Me too Bernie, me too.
The end of the day I won’t blame the young people, though. I will blame the red hat fascists who want to install an orange dictator.
Edit: Young people get a pass because at least they are passionate about something. I’m over here, dead inside, praying to a computer that things don’t get any worse then they already are.
I blame First Past The Post voting, for keeping the people handcuffed to two legacy political parties.
Perhaps Republicans would vote less clowns into office, but they are chained to the Republican party.
Same is true for the Democrats. We don’t need to be stuck with these two parties. There can be something else.
Right. I wish people were upset about not having ranked choice as they were the genocide in Gaza. If we changed the way we voted voting for the lesser evil wouldn’t be a thing.
I blame my dumb ass for voting for Nader in 2000. Don’t be like me. Learn from the mistakes of others!
The people who are to blame are the Republicans. That is where you need to direct your anger.
I’m not angry. I regret voting third-party in an election that barely elected Bush, a year before 9/11, that he used to justify a two front war resulting in nearly one million deaths. I’m encouraging others to learn from my mistake.
Sure but we keep losing sight of what is truly pushing us over the edge
Wanting a three party system but the government won’t comply?
I was going with a single party trying to install an autocrat.
Biden should step down as the nominee and ask Bernie to run.
Bernie has my vote! Biden never will.
Burn it all down woohoo /s
They don’t understand that Trump is just as pro-Israel as Biden, if not even more so considering he moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem.
That’s the great part about our democracy: You don’t get to vote for someone who isn’t pro-Israel. Because freedom.
*electoral system
Because of FPTP and the Winner Take All Electoral College, there is a lot of political pressure to only have 2 parties. In a better system (proportional, ranked choice, etc) it wouldn’t break with more than two parties. In fact just reforming the electoral college to be proportional would likely allow 3 parties to exist.
If you look at history the last time there was a viable 3rd party it possibly initiated the civil war by allowing an anti slavery viewpoint to exist (which is good, but if we’d had a better voting system it would have happened earlier and reduced a lot of suffering)
And if a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his ass when he hopped.
We have FPTP, and we’ll have it until I’m cold and dead in the ground.
even republican-ass alaska passed RCV.
alaska also has some kind of UBI because of their oil stuff, I’m not sure they slot as easily into political partisanship as most other states
Burlington VT also switched off FPTP… and then we fucking back slid because “it’s too confusing!”
I think it’s highly unlikely we get off FPTP at a national level.
And it failed in blue as fuck Massachusetts
Yay, Alaska and Maine did it. Very good. Wake me when it’s a state that has more people than moose.
Electoral system…
Just as I have to watch half the electorate embrace the most asinine BS possible to justify selfishness and hate… it’s not that far out to see people screaming “genocide joe!” at everyone they see, as they turn off everyone and defeat themselves at every chance.
The cool part is focusing all your effort into a camp-out such that your main message is synonymous with homelessness and you self defeat your own goals… all while you call the liberal element genocidal and basically show the world your biggest effort is to sit still while cutting off the liberal nose to spite your face.
Purely hypothetical question for you: If you had a choice between supporting Israel or Biden winning the 2024 election which would you choose?
Ok purely hypothetical right back for you…
Do your ideals exist outside of pure hypotheticals? Can you cite them?
If you had a real choice… say in the upcoming election…
Who would you choose?
Well shit, if you had a purely hypothetical choice, what would you choose?
I’m voting 3rd party so according to liberal and moderate logic that probably means I’m supporting Israel.
The important part is that the equation means more than you.
Vote how you mean, and ignore how your vote’s mean.
Good for you.
So what’s your choice? Supporting Israel or Biden winning the 2024 election?
Can you imagine how dumb it would be to vote for someone who isn’t though?
The only reason I think Trump isn’t pro-Palestine (Russian ally through Iran) is because the war is a good distraction from Ukraine
You have to be pro-Israel as the US but that doesn’t mean you can’t be pro-Palestinian
Being pro-Israel and being pro-Palestine are mutually exclusive positions since Israel is genociding Palestine.
That’s like saying you can be pro Nazi and pro jew.
I mostly agree in fact, however in definition it isn’t true. Israel is a nation that could exist in many other forms. It doesn’t have to do what it’s doing. It’s not the same as “pro-Nazi” because Nazism is an ideology, not a nation. A nation doesn’t have any set ideals, only a set of people and borders it represents.
You can be anti-Nazi and pro-Germany because Nazis didn’t define Germany. They were Nazis at one point in time but are now represented by totally different ideals.
Socially Jew, economically Nazi?
No it would be like Finland allying with Germany because they had to be against Russia
But I didn’t say pro-Palestine, I said pro-Palestinian which you clearly know the difference since you had to change it to make your point
You just proved my point. The Finland/Germany/Russia comparison only fits with ‘Palestine’.
The Nazi/Jews comparison is accurate with ‘Palestinian’.
Would it be easier if I said “Finnish” instead of Finland?
If the US backs Palestine do you honestly believe they will turn against all their allies to aid American security of the region and be Israel 2.0?
That is irrelevant to the conversation.
The state of Israel is currently genociding Palestinians. You can’t support the state of Israel and support the Palestinian people at the same time. Full stop.
Yeah Donald “Muslim ban” and “finish the job” Trump is not pro-Palestine only for reasons of distraction.
Donald “carpet bomb the middle east” trump
Might possibly be pandering to his base
Palestine (Russian ally through Iran)
Russia isn’t in military allience with Iran. Both Russia and Iran are neighbors sanctioned by the US, forcing them into a business partnership by exclusion.
And Iran isn’t allied with Gaza Palestinians. You’re confusing them with the Yemeni Houthis and West Bank Hezbollah. What you have is Israelis engaging in terrorist acts against both states, then conflating retaliation with cooperation.
https://apnews.com/general-news-08f1ea9e849a49c5a741bf0e1582b616
Also Israel is a state not a terrorist organization, they are participating in war crimes
Also Israel is a state not a terrorist organization
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_state-sponsored_terrorism
An early example of Israeli state-sponsored was the 1954 Lavon Affair, a botched bomb plot in Egypt that led to the resignation of the Israeli defense minister at the time. In the 1970s and 1980s, Israel was also a major supplier of arms to dictatorial regimes in South America, Sub-Saharan Africa, and Asia. In the 21st-century, it has been accused of sponsoring and supporting several terrorist groups as part of its proxy conflict with Iran.
Israel is a state
Response:you’re right but here’s a list of organizations that are
Congratulations, just seems like wasted effort
https://al-shabaka.org/briefs/the-systematic-torture-of-palestinians-in-israeli-detention/
The recent case of Samer Arbeed highlighted once again the systematic use of torture against Palestinian detainees in Israeli prisons. Israeli soldiers arrested Arbeed at his home in Ramallah on September 25, 2019. They beat him severely before taking him to Al Moscobiyye detention center in Jerusalem for interrogation. Two days later, according to his lawyer, he was hospitalized as a result of severe torture, and lay in critical condition for several weeks. A judicial body had authorized the Israeli Secret Service, the Shin Bet, to use “exceptional methods” to extract information in this case without going through the courts. This led Amnesty International to condemn what happened to Arbeed as “legally-sanctioned torture.“
You have to be pro-Israel as the US but that doesn’t mean you can’t be pro-Palestinian
Like I said: Freedom. 🇺🇸🦅🍔
Congress is bipartisan pro-Israel. This isn’t even a presidential issue.
Biden just happens to be the guy doing the pro-Israel stuff at the moment, so he’s eating the lions share of the public ire.
“You have to support the Pro-Israel guy because the other guy is pro-Israel and both party leaders are pro-Israel and the cops are trained by Israelis and Israeli businesses have strong ties with the MIC and Big Finance needs Israel to control trade through the Suez and you’re outnumbered and outgunned so quit fighting, just vote for Joe Biden” just isn’t a winning message among progressive voters this year.
Maybe try it again in 2026.
My company buys a specific board from an Israeli company.
We have been working on an in house alternative for a few years now. Now we’re scared to actually perform the switch because of the anti-boycott laws
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Nut up and do it. I’m proud of you.
The thing is: Biden is pro-Israel but also pro-Palestinians. He’s providing aid to Gazans and pressuring Israel to minimize civilian casualties. It’s not great, or even good, I agree - but it’s a whole lot better than Trump who would be pro-Israel and anti-Palestinians. You’d see humanitarian aid end and the US support total war instead of the (slightly) restrained version we’re seeing now.
Biden is pro-Israel but also pro-Palestinians.
Right now it seems like the Biden Administration is trying to pressure Israel not to launch a military assault on Rafah and to allow in more humanitarian aid. At the same time, it has shown an unwillingness to take strong steps to punish Israel or to restrict the flow of aid or weapons to Israel if the Israelis disregard that pressure. How do you understand the strategy now?
I’d call the Biden Administration’s approach “passive-aggressive.” They are angry at Netanyahu, and were even before this. He’s presiding over the most extreme government in the history of the state of Israel. That government and the preceding dozen years of Netanyahu’s tenure are undermining the two fundamental drivers of the U.S.-Israeli relationship, which are shared values and common interests. So, it’s passive-aggressive in the sense that, six months into the war, the Administration has still been unwilling—unable—to impose a single cost or consequence that you and I, as normal human beings, would describe as real pressure.
Unable or unwilling?
Both, but I’ll get to that in a second. There were three levers the Administration could’ve pulled. They’re still available. No. 1 is to end U.S. military assistance. There’s no indication the Administration’s anywhere close to that. It just approved a shipment of two-thousand-pound bombs, and twenty F-35s. No. 2, change the U.S. voting posture at the U.N., either by introducing its own Security Council resolution, or by voting for someone else’s, that is very critical of Israel. It has not done that. No. 3, abandon the whole notion of negotiating the hostage release and simply join the chorus of those in the international community who basically say, “You need to pressure Israel to cease this military campaign.”
And I think it has not done these things
Biden is pro-Getting Relected. And he recognizes that his party is increasingly pro-Palestinian. However, his current policy appears to be a CYA strategy, intended to create the illusion of neutrality while negotiating a path that allows Israel to continue its extermination of Arab people across the region.
As this exterminationist Israeli agenda becomes more undeniable, the job of appearing neutral grows more difficult. And Biden’s decision to (tacitly) back Israel at all costs means risking friendly relations with Turkyie, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. However, he’s staying the course, precisely because he’s banking on a mass expulsion and genocide of Palestinians today will strengthen Israel’s regional position in the future.
It’s especially telling that one of Biden’s justification’s for his support of Israel is a promise to his dying father.
Is that how politicians in a Democracy are supposed to make decisions?
If someone gives a sandwich to me and a gun to a person actively trying to murder me, they are not “pro-me”
Being pro-Palestinian would require demanding Israel stop murdering them.
An alternative explanation is that what he says and what he de facto does are two entirelly different things.
Look at what is done, not what is said.
The Nazis also proclaimed to be helping the Jews as they were putting them into Ghettos and then industrially murdering them in the Concentration Camps.
Yeah even to expand on that - they don’t understand that everything they don’t like about Biden, they’ll like about Trump less. I mean I have real serious gripes about Biden but it is insultingly stupid to pretend that Trump would be any kind of a solution to those problems.
It seems that many of them know that Trump is worse, but think that sticking to ideals and voting for a non-viable candidate (or not voting at all) is somehow the best course of action. Republicans count on people like that to win. Fascists don’t give a fuck how they get into power, as long as they do.
They don’t just count on it. They actively invade spaces and spread that idea. I’m almost certain the first people saying that about Biden/Israel were right wing trolls, and people on the left actually took the bait and started spreading it themselves.
I get the sentiment, because I hate our two choices, too, but until first past the post system is changed, the lesser of two evils will always be the most practical choice.
They also seem to fervently believe:
- Stop participating in 2 party system
- ???
- Get ranked choice system
Any time you ask for details on step 2, you get an unhinged rant with zero plausibility.
My best guess, if they actually believe there’s a path to a ranked choice system and aren’t just being doomers, is that they think a bloody rebellion will do the trick.
Yeah, there’s a lot of tankies that pretend they are progressives so they don’t get laughed at outright. They’ll take their masks off 10-20 comments down the thread where few people actually see.
I tend to find that the people who believe in participating in the 2 party system also do these same steps. Why would either party do away with FPTP? Neither one has any incentive to do it. At least third parties often have it listed as part of their platform and have incentive to do it because they can’t easily get elected within the current system.
The way it will happen is grassroots local compaigns. Those don’t have as much need for FPTP and are more likely to be politicians who care. Eventually you build up enough to change things locally, then change state laws. That might be enough there, but it can potentially be pushed further and go for a national campaign once you have enough momentum.
It won’t change by the president or congress right off the bat. That’s not how this sort of thing happens. I wish it were. It’d be a lot faster and simpler, but it just won’t work.
Your part 3 and part 1 are the same.
This is the ??? part you left out:
- Start RCV campaign
- Recruit people
- Collect signatures, pressure local governments, get initiative on the ballot
- Campaign, campaign, campaign
- Vote
- Hope that the public doesn’t let the leopards eat their face because the ruling class is very wealthy and will campaign against you HARD
- If you lose, try again, and keep trying
You don’t just stop voting because FPTP is rigged and wildly corrupt. You fight with every weapon at your disposal, even the ones rigged against you.
This is how Maine, Alaska, and Hawaii did it. This is how everyone else needs to do it.
What exactly is your plan for changing first past the post?
You could make the case that if the democrats actually supported that, it’s worth holding your nose and voting for them in order to open up other options in the future. But they don’t support it, because they benefit from it. So basically you’re asking the left to keep voting for the democrats unconditionally forever while they don’t address any of our concerns and refuse to make any sort of reforms that might allow us to have a voice in the future. How is that a viable path to accomplishing anything?
The plan is to keep voting in every primary for the most progressive candidates and then voting for the least bad people in elections while pushing for reform. However hard it is to enact change while Democrats are in power, it will be impossible while Republicans are.
I’ll pose the same question to you: how is not voting for the least bad viable candidates, thus guaranteeing the worst candidates get into power, a viable path to accomplishing anything?
Did you not notice what the DNC did to Sanders in the last Democrat primary???!
It’s not just a case of “a few bad apples”.
The plan is to keep voting in every primary for the most progressive candidates
But what I’m being told over and over is if Biden cuts off support for Israel he’ll lose the election. Which means moderates and liberals won’t vote for a progressive candidate who makes it through the primaries leading to whatever nutjob is running on the other side.
So our reward for being pragmatic and holding our nose will be the same as voting 3rd party today.
It’s just as impossible to enact reform through the Democratic party. Especially when you adopt the approach of “vote blue no matter who.” The Democratic parties interests in terms of voting reform are directly contrary to the interests of voters, and will never allow it happen unless they have no other choice. If they know they can count on your support no matter, then you have forfeited whatever negotiating power you’ve managed to accrue.
To the extent that electoralism is worth engaging with, strategic voting as part of a bloc is the only way to make it worthwhile. The goal should be to build an organization or movement that can say, if you refuse to give into our demands, we will not vote for you and you will lose. In the short term, it might mean losing an election, but if you can demonstrate that power, then in the future you’ll be able to make a credible threat of withholding votes to get what you want, and if they cooperate you won’t have to follow through. If that organization is able to coordinate other actions like strikes, then all the better.
It’s like this: two countries are facing a powerful invader, and the only way to fend them off is through an alliance. But country A says, “I know you need us to survive, so we demand 99% of your territory in exchange for an alliance.” If country B follows the ideology of “lesser evilism,” they’ll agree to that, because 1% is better than 0%. But how did that happen, when country A needs the alliance just as much? Because lesser evilism is stupid and irrational. At some point you have to set a red line and say, this is the absolute minimum that I’ll accept, and I’ll reject anything less even if it means the deal falling through and me facing a worse outcome. And “no genocide” is decidedly inside of that line.
Lemmy is absolutely infested with right wing trolls pretending to be leftists. And the worst part is that .ml protects them because they are completely blinded to this subversion by their pathological instinct to relitigate the cold war.
It’s incredibly obvious to everyone who understands why assuming the moniker of a Haitian slave turned actual freedom fighter is actually incredibly offensive to those dealing with real oppression, both modern and historical.
Everybody who disagrees with you is a right wing troll?
It is pathetic how you are falling into the same line of thinking like the Trumpists. Building the Dems into a cult is not going to solve any of the problems. Threatening their power basis by voting based on principles does. Because then they have to actually listen to their potential voters. The majority of Americans is against continuing to support the Genocide committed by Israel. Biden would gain politically by turning the tides. But he would rather help Trump into power, than to stop a fucking Genocide.
Stop blaming the people who are voting and start holding the people in power accountable for their actions. That is the entire point of threatening not to vote fore the Dems.
Republicans count on people like that to win.
Republicans have lost more than one Senate seat because they ran zealous nutbag losers in safe elections and pissed off moderates.
I’m not sure why Democrats get to run pro-war Zionists and Blue Lives fascists, free from the fear that they’ll suffer the same fate.
Because even though they would prefer the fascists don’t get into power, the wealthy Democrat politicians know they won’t be too adversely affected by it.
Well that just begs the same question about the moderates and liberals who keep them in power. Do they think this is a winning strategy?
Because unfortunately the pro-Israel, pro- cop Democratic candidates are much closer to the average voter than the nutbag religious extremists are.
The majority of Americans are against the continued support for the Genocide. Sanders speaks about that in the speech.
If that’s true, why do more Republicans hold office at the national, state, and local levels?
Gerrymandering, structural advantages, etc. the same as it’s always been.
This sounds like the strategy Republicans are banking on to win.
This is an uncomfortable truth that people don’t want to face
You will understand this when you understand why most people who have more than 20s of geopolitical memory associate people who unironically rant about evil Zionists with neo-nazis.
You realize this critique cuts both ways right? Fox news and CNN are completely aligned in their criticisms of the protestors.
that sticking to ideals and voting for a non-viable candidate (or not voting at all) is somehow the best course of action.
Taking the “moral high” ground even though it would have a bad result. Sounds like what the DEMs do all the time.
“I learned it from you” -young people probably.
And the Dems get criticized for taking the moral high ground at the expense of being practical, too.
Yeah but the problem is we live in at least a pro-fascist state if not a fascist state already. So convincing people who realize this to vote for the guy who has been voting for fascist policies for decades (as well as some progressive ones, for those who will say I’m ignoring the “good” he’s done) and is actively supporting genocide not just in policy but in his statements and apparently beliefs is going to be pretty tough. It’s not just about voting “not Trump” anymore, people also want to vote “not Biden”.
If you’re going to call Biden a fascist, the word really does mean “anything I don’t like”.
Where did I call Biden a fascist?
Show a little fucking courage when you call someone a name, own it coward.
Okay, he’s a fascist. As if that needed to be pointed out.
If someone is being accused of voting for fascist policies, it’s reasonable to assume they are being accused of being a fascist.
While I would call Biden a fascist (and I do), your logic doesn’t follow. Would I call every Biden voter a fascist? No. Fascist apologist or enabler, maybe.
And with that, the world has reached a new record for equivocation
They know Donald will destabilize the country and accelerate a collapse. They think that will make room for China to expand.
If their goal is to destroy the US then helping Trump makes sense, at least.
The hypocrisy comes when millions of vulnerable people they pretend to care about actually suffer as a direct result of their nihilism. Acceptable costs, right?
It really is shocking that more people on the “Lemmy left” don’t see this. The US is one of the most tolerant places in the world for a bunch of otherwise marginalized groups. Pretending that it is irredeemable and must be destroyed because of your cold war grudge is destroying one of their biggest safe spaces and condemning them to suffer.
Hypothetically if you had to chose between supporting Israel or Biden winning in 2024 which would you choose?
Why do you think my comment has anything to do with Israel?
I’m going to give you a serious answer even though it’s obvious you know nothing about us and don’t care to learn.
Accellerationism is stupid and reactionary, and from my perspective Biden seems to be doing a fine job of doing that as it is. Trump is a symptom produced from the policies Biden has spent his entire career enacting. There will be plenty more candidates like Trump, because the material conditions that produced him still exist, and Biden is perpetuating and worsening those conditions.
The US is in decline and that’s not going to change regardless of who wins this election. What I’d most prefer is to refocus our efforts domestically in order to address some of the many different crises that the country is experiencing. If we did this, it’s likely that China would eventually eclipse the US due to it’s manufacturing capacity, but the lives of everyday people would be improved and the country would become more stable and healthy. Whether the decline could be reversed, I don’t know, but it would at least be a gradual, peaceful decline.
But that’s never going to happen, even a little bit. Instead, our leaders are intent on getting involved in conflicts all over the world while ignoring all the problems at home and allowing things to get worse and worse. The geopolitical interests of the US government are completely disconnected from the interests of the American people.
The US doesn’t need to collapse for China to grow. China’s strategy for many years has been a policy of peaceful coexistence with capitalist states while it focuses on economic development. And that strategy is proving successful. The only concern is what the US is going to do once it becomes eclipsed as global hegemon, and the concerning thing is that while China manufactures more than the next 10 countries combined, the US spends more on the military than the next 10 countries combined. The possibility that the US could start WWIII in an attempt to maintain hegemony by pressing the area where it has an advantage is deeply concerning.
Even if you believe, as you probably do, that Xi Jinping is paying me to run around some niche corner of the internet pretending to be Phoenix Wright - why would China actually want to destabilize the US? They’re already winning the peace.
Hm, read a dissertation from a Uighur genocide fan who communicates in childish video game cartoons, or focus on people who aren’t delusional? Tough choice for me but I’ll have to go with the latter.
Well, no one can say I didn’t try. If that’s the kind of engagement you want,
ahem
In a court of law, evidenceis the only thing that matters! Your baseless accusations are… completely meaningless!What a goofy little clown. You have no substantial thoughts and have to do this instead.
Thanks for the laughs and nostalgia. Loved that game.
Or they understand that all this apolgetics for the Dems being the lesser of two evils just results in them being the same evil, just four years later. The Dems are still running internment camps at the border. They are still building Trumps wall.
By never threatening them with actual consequences to their power, you give them a blanket check to fuck everyone over for their rich donors. And that is exactly what they did and continue to do.
No they are not the same evil, and it insults the intelligence to pretend otherwise. And threatening the Dems with consequences by giving power to people who are even worse on those issues than them? That does the opposite of what you’re hoping - it encourages that kind of behaviour.
We got to where we are because the right has pulled the window further and further, step by step, for years - and we have to do the same. The system doesn’t just change overnight.
You have to understand that a win for Trump this year is a total win for the far right and a total loss for the left. Anyone pretending otherwise is hopelessly misguided or intentionally stumping for the fascists.
We got to where we are because the right has pulled the window further and further, step by step, for years - and we have to do the same. The system doesn’t just change overnight.
Because the Dems were happy to shift the window with them instead of pulling on the other side. Telling them “Either you pull it back now, or there is no reason to vote for you.” Is the only way they will be motivated to not help the Reps pushing further to the right.
Sure just like in 2016 after we withheld our votes from HIllary and let the far right get all their wishes. The Dems realized how wrong they were and came pandering to leftists.
But surely it’ll work this time, at least we don’t have that many liberal justices left to lose on SCOTUS.
Because you accepted Hillary 2.0 with Biden. The DNC is laughing their asses off, as they keep shoving a “establishment” aka far right imperialist neo-liberal economics candidate down your throat. And now they are gas lighting you, to blame you for them only giving your candidates that are against your interests and against human rights and international law.
The GOP openly courts antisemites while also supporting Israel. They make sure to have all the awful bases covered.
They need all the Jews to return to Israel and the temple to be rebuilt so Jesus can come back. Of course, that does mean expelling all Jews from every other country Jews are in, but they leave that part out.
Zionism fits neatly into the view that every country should be ethically homogenous.
It’s inherently right wing
And yet so is hating Jews. Ordinarily a quandary, but the GOP lives for hypocrisy.
Hating Jews “over here”.
“Over there” is fine, which is why American Racism dovetails so neatly with Zionism: both desire the same, just from different directions.
PS: I was going to say “Fascism” instead of “American Racism”, but frankly if there is one thing this whole situation has made clear is that Liberals are also all about different treatment depending on a person’s etnicity - as made so puignantly clear in their reaction to recent university demonstrations as well as by the very different language used in the Liberal Press when it comes to Palestinians and Israelis - so it’s really just both variants of Racism in the US.
Everything they do makes sense to them… Which should tell you everything you need to know about them.
Zionism has big “go back to where you came from” vibes
Antisemiticites
I knew that sounded wrong and reading your word brought the correct one to mind. Fixed!
Antisemenites Volume 7, Vivid Entertainment.
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Removed by mod
Be careful what you wish for.
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I fucking hate, and from the bottom of my heart, how Biden is funding the genocide in Palestine, but I’m still going to vote for him this time, because we just can’t have a person like Trump in the white house, period. I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time. I’d never let my 10 year old lead a country, yet we let Trump do it for four fucking years. I, too, am sick of this “the lesser of two evils” bullshit, but this time I’m giving it a pass because of Trump. We already have a crumbling country and can’t afford another four years of this dude.
I don’t understand why people point out that Biden is “funding the genocide in Palestine” and completely ignore and fail to mention that trump would do the exact same thing.
He has all but said he would cut Israel loose to do whatever they needed to finish the job.
The use of Israeli aggression is not a point of comparison when viewing the differences between trump and Biden.
Edit: and I apologize for the late edit - FWIW Biden has become critical of Israeli actions and offered some aid to Palestinians (Yeah, I absolutely agree it isn’t enough) while trump would prefer to wash his hands of the whole Palestine thing. That is a notable difference.
No one denies that trump will fund it. That’s not the point, but I get what you mean.
It isn’t the potential for denial that initiated my reply, it’s the fact that people declare US support of Israel is a strike against Biden when comparing Biden to trump as a reason to consider not voting for Biden. This is a false comparison and it is the point I am making.
No one denies that trump will fund it
And? The problem is that these people won’t really address the fact that Trump would be worse than Biden
I’ve argued with multiple people on here who said Trump would be better for Palestinians than Biden is.
Lmfao. Nah, that’s too much credit. Way too much.
I don’t understand why people point out that Biden is “funding the genocide in Palestine” and completely ignore and fail to mention that trump would do the exact same thing.
And hence why I won’t vote for Trump either. It’s not that hard to understand.
I think Joe Biden is maybe the best president of my lifetime, and I’m going to vote for him with my head held high even though I live in a red state where it doesn’t matter at all. I wish things were simpler in the Levant, but I appreciate that Joe Biden is between a rock and a hard place with Israel. It’s not like he can just take Bibi out. He’s not Boeing. That said, even if I laid the entire genocide at Biden’s feet (which, while he’s not blameless, is absolutely not appropriate), he would still be head and shoulders an improvement over Donald Trump.
For that matter, I’d absolutely let my 12 year old run this country before I’d let Trump have a second term. My kid is brilliant, and more importantly, unlike Trump he listens to advice, can take no for an answer, and gives a shit about having a functional democracy four years from now.
A second Trump term is an existential threat to the nation. Hold your nose, hold your neighbor’s nose if you have to, but every able-bodied patriot owes it to their descendants and their patriotic ancestors to prevent a second Trump term.
Biden went around congress to ship weapons to Israel. Painting him as helpless here is pure misinformation.
It’s not like he can just take Bibi out. He’s not Boeing.
Well, he is the President of the United States. We may have to pretend Bibi is a socialist though.
Your ten-year-old is more mature than Trump.
Not a joke.
Knowing my son? He absolutely is way more mature than Trump.
I’m 100% sure trump would have taken charge over there because it was taking too long.
Genocide? Hold my beer.
I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time.
Electoral College, should not exist.
Biden is not funding Israel. The United States government is. Even if he wanted to stop the aid (he doesn’t), he doesn’t have the power to just ignore laws passed by Congress. Trump did that with Ukraine and got impeached for it.
“I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time”
Easy. He was propped up by democrats, namely Hillary Clinton.
If we reach a point 40 years from now when your choice is between a dem supporting 5 genocides and a republican supporting 10 genocides, are you still going to be militantly democrat and lash out at leftists who are sick of the whole thing?
woohoo. 10 genocides but such a moral victory.
In this hypothetical we wouldn’t have the option to vote 40 years from now because dim bulbs allowed an insurrectionist to be elected. Donald will also accelerate climate fuckery so anyway we’ll be too busy squabbling over what meager food comes out of the remaining arable regions.
Purely hypothetical question for you: Would you rather continue supporting Israel or see Biden win the 2024 election?
Enjoy the extra genocide Donald “Muslim ban” Trump brings to the conflict and starts up locally. You guys really want him to “finish the job,” huh?
That’s pretty repugnant IMO, but people like you are privileged enough to watch from afar as others lose their rights and their lives.
By not answering the question and participating in the process of this hypothetical choice the outcome is Israel is supported and Joe Biden loses the 2024 election.
Nope. I’ve stated this in multiple posts on other platforms, this is my last time going with this “lesser of two evils” bullshit. Because at some point, we HAVE to believe that it is intentional. I mean, what happened to “fool me once…”?
You think you will still be able to vote in 40 years if Donald “dictator for a day” Trump gets elected this time?
Oh my sweet summer child. Your vote will be as meaningful as the ones in Russia.
So if a Trump presidency means the end of democracy in America, why hasn’t Trump been outlawed?
Why is Biden focusing on banning TikTok instead of truth social? Why weren’t the courts getting stacked 2 years ago? Why are the democrats’ obsession with “precedent” and “civility” taking more primacy than outlawing a candidate who, by their own admission, would mean the end of democracy?
By propping up Trump, the democrats have effortlessly oriented you such that you now give blind support to a genocidal regime. You’ve given the democrats a blank check. The democrats would rather lose to Trump and usher in fascism than shift left in the slightest way (halting genocide).
Also, epic reddit catchphrase my good sir. I tip my hat you, for you are a gentleman and a scholar.
When I was young my parents introduced me to some old school Communists; folks who’d fought in the Spanish Civil War and been blacklisted in the 1950s.
One of the stories they told was that back in 1968 the oldtimers were warning people to vote for Hubert Humphrey because they knew how bad Nixon would be, Too many young folks then thought ‘both sides are the same.’
I don’t know much about him, but reading that he lost the young people vote for supporting the Vietnam War is such a good parallel for today.
Damn, it sounds like he shouldn’t have supported that war. If only people had warned him about it.
Here’s a cool tidbit that’s probably gonna end up in the history books.
When asked if the protests have made him reconsider his policies in the region, Biden said “no.”
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-speaks-college-protests-israel-gaza-war/story?id=109870179
LBJ realized he’d made a giant mistake and hoped Humphrey could end the War. Nixon ran as a ‘peace’ candidate and made things much worse.
Trump’s people would nuke the entire Middle East hoping to bring about the Rapture.
At what point does Biden realize he’s made a giant mistake? You’re lecturing us for not paying attention to history. Is Biden?
Turn it around.
Can you lay out a detailed plan showing Biden exactly what to do? Something that covers not just the Palestinians and the Israelis, but alos the iranians, the sryians, the russians, the Saudis, and all the other interested and highly armed parties in the region?
I have no idea how to restart a problem that’s been formenting since 1948, do you?
Stop shipping weapons to Israel.
If you think it’s that simple, you probably believed Trump was going to get Mexico to pay for the Wall.
You asked me a question and I answered it. Are you going to answer my question now?
At what point does Biden realize he’s made a giant mistake? You’re lecturing us for not paying attention to history. Is Biden?
Or hell, let me ask you. Given the choice between supporting Israel or Biden winning the election which would you choose?
Biden can’t decide that
It was decided by a treaty like 75 years ago.
To overthrow it would take massive changes and breaking contracts. Doable, but not in the time frame you want.
It really isn’t as simple as you think.
The communist party of America consistently votes democrat and doesn’t run a candidate. Same with the American Nazi party and republicans.
My attitude is simple, deal with the problems you can impact. The 2024 elections will not result in a loss of support for Israel. A fascist wants to run a coup in America. That’s on the table, he’s running for president. That’s a problem we can deal with.
There’s a line from the last season of ‘The West Wing’ that I always think of.
It’s election Day and the GOP and Dem campaign managers run into each other in the hotel bar. One turns to the other and tells this story.
"Got into the cab at the airport and started chatting with the cab driver. He’s a really smart guy and we’re having a great chat. Just before I get out I ask him who he’s voting for today.
"He shakes his head. Damn, he tells me, I forgot it was election Day.’
Yepppp, I’ve had to tell so many people. I think it’s one of the benefits I got from being raised by a dyed in the wool democrat. We’d argue over a lot as I was pretty radical even as a teenager, but she taught me the value of voting and participating in the democratic process. And arguing with her taught me the value of convincing everyday folks of your position.
I hate to tell the demsocs that we probably won’t elect away the capital holding class, I’d love it if we could, but we won’t. But we sure as shit can fail to vote to keep our worker protections and environmental protections. And we can vote to get a better situation, it just won’t be a revolution all on its own.
I wish I could force every school to show what the original New Deal programs would look like if implemented today.
Exactly. It’s just concessions, but life’s a hell of a lot better with those concessions.
We watched Donald do worse than Watergate on live news broadcasts.
Hmm, what to do? Better throw my ballot in the trash, because I am against genocide. If anything gets worse under this openly racist putsch planner screeching about dictatorship and absolute immunity, well, there was no way to have seen that coming, right?
I mean I dunno maybe they shouldn’t have ran a guy named hubert humphrey, sounds like the name you’d give to a fictional whale in a children’s novel hoo lee
Hi. I’m not American. But we all understand Trump’s threats. Or the inherent threat he poses. I think I speak for the world.
I’m more worried about a system that let someone like that get this far!
I almost wish Jimmy Carter would run for a second term. 99? 82? Age is just a number now apparently anyway lol
there is an understandable wave of nihilism manifesting in the younger generations that will probably persist for as long as they live. i don’t imagine the united states will stop producing nihilists for a long time as the circumstances are not projected to change
Bernie is right.
He’s right frighteningly often.
I still don’t understand why he’ll never be president except, ofc, he would never play the games that come with politics these days.
America is fast losing its chance for redemption.
Because when idiots hear Socialism they see Communism and it’s frighteningly easy to start a red scare propaganda campaign to keep him off the big ticket.
The guy who fixes my car basically runs a French-style salon out of his shop, and he told me, “The South Will never vote Socialist.” Seems he’s right so far. That and he goes against the powers that be… Bernie would have been a nightmare for the rich and powerful.
He got outpolitiked in the 2020 primary. Really the only reason why he’s not president right now.
He had 4 years to shore up his weakness with black southern voters and never did. He could’ve offered Bootyjudge VP in exchange for staying in the race and keeping the center vote split but didn’t.
But but but I won’t vote in protest!1 That will definitely make them listen! (/s)
PSA: Not voting means you have the relevance of an old man yelling at a cloud.
You move the Overton window by voting. You want policy #857? You have to vote for policy #1 first. You have to walk before you can run.
I just want one of the “You can’t vote for Biden!” people to outline what I should do instead. What’s the play here? Dismantle the government? Sure, outline your plan and let’s see if it has any merit. Protest? Great, tell me when and where but it doesn’t preclude the need to vote.
They talk big, but if their entire plan begins with “don’t vote” and ends with “bitch about it online” then it’s not a great plan.
I just got a deranged one https://reddthat.com/comment/10184028
That’s why I’m ridin with Biden, despite the genocide!
despite the genocide!
As if the other option isn’t also genocide 🙄
Why is it so hard to ask for an option that isn’t genocide?
Because a First-Past-The-Post voting system doesn’t care about your ideals. Until we have a different system, literally your only hope of effecting change is to vote for one of the two partied candidates and work locally to influence your party from the bottom-up.
Voting third party doesn’t send a message you want it to send. It doesn’t send any message at all except “I approve of whatever you choose for me.”
There are 2 sets of voters in this nation.
Those who want to solve the problems we face, and those who just want to kick the can down the road for someone else while rich people get richer.
If you vote for republicans or democrats, you’re in the latter camp.
It really puts things into perspective when you think about it like this.
What problem do you believe you’re solving by making it easier for Trump to take office?
Are you offended that women still have some control over their reproductive health, and you need to see that eroded further?
Is it a problem that we aren’t allowed to sexually assault people without repurcussion?
Do you see issues with people still being allowed to vote?
Do you hate legal immigrants, which have consistently lost rights and been victimized by the Republican party over the past few administrations?
Do you dislike your ability to relatively-freely travel abroad, due to our many alliances?
Do you wish we had a giant wall that has been proven ineffective by virtually every single study on the subject, including GOP-backed ones?
Do you wish we were helping Israel commit genocide even harder than they already are?
My issue is that while we squabble over social issues, the ruling class fucks us with fiscal ones.
Greed and the growing disparity in wealth is the worst issue we face as a species.
If Biden wins we lose. If Trump wins we lose harder. Each option results in a loss because we don’t want actually want to address the disparity in wealth.
If Biden wins we lose. If Trump wins we lose harder.
…and you think we need to lose harder?
Or do you actually believe that the system that has had the same outcome literally every single election has a chance to produce a different result? How many third-party candidates have received more than 1.5% of the vote? I’ll help: exactly FOUR in the past HUNDRED YEARS.
Or do you actually just want Trump to win and are using your enlightened centrist persona to disguise that fact?
You are truly privileged that you don’t need to worry about more utterly corrupt Fundamentalists on SCOTUS.
Self-righteous bullshit. I want to solve problems someday and that’s precisely why I vote for Democrats. Letting Trumpists take over now will make any progress vastly harder for the foreseeable future.
You’re one of the latter.
Let me know when democrats start supporting policies that reduce the disparity in wealth.
We saw everything we needed to see with Bernie. Neither establishment party cares about regular, working class people.
Ah, so since one of your two options doesn’t give you everything you want, you’ve decided that you’re okay with the one that wants to take away everything you have. Cool story, good luck with that.
Let me know when another party gets more than a single digit percent of the vote.
If you want to move the Overton window, you vote. That’s the perspective you need.
The Overton window is not something that can be changed electorally. Candidates can only get on the ballot in the first place if they’re within the Overton window, as anybody outside the window is “radical” or “extreme”, and the existing political powers forbid their candidacy. The electoral window is moved outside the electoral process, and only then can the electoral system permit new candidates with new ideas.
Lol yes it can. Why are we having idiotic discussion to disband the EPA? Because Trump won an election. That moved the Overton window, drastically at that. Why can’t Biden do ______? Because the Republicans still have a very real chance of winning. When the GOP has no chance of winning, then the Overton window can move more.
So… were just ignoring the current candidates? And the current debates and policies that each have pushed?
Yeah. You need to vote for candidates that don’t just look out for rich people.
Those people are never on my ballot, unfortunately.
How do you get that? By moving the Overton window. And how do you get that? By VOTING. But it seems you want to yell at a cloud instead. Something tells me you’ll just keep at this ‘whoo is me’, so I’m out.
Meanwhile, the Overton window has been shifting right radically. Seems like this lesser of two evils nonsense is actually doing the opposite of what you claim.
Moved because Trump won an election. But you want to suggest that’s just random? C’mon.
*Btw it’s moving the Overton window, not lesser of two evils as you want to put it. You want policy number 426? You have to vote for policy 1 first. You have to walk before you can run.
Even more reason to get Biden back in at all costs then.
Ridin’ with Biden despite the genocidin’
😆
You misspelled Netanyahu. Also you will have egg on your face from head to toe when you find out what Biden is really doing to stop the killing in the Mideast.
I’ll take Biden over the orange dictator all day, let’s get real. It really is a lesser of 2 evils.
Welcome to Lemmy, new account!
You move the Overton window by voting.
We did in 2020. It moved rightward.
Lol you think Biden is right of Trump. Right well thank you for letting me know I don’t have to reply any further.
Not what I said but cool.
I could sus it like you think Biden moved it right (lol), but that requires you ignore Trump would have actually moved it rght, which is exactly the Overton window is moving it as left as you can every step, but why the fuck am I bothering even with this you’ll just say but but but but but but Biden bad! I’m out.
Bush moved it right. Obama moved it right. Trump moved it right. Biden moved it right.
Called it! Ok really that’s it.
Okiedokie.
Ah yes, that’s why union support is at a 60 year high.
That has little to do with whatever political machinations are occurring and more to do with housing and necessities inflation driving labor pressure as a lagging inflation indicator.
Think of it as a tectonic/landscape thing rather than the stupid games people happen to be playing on the landscape.
Of course if any of them had their heads out of their own asses, or the asses of their owners, they might recognize this and start adapting…
Is that the sole measure of the overton window?
Is it fair to say that the overton window is only moving right when we are still making progress moving it left?
The overton window isn’t a zero-sum measure. It can expand simultaneously in both directions. Given that we have nazis in the street now, I’d say it’s not correct to say that it’s moving only left either.
The Unconcerned: “Orange man bad”
Me: YES! Orange man VERY bad, glad we were able to dumb it down for you in a way you can understand it.
That sound… As if millions of “muh corrupt DNC” trolls cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced…
I think it would be helpful if people tranformed their concerns from meaningless doomposting to active political effort.
Cause the first is almost as bad as not worrying at all.
Recently came across project 2025, which is a plan to upend the government for trump to run it like a dictatorship. It’s actually frightening to even entertain the possibility. And I’m guessing it’s derived from how putin got to his dictatorship position, because trump really likes putin and met with him too often.
I’m not worried. I’m just utterly disappointed in the younger generation. Not in the whole typical way you’d expect older generations to be towards the younger ones.
It’s more along the sense of “put down your fucking memes and jokes for abit and realize the reality that’s around you” deal. Because we’re now seeing the Onion practiced in our daily lives, we can’t make the shit up that is actively happening in real time. And it doesn’t affect just me, it affects you too.
We can’t be putting off this shit forever and sit there going “aww, I just hope it gets better” naturally.
Because let’s put it this way, say you don’t vote this general election and Biden wins. Okay, cool, we’ve dodged Trump. But know that in the next 4 years, Biden is not eligible to be re-elected so good on you to no longer see him on the ballot, but you’ll never know who could be next after him and there isn’t a lot of strong favorability for his VP either. Trump for all we know, is likely going to run until he dies, so he’s going to be trying again and again so long as he’s living and so long as his voter base is there to back him.
But even when he dies, god knows what the Republicans will try propping up. We’ve got a bit of a glimpse of that when known fascists like DeSantis tried running for presidency. The only reason him and other candidates has lost is because they can’t touch Trump. But when Trump does die, you know they’ll be back again.
My point is we need to keep Republican interests the fuck away. They’re nothing but destruction. How much evidence do you need before you see that? It’s all fun and games to you with your jokes and memes until you’re on the internet bitching and griping for why you think shit hits the fan or why you’re struggling to make a living.
The second Trump starts losing favor with his voters or ability to fundraise the party will drop him super hard and fast.
If he loses again, AND the Republicans get mopped down the ballot, you’ll start seeing people drop him or hang him out to dry like rats fleeing a sinking ship
Very unlikely. That’s what we all thought in 2020.
But that’s not what happened.
But know that in the next 4 years, Biden is not eligible to be re-elected so good on you to no longer see him on the ballot
I have full faith in the ability for moderates and liberals to shove an equally terrible candidate through the 2028 primaries. It will likely be HRC. Again.
Its called apathy.
Make everyones vote count (mandatory voting) and all of a sudden it matters
