heated discussions? It also says
Miami University even organized a dinner with senior leaders in order to teach proper mealtime etiquette, such as how to engage in conversation on neutral topics.
which makes it sound like it’s older people who bring up inappropriate political topics in an inflammatory way.
That may be! But again, I have never seen anyone, of any age, bringing up politics. (EDIT: Didn’t mean to say “never”. Very rarely is more true.
In any case, if a coworker is being an argumentative ass, it’s on the listener if they choose to fight back, be the bigger person. A workplace political disagreement doesn’t rise to the level of being punched in the nose, you don’t have to fight back. :)
The issue is that conservative, bigoted people don’t view their hateful ideologies as political. They speak negatively of marginalized groups as if their opinion is banal fact instead of inflammatory hatefulness. I’m a middling Millennial and I’ve had Boomer and Gen X managers that spout misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, and racist bullshit like they’re talking about the weather. Sometimes I called them out, and other times I kept my head down and just got out of the situation, but the steadfast way they hold on to their bigoted beliefs leads them to see their opinions as non-political and any disagreement as obscene and unacceptable.
don’t view their hateful ideologies as political
But social media tells me, over and over again, that liberal ideas are simply “right”, and are in no way political? I’m not about to “both sides” general politics, but yeah.
And where the hell have you worked that managers speak like this? I’ve had bottom-of-the-barrel shit jobs, and damned good jobs, mostly in highly conservative regions.
Hell, one place was owned and ran by conservative evangelicals. I can count twice that a superior brought up politics, and both times the topic was approached like, “Shalafi, you’re liberal. What do you think of $X?” And we had a solid discussion. Also, no one questioned my religion or lack thereof. (I admit, that was probably an outlier of a company.)
I’ve pushed back a time or two over 30+ years, but I’m having a hard time getting my head around the idea that bigotry is a common workplace experience. I’d jump that sinking ship with the quickness. Those sorts of businesses tend to torpedo themselves, especially now days.
There are tons of liberal ideas that are considered political. But there’s also a ton “liberal ideas” that should just be the standard.
For example, the very idea about not talking politics could be considered PC culture. Working together with people you disagree with is considered woke. Same with not being allowed to tell racist, sexist, homophobic jokes. These are only “liberal ideas” because conservatives made those topics political by being against them.
It was in the Bay Area in tech jobs. They would very casually be derisive about trans gender identity, calling it “attention seeking” and “a mental illness”. The racist statements mostly came in the form of offensive stereotypes and deferential treatment of those that they did not think less of for their race. To them, it was normal behavior and casual conversation. They were more likely to get heated about their sports team than they would about acknowledging the intrinsic value and human rights of other people. It makes it very hard to call out when they say horrible things in casual, laid-back tones. There was no anger or passion in these statements, it was just a matter of fact that trans people aren’t real, that women are inferior, that certain races are dirty criminals… like they were talking about how it was a cloudy or sunny day.
Because those aren’t politics. These are peoples lives. There’s no such thing as agreeing to disagree about if people get to have basic rights. What’s been labeled as political now is denying people the ability to live as they want, ironically taking away the freedom one side claims to love.
issue in the workplace
Think you’re going to win hearts and minds by arguing at work? No, you won’t, you’ll only hurt yourself and cause the opposition to double down, lose more than you gain.
Worse if you’re young and confronting an older coworker! “See, I knew these kids were full of shit. There goes another one.” Counterproductive, ain’t it?
And no, just because one side holds heinous beliefs does not make those beliefs apolitical. Fair definition I found:
the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power
May I invoke Godwin’s Law? :)
Hitler believed Jews were pests that should be exterminated. Many people agreed then and now. Of course that’s a vile position. But it’s still a political position because it guided governance.
Saying, “My opinion is morally correct and that absolves it from the politics descriptor.”, is unhelpful at best. At worst makes the speaker harder to engage.
Why would I have a conversation with someone like that? Sounds like a conservative talking to me. Comes off like, “I’m morally superior and if you disagree, it’s not ‘mere politics’, you are scum unworthy of engaging.”
One more thought for y’all: You can, and should, push back on regressive opinions. But there are plenty of ways to say, “I’m not interested in hearing that bullshit.”, without literally saying that. It’s a social skill, and isn’t the lack thereof among Gen Z the topic at hand?
(Here’s something plain crazy; I’m upvoting your comment for adding to the conversation, even though I disagree.)
Because scientific facts, or social and economic issues (that definitely affect and belong in the workplace) are not “politics” regardless of how much you’d like to label them as such so you can shove them under the rug and forget about them, you retrograde fossilized lich, and because “agreeing to disagree” with assholes who hold harmful opinions only serves to empower them and enable them to keep causing harm.
Go ahead, pick fights at work. See how that works out for you. According to the story, it ain’t working out.
My current company is a Seattle based software dev, about as liberal as it gets. You come talking politics and arguing with people, even though you’re on the “right” side, and you’re fucking fired. Bye.
Like you, I’ve moved around the US quite a bit have have worked at a variety of companies. But I noticed that the article mentions Miami University, which is in southwestern Ohio. People around here have an odd idea of what constitutes rudeness or what should not be discussed at work.
They are ALL IN on politics.
Visitors to our work’s Ohio location (from out of country or out of state) are completely freaked out by it. Locals have no idea that their behavior might be considered rude or inappropriate.
Long story short, I’m not even remotely surprised that a local school is trying to teach people manners.
Or maybe it’s because they have zero patience for people who can’t understand the idea of basic human rights?
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Have your nieces heard of internalized misogyny?
Some guy says some thing. This is no different from an out of touch boomer saying kids these days don’t want to work.
I ain’t gonna give any weight to a freaking anecdote from any one, let alone a manager. Show me the proof or sit down.
Personally I’m just not fond of working with geriatric, lead-poisoned nazis but that’s just me.
