I’ve seen several references to some sort of rift between the users of these instances today. What’s happening?
Locking this thread. Too much pointless fighting happening and reports going out.
I just want to add to the discussion that I think it’s perfectly healthy if two instances don’t like each other and/or have different outlooks - it’s the beauty of the fediverse and having decentralisation that they don’t have to agree on everything.
ml and other tankie instances are actual cess pits of dangerous misinformation, delusion and abusive cult activity
actually bad for members and the wider world
Funny coming from a straight up pro-genocide Zionist.
But that’s exactly the kind of person .world will coddle to “own the commies”
Removed by mod
The point is instances don’t have to federate with them if they’re causing problems for their members but from what I’ve seen I’d say they’re relatively benign, it’s not like they’re fascists.
Visit ML before any major Western election and browse by Local (its default) and you will easily see: ML calls for the literal and actual fall of all Western civilization including the deaths of most to nearly all peoples therein.
Whereas LW does not want that, go figure. 🤷♀️
Something something bOtH sIdEs SaMe.
.ml users are also just immature weirdos. most of my harassing comments calling me insults come from .ml users.
they don’t discuss and they don’t read. they just shout and quote russian/chinese state propaganda about how people living in those countries are so wealthy and liberated and so much better than americans or europeans. and if you do cite sources, they tell you that those are american propaganda and all lies and ONLY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS TELLING THE TRUTH.
oh, and the .ml opening talk about the power of violence and their violent fantasies of killing everyone who has a modicum of economic security and all claim to be the poorest of the poor, which I highly doubt.
I was a communist when I was 15, but even back then I was into the utopia part, not the mass murder fantasy part.
Actual communists here are on Threadiverse seem quite emotionally capable and are among the more pleasant to chat with. Examples there include slrpnk.net. I used to also say db0 though there always seems pushback nowadays whenever I include it, but I can’t get anyone to give me a solid answer as to why besides unsubstantiated accusations that even on their face looks like pure BS to me. So I guess I’ll keep saying it, just noting that it is a controversial point.:-)
Hexbears on the other hand are trolls, pure and simple, with zero regard for anything other than “the dunk” process of pwning someone - or rather, appearing to, from their own extremely childish POV.
Lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml then are the leftist MAGAs, believing in alternative facts rather than living in reality. e.g. most claim that they would move to the likes of North Korea in a heartbeat, except, you know… I guess they took an arrow to the knee or some such. 🤪
I am so glad that I can block people from an entire instance. If I could, I would make an exception to the devs Nutomic and Dessalines out of respect for having offered the Lemmy sourcecode as FOSS, but other than that, I have not missed a single interaction with anyone on Lemmy.ml since I have done so, every time I’ve checked to see what I might be missing. They are the most batshit insane comments across the entirety of the Threadiverse, after Hexbear obviously.
“the only communists who are actual communists are the ones who cater to my sensibilities as a liberal”
The only person spewing alternative facts is you, you can’t seem to regurgitate a post without making up bullshit.
they don’t discuss and they don’t read. they just shout and quote russian/chinese state propaganda
I do not understand how you can’t see the irony here.
they tell you that those are american propaganda and all lies and ONLY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS TELLING THE TRUTH
It’s better than that: you can back them into a position that runs directly counter to official CCP policy and they’ll claim that it’s a “western agitprop translation” from the original language. Support it with translation and testimonials from actual Chinese citizens and those get dismissed because they’re impure enough to speak a dirty western language.
Some fun ice breakers for any ML post:
- Why is it illegal to form a union in China?
- Why does the PRC constitution guarantee freedom of the press but journalists require a liscense? [Bonus: how can you quantify a requirement like “journalist ethics”?]
- Why is the number of executions in China a state secret?
Edit:
Cowbee spending 30k words in this comment section to explain how PRC citizens have so many freedoms but they can’t use them because it could be counter-revolutionary but that’s fine because everyone’s interests are perfectly represented by the proletariat government but they don’t need a vote in central government because that might undermine the state but they wouldn’t vote against the CCP anyway because they’re so open and transparent but the CCP shouldn’t need to tell their citizens when arrests and executions happen but if they do tell you just trust that it’s internal party corruption but a corruptable party doesn’t give the proletariat an exuse organize themselves in other ways, which they could but they definitely…
[and also every ML insists that you don’t know an AES state even if you were born in and lived there half your life, you gotta read more T H E O R Y]
ML calls for the literal and actual fall of all Western civilization
for the record when people say ‘Death to America’ it’s wishing an end to the American government and its settler-colonial state apparatus.
Concern about the ‘fall of Western civilization’ is more often than not a dog whistle signalling reactionary politics.
also this isn’t limited to election seasons, death to america
Death to America
I dunno man, all other things aside (I have no opinion on specific Lemmy instances at all), when you’re quoting Osama Bin Laden as part of your own beliefs or opinion, that’s probably not cool beans, you know?
I dunno man. You have a dog? Hitler had a dog…
Osama Bin Laden and I happen to have the same position that the end of the USA as a political entity would be a positive thing. I probably also agree with him that breathing and having meals is necessary for survival.
Are either of those propositions made less true by virtue of Osama also believing them?
I use she/her in case it doesn’t show up in your app.
This isn’t quoting osama bin laden, it’s an Iranian slogan/expression.
America as a settler-colonial state is a world-historic evil, death to America
This is some “Hitler was a vegetarian” level shit, but the tribalistic hogs here will upvote it anyway
Then consider my (I assume) original: Burn the Burgerreich
Unless it’s not the wording, but the messege that is problematic to you. But no respectable person would out of their own will be a dog of hitlerikkkan empire
Death to America is a saying that goes back much further than Bin Laden, and there have been many good reasons for many people to say it. I’m sure many of the people indigenous to the land (that wasn’t “America” to them) had a probably rather similar phrase and said it probably rather often as that entity commenced with their genocide. And since that time, it’s not as if there hasn’t been a lack of good reasons to call for the destruction of the settler-colonial project responsible for the worst imperialist cruelties since the British Empire (the immediate ancestor). But you might consider questioning why you seem to only associate the phrase with that one particular person.
Still coming up to speed on the terminology here, but labels aside, I would hope we can all agree on the fact that society should work for the people first. A society that works for corporations and the rich first (I’d argue that most developed nations show advanced stages of this, regardless of capitalist alignment) will decay internally, like a cancer. I think we’ve seen the global decline of society working for their members since the mid 1900’s.
This has resulted in a broad rightward swing in the US, and to a slightly lesser degree abroad. People feel like they’ve been taken advantage of. And they have been, but mostly by the very rich, and it’s getting exponentially worse by the day.
Argue nuance if you feel so inclined. But my point is: the more that we’re divided by these labels is to our detriment. And when I say “we”, I mean “not the ownership class.”
Do you work? Do you draft a paycheck anywhere on earth? Then you’re getting fucked, because those who don’t draft a paycheck to live basically don’t pay anything to partake in society. We pay for them. We truly live in a welfare state, but it’s not the poor that are the recipients but the rich.
Tankie or not. Western or Eastern. We’re all manipulated into serving the will of the powerful, and constantly at odds with one another when our plight is similar. We all don’t want to get fucked. But the more we’re divided, the easier it is to conquer us.
Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
You are talking theory.
Now, in practice invite the MAGA over to your side, and see what happens.
Good luck!
Translation: consent needs to matter. Tankies do not care about your consent. They want to advance the cycle through the destruction phase to get to the other side that is all magical rainbows and fairy dust - just exactly like Russia, China, and North Korea are so well-known for, obviously.
And they will not let anything get in the way of achieving their goals. Not even facts.
Please do not allow yourself to become used like a tool by the oligarchy. Like both the (leftist) tankies and the (rightist) MAGAs have. They share in common a love for authoritarianism - and guess who gets to be at the top there? Hint: it ain’t us!
Tankies want me and everyone that I have ever known or even met to literally die.
Something something bOtH sIdEs SaMe.
Tankies want me and everyone that I have ever known or even met to literally die.
Unless you’re Jeffery Epstein I think the odds of that are low.
Openstars attacking straw communists and positions nobody holds again. The living embodiment of brevity being the soul of wit.
Visit .world before any major Western election and browse by Local (its default) and you will easily see: .world will sell out as many Palestinians as it takes to buy political time in hopes of a blue wave that is definitely going fix everything and bring America™ back to its wholesome big chungus status.
Whereas ML does not want to carry out genocide to buy time for pointless political waffling, go figure.
I really do love the tagging feature for the boost app, all I see is green tankie tabs everywhere when you guys show up.
Oh hey, I remember you. You’re the one who was equating anti-capitalism with being tankie.
https://lemmy.world/comment/21783242
Not beating the toothless lib allegations…
Lol yea I’m the toothless one…the guy who’s probably been tagged by a lot of people here for being staunchly pro2a and advocating for my LGBTQ+ people to get trained and armed…yea
for being staunchly pro2a
Off topic, but there’s a LiberalGunOwners community if you weren’t aware. Not as active as it could, but still
Yea I’m subscribed to it.
Did you vote for Kamala or did you allow Trump to take power?
Will you be voting for Ted Cruz, or will you allow Mecha Hitler to take power?
Your political narcissism is incurable. Enjoy fucking people over for your feels.
Your daily reminder that BlueMAGA liberals don’t consider Palestinians to be people
he said, stepping over the bodies of 500,000 children
The stereotype is that Lemmy.ml wants to play with Stalin’s balls. Lemmy.world wants to play with, I don’t know, Obama’s balls? With Bernie, Bill Clinton, and Reagan watching from the corner?
Something like that, anyway.
HEY ML WHAT POLITICIAN WOULD YOU DESCRIBE US AS SUPPORTING IN VAGUELY HOMOPHOBIC TERMS?
ML: …
ML is run by people who are not only communist, but also communists can do no wrong, capitalists can do no right. Just being communist most of us could live with, but the second is a problem. When someone cannot agree things like genocides that various communist governments are a bad it is really hard to have productive conversations.
communistsTankies.yes. the openly call for murder, theft, and various form of violence against their ‘enemies’.
and if you suggest maybe that’s not such a great idea, they basically tell you that you should die too.
But on the other hand, perhaps I should smile more, even as I am being murdered? (Dials gaslighting up to 11) Yes, it is surely I who am in the wrong here, rather than them.
(/s in case it is not abundantly clear)
Dials gaslighting up to 11
literally every post you make does this
Yeah but they’re totally sarcastic this time!
Authoritarians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
Tankie is a pejorative label generally applied to authoritarian communists, especially those who support or defend acts of repression by such regimes, their allies, or deny the occurrence of the events thereof.
Liberals and communists hate each other, that’s pretty much it
I get more of an impression that people in general do not understand what they believe. There’s a lot of that in the post information era we live; its also an easy excuse to look down my nose at people of course lol.
I think this is pretty insightful. There also is no definitely right answer. Some people may view China as communistic and others may view them as a dictatorship.
Considering they made more billionaires than the US this last year I think the communism thing is a bit of a stretch. At this point they are looking pretty fascist to me. Obviously ML isn’t going to agree to that
But what they will do is ban you for saying that (if you said it in one of their communities)! 😉
It’s not even that. The specific brand of “communist” the ML admins stan is really just redfash, so all other leftists despise them, even as they insist their 100 year old dogma is the only correct philosophy.
It’s also not just that. Dessalines and Nutomic are just basic fucking assholes. Petty and power hungry, and occasionally transphobic, they spend more time banning users and making drama for stupid shit, than they spend writing code, and then have the audacity to guilt people for money.
Dessalines in particular is so fucking cringe, he literally will not post outside of his shitty little fiefdom, because he cannot handle any internet where he doesn’t have his little “I win” ban button.
ML users aren’t really communists though - they are leftist MAGAs who believe in alternative facts, only paying lip service to communist principles but not in a genuine manner. i.e. tankies.
OpenStars spewing bullshit once more, shocker
that’s weird because both you and the right both support genocide and ‘tankies’ are the only ones who don’t
I block ml users on sight so I didn’t even notice
I dunno man. I just signed up as reddit imploded. I wasn’t thinking political ideology. I just needed a refuge. I’m happy, and grateful for my adopted home.
Tbh I blocked all ml posts from my all feed and started blocking ml users on sight for my own mental health
I get in almost zero arguments online now and actually enjoy using this platform
Sorry about the block. It’s not you, it’s your instance.
block me if you haven’t, you seem painful to interact with
Rotten apples have thicker skin.
ML is run by heavily-indoctrinated communists. They’re the type that straight up worship communist leaders.
lemmy.world is kind of run by pussies. They blocked the piracy sublemmy for no real reason other than that.
It doesn’t surprise me they are butting heads. Hopefully the instances that allow interaction with both instances triumph over those that try to restrict access.
They’re the type that straight up worship communist leaders.
I wouldn’t phrase it at that. They’re fans of Russia, China, Iran, and pretty much any other country that’s antagonistic to the US. This regardless of whether said state is communist, especially Russia, which has become fascist under Putin’s rule.
In short, the .ml owners are tankies
If you disagree that .ml are communist and insist that they’re “tankies” instead, it seems to imply that not all communists are “tankies.” However, every single communist I’m aware of is called a tankie. What does a communist who isn’t a tankie look like? Are there examples of such a thing?
Are you saying communism necessarily implies authoritarianism? What about anarchists?
Anarchists are cool, but they’re really only a minority of communists worldwide. Whatever you think “authoritarianism” is (as far as I’m concerned if you believe in having a state at all, then that state will exercise a monopoly on violence and will be repressive) it describes almost every single communist on planet earth. The game of splitting hairs on what does and doesn’t count as a “tankie” achieves nothing but divide a movement that has common cause.
If I’m being forthright, I’ll just go ahead and ask: if anarchists are the only communists, why even have the concept of “tankies” at all? Why not just say you’re pro-anarchist and anti-communist? From my perspective, all that the whole thing of saying that there supposedly are communists who aren’t “tankies” achieves is create two categories:
- Real people who exist in the real world and have actual, flawed political movements
- Imaginary perfect people that only exist in your head
Then because you can find real examples of the first category, you can find the flaws they have, and compare them to the ideal people in the second category. But maybe I’m wrong, maybe there really are a ton of Marxists out there that figured out the secret to having a perfectly consistent anti-authoritarian ideology that is still distinct from anarchism. If you could let me know who they are, that’d be awesome.
We live in a dictatorship of capital, you’re not going to be able to get consent from capitalists to overthrow them.
If you’re intersted in revolutionary change you’re going to be authoritarian to someone. The capitalists not going to be on board for getting their property redistributed.
If you’re not interested in revolution you’re the compatible left
Are you seriously conflating communism with authoritarianism?
It’s like you guys went through the red scare and instead of figuring it was a stupid insane witch hunt without any real foundation, decided that the republican definition of “communism = evil” was actually true, but you wanted in anyway. It’s ridiculous.
It’s such an irony to me that people who call us “tankies” and say that we are somehow caricatures of communists, always make such caricatures out of themselves. Like, instead of engaging with any of FunkyStuff’s very reasonable, calmly stated questions, you go off about how we (“tankies”) just decided to be evil, and calling us ridiculous while behaving in such a ridiculous, blatantly and needlessly antagonistic way yourself. It’s over the top.
Paraphrasing:
FunkyStuff: asks a calm, concise series of questions that are meant to help clarify the issue.
lunnrais: “See?! Look how frothing these evil, ridiculous lunatic tankies are!!”And this after correctly recognizing that the red scare was a terrible witch hunt? But it was people like us, people who believe what we believe, that were the “witches” of that particular persecution. We are simply what most communists in the world look like, we believe what most communists in the world believe, people who have very clear and consistent views. But instead of honestly trying to engage or actually understand why “tankies” believe the things they do, you just smear us with lies and pretend that the position of Marxist-Leninist communists is just some bananas, made-up-on-the-fly, contrarian position, rather than one with deep foundations that have been developed over decades of intense thought and practice including by people fighting in the trenches for their own and others liberation. To you, were the Black Panthers “tankies”? Do you know about their mutual support of and with North Korea, or did they just decide to be “evil” to pwn the libs? Was Che Guevara a “tankie”? Is Michael Parenti? Were they all just ridiculous contrarians who liked the picture that reactionaries (“republicans”) painted of them?
I remain at the same place, yet to understand how one can be a communist and not authoritarian. And I feel like you’re failing to interrogate whether your concept of authoritarianism is being used with any amount of consistency or if it’s just a club you wield against people who have positions you disagree with for other reasons.
edit: removing duplicate comment.
ML is run by heavily-indoctrinated communists. They’re the type that straight up worship communist leaders.
It’s run by Russia bots who are pumping out Kremlin talking points whilst deleting anyone who is critical.
I got deleted for pointing out Putin runs a mafia state.
Shit even the Russian communist don’t like Putin.
I got deleted for pointing out Putin runs a mafia state.
From checking the modlog you got a comment removed and a temp ban for insulting someone
Is it an insult against Putin to declare he is running a mafia state?
94·1 month agoWhere do you dumb fucks get this shit from?
Keep on making shit up you dumb ass.
Modlog strikes again.
no, it was calling another poster a dumbass, and a dumb fuck
Where do you dumb fucks get this shit from?) Thirdly Russia had to invade and hold phony referendums in order to somehow prove eastern Ukraine didn’t want to become part of Europe. Keep on making shit up you dumb ass.
insults people
gets moderated
“I AM A FREE SPEECH WARRIOR FIGHTING PUTIN”
I wonder how much the “Russian running ML” is getting paid to shape the opinions of all 25 people on this platform. Must be making bank
Great to see straight up McCarthyism come back into fashion. Why consider other views when you can just declare anyone who disagrees with you to be a non-human foreigner.
It’s absolutely absurd that westerners consider people with wildly heterodox views to be the “indoctrinated” ones.
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.ml users engage in a lot of violent fantasizing of mass murder and state sponsored violence until that everyone believes what they believe. basically everyone who isn’t a communist or anarchist, should die. and once everyone who isn’t a communist/anarchist is dead, the world will be a perfect utopia with no suffering. that’s their view.
.world users aren’t screaming about murdering people.
This post is a good example of said slander/infighting, as MLs are inherently not dogmatic, and having consistent values is painted as being homogenous.
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What’s with all the new users in the past week or two?
Big push to move off of American sites in response to Trump. So lots of Europeans and what not are joining here.
It’s literally called Lemmy.MarxistLeninist get your head out of Stalin’s arsehole.
What does that have to do with being dogmatic?
Omg you guys believe that?? The .ml is from Mali 😂 it’s because Mali domains were free for the longest time.
lol, dunning meets kruger.
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I signed up for the developer’s instance because fuck reddit, and I do dev work.
Server choice had nothing to do with any political shit. I barely knew what federation was at the time. Lemmy immediately proved there are as many bandwagoning idiots as reddit here.
I have nothing to say about world though, I don’t use the platform that much.
I originally did this and ended up having to remake my account on .world. I just couldn’t stand the negativity and constant fighting on .ml. I was able to find a non-ml alternative to every community I was subscribed to. YMMV but it was completely worth it for me
I’m not hopping instances, I will just leave. Social media is worth very little to me. Abandoning it would mean nothing to me.
The fediverse isn’t going to be one all-encompassing thing like reddit. As time goes on, there will be different “sections” of the fediverse to accommodate people with different interests.
Lemmy.world, being run by pussies, thinks that because they’re the largest instance right now that they get to dictate the direction the fediverse goes in. As more people wake up to their censorship, more instances will sprout up to resist it.
It’s great that nobody is beholden to the decisions of either instance’s admins. That’s the beauty of the fediverse.
Obviously this is my opinion based off observations I’ve made, and not every user or sub in each instance falls under this generalization.
Both instances have a lot of users, and they have ideological differences, so they inevitably butt heads. Depending on who you ask, ML mainly has socialists, communists, or tankies. World seems to be more centrist leaning to the left, but it seems to be accepting of a more varied range of political opinions. Considering a lot of Lemmy users came from Reddit, I think a comparison can be drawn. My opinion is that World users have an ideology similar to most of Reddit and seem more likely to have left Reddit because they took issue with specific Reddit admin policies. On the other hand, ML users would have had an ideology that was more fringe for Reddit, and while they may have had issues with Reddit admins as well, they seem more likely to have left Reddit because their views were not well accepted among Reddit’s general population.
Too add I think .ML and especially hexbear are the fringe like chapotraphouse was on reddit. Which I discovered through the dollop podcast and while I love that podcast chapotraphouse was a different beast
.world is full of apologists and denialists for western imperialism
.ml is full of tankies who think that ALL Americans are fascists (even those of us currently being terrorized by fascists).
FSM help you if you ever try to inject sanity into one of their “debates”
☝️
Almost no one is apologizing for what the west does. We just can’t see any difference between china and the west when it comes to imperialism. Tibet comes to mind and the fact they want to pick the next dali lama. Like its their imperialists right. They have done the same things that the west has done and done them in this century. Tankies just insist on their lies knowing what they say isn’t true.
Almost no one is apologizing for what the west does.
Ukraine.
As in supporting Ukraine or supporting Russia? Because those are the two sides and only 1 is responsible for the war and trying to take land by military force. Doesn’t get much more imperialist than that.
Can be wrong about it, but a noticeable percentage of Lemmy.ml comunities and users are totally normal. The real issue is in a few admins and mods that flood the instance with delusional pro-Russian propaganda, love to USSR, Lenin and etc. And strictly removing anyone who is against it. Thus leaving on instance only people that support this propaganda and the ones who don’t protest against it. This creates a concentrated userbase with ideology and mindset unacceptable for a huge part of Lemmy.world userbase.
So, in conclusion, battle between Lemmy.ml and Lemmy.world is mostly because of politics and ideologies.
There’s another side to this. I’m originally from Hexbear and only started checking out what the experience of someone on an instance that isn’t massively defederated looks like. Lemmy.ml’s meme comms are full of tankie ragebait, but then there’s multiple .world communities that are the same, but they’re liberal ragebait. The difference is that .world’s ideology is hegemonic while .ml’s is fringe. But to someone who isn’t a liberal, looking at a Lemmy front page when .world is on that front page also has a lot of propagandistic content with little news or entertainment value; you probably just don’t realize it.
Documentation of the admins authoritarianism and censorship
Some highlights from the link:
“If you don’t support Russia then you just don’t understand geopolitics” ~dessalines, main .ml admin, head dev https://lemmy.world/post/27352415
“See! nobody died IN Tiananmen Square, just AROUND it, so it doesn’t count!!” ~ Davel, .ml admin https://lemmy.world/post/30673342
“NK is actually good and anything counter to that is Western propaganda!” ~dessalines, main .ml admin, head dev https://lemmy.world/post/31595035
Showing support for Ukraine on .ml is worthy of a site ban - dessalines, main .ml admin, head dev https://lemmy.world/post/32775563
Nutomics continued transphobia https://lemmy.world/post/29222558
Just my own personal experience but by far most of the worst experiences I have on here come from .world users. Though to be fair bunch of them did move to piefed.
The Lemmy devs run .ml, and were/are part of a community revolving around the contrarian idea that anti-Western dictatorships are actually the good guys and all working together (somehow, despite visibly hating each other a lot of the time).
The basic idea was always going to push some users to other instances, and then the adherents acting like conspiracy theorists often do pushed away a lot more. Some of the most aggressive instances are outright blocked by .world, IIRC.
anti-Western dictatorships are actually the good guys and all working together (somehow, despite visibly hating each other a lot of the time).
I’m from Hexbear which is generally more extreme than .ml and this idea seems absurd to me. Who is saying that e.g. Russia is a close ally of Ansarallah?
