NGL, not asking for a friend. Given the current trends in US politics, it seems prudent to at least look into it.
Most of the online content on the topic seems to be by immigration attorneys hustling ultra rich people. I’m not ultra rich. I have a job in tech, could work remotely, also have enough assets to not desperately need money if the cost of living were low enough.
I am a native English speaker, fluent enough in Spanish to survive in a Spanish speaking country. I am old, male, cis, hetero, basically asexual at this point. I am outgoing, comfortable among strangers.
What’s good and bad about where you live? Would it be OK for a outsider, newcomer?
First of all, stop using word “expat” when you’re talking of immigrants but from “better countries”
Hard agree, expat as a term only exists because white people wanted to separate themselves from those they deem ”lesser immigrants”
I moved to Japan from Sweden, I only call my self an immigrant because that’s what I am
PewDiePie is that you?
Haha I wish, but sadly not
I always understood that you refer to yourself and your fellow countrymen abroad as expats. You use the word immigrant when referring to others.
Yes, this is exactly how I would define it.
I also don’t think it imparts a general pro/anti integration with locals (not to say some assholes aren’t out there).
If I was thinking of immigrating elsewhere, I’d want to be near a few other people from my country who’ve been there longer than me, if only to make the transition easier and to get help with any issues specific to people from the same place.
I call myself a cultural refugee, if anyone asks.
That’s some old fashion ‘us versus them,’ kinda thinking.
I always saw expats as something between immigrants and tourists. They aren’t trying to switch countries and they aren’t just on vacation. There’s plenty of good reasons for this category, like being sent somewhere by your employer. This naturally creates a community of foreigners who aren’t necessarily worried about fitting in as a new citizen or permanent resident would be.
But yeah, this idea that Western countries have expats instead of emigrants is weird.
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I’d love to see countries mark “expat” as an option on forms…
Just as a trap to filter them all out.
It was literally in the last couple of weeks that I first came across this. I thought it just meant ‘a person living in a country in which isn’t their home country’ regardless of origin, etc. The only thing I thought of it is that it wasn’t necessarily permanent whereas immigrant to me had permanence. It’s wild that, to me, it seems to have come out of nowhere.
Depends how they behave. If they behave like “Expats”, who don’t care about integrating into our society, don’t care about learning the local language even after years, they are not welcome.
If they integrate seamless (and this does not imply giving up their identity, just to make sure), and become a good member of this society, be welcome.
Summed it up pretty well.
We love our country, and welcome you to join it. But join us - don’t bring your country’s problems here.
i barely integrate now as an american; mostly because of my neuro-divergence makes it easy for people to misread me due my intonation and body language and the number episodes of misunderstanding happened MUCH MORE frequently when i visited my potential new home country as a tourist over the last 40ish years.
i automatically qualify for citizenship for the country and i wonder what it’s going to be like if i have to live there because i have both legal and cultural claim to the country; but i’m very much american plus an american that always seems arrogant and callous to everyone no matter how much he tries.
Do you speak the country’s language already?
yes and i’ve leveraged it along w the stereotype of the entitled american tourist (thanks to my very strong american accent) to get out of most of those episodes.
Preach
When I here Expat I assume asshole xD
That seems to be a hard thing for many Americans and Brits to do. I have a couple American friends living in Europe who’ve learned the language and immersed themselves in the culture, but they’re exceptional. One even learned both the national and regional language. Not too many Americans who can converse in Catalan.
It may be hard, but if you want to live in a foreign country, it is the minimum requirement I would expect. Forcing your host to permanently bend over backwards just to cater for your lack of effort is most impolite.
You would literally lose your job and social life in the US if you said this in America about immigrants lol
The fact you’re getting dunked on for this comment shows how delusional people are.
I am born, raised, and live in one of the most diverse cities on the planet. I could care less about you assimilating to my culture. And I definitely don’t care if you can’t speak the language.
That’s some Nazi crap to judge people like that.
Learning the language of the country you’re moving to should be the bare minimum of what’s expected of you. I’d suggest taking a history lesson if your goto is comparing it to Nazism, seems rather disrespectful to actual victims of the Nazi Party.
Welcome to EU! Prepare for a cultural shift:
Considering that everyone on lemmy is 30+ communist tech worker, it’s probably a welcome change
Speaking more specifically about Poland, depending on how you measure, we might have the most rapidly secularizing society in the world Some Americans (catholic fundamentalists) seem to think that you can just barge in, snatch a tradwife and plot of land and live like it’s 50s, but these people are straight up delusional. Introducing ban on abortion, for example, erased full quarter of support for the party that did it (40% ish to 30% ish overnight) and caused largest protests since dissolution of Soviet Union. There are conservative women, but these tend to be 60+
In tech job market specifically, the bubble has ended (like everywhere else i guess), but if you’re a senior or able to keep your current job you’ll be fine (not sure how you’d get residence permit then). You’d need to lean Polish as a practical matter, because while lots of people do speak decent English, many don’t (esp. 50+ and in small towns) and many official matters can be done in Polish only. Like everywhere else, there’s division between more conservative rural areas and more liberal large cities; no one wants to live in the former, even locals, and so most of foreigners live in Warsaw (or Kraków, or Wrocław). It sounds like you’d blend in right away in one of these places. While property prices and rent went up since start of the plague, it’s not as crushingly bad as in, say, Berlin or Rotterdam. Random benefits include ability to pirate absolutely everything without VPN with no consequences and ability to use complaint as a conversation starter
I never thought about it before, but I agree - you can start a conversion by complaining.
Living in Poland all my life, I also would like to mention it feels really safe here (as a white male, so…).
Unless you’re into football, or low quality clubbing you’ll be hard to find violent crime. Domestic violence and related murders do happen, but you’ll be hard pressed to get yourself mugged or assaulted these days.
You can pay by card or via app (blik) nearly anywhere, small village shop, street produce vendor, food truck, anywhere. If they don’t want your card they are probably doing some tax fraud, or are bad at finding low card payment fees.
TL;DR: I’ve travelled a bit, and I really don’t think I’d rather live anywhere else.
I really enjoy visiting Poland. Polish people are often warm, talkative, creative and many have travelled outside Poland. I’ve had infrequent encounters with belligerent drunks, but it never got to the point of being threatening.
If I were to move there, though, I think it’d take a lot of effort to learn Polish.
That’s really funny - my very Catholic mom is going to Poland next year with some church group and the priest, lol…I apologize for her in advance!
I’ve always wanted to visit Poland and still hope I can, one day. But no weird Catholic shit!
I’m guessing she’s going to Częstochowa?
Is that the church in the salt mine? That’s the only place she’s mentioned so far, but I don’t recall the name or if she even said it, really. She may have just read about it and not known how it was pronounced.
That’s Wieliczka. There’s more to it than the church, it’s pretty cool, but you’re liable to be salty on you ur way back up.
That’s Wieliczka salt mine, sounds more like a regular tourism and less like pilgrimage. At least it’s not Licheń, plastic-clad tourist trap monstrosity where you have unique opportunity to get scammed by our only televangelist (whose main medium is radio, and is catholic)
Częstochowa is on a hill, that’s a big centuries old monastery. Frequent pilgrimage target
She may be going to more places but that’s the only one she mentioned specifically.
I’m an American living and working in Europe for years now. It’s pretty great, although language barriers can leave you feeling a little isolated sometimes. That said, the thought of going back to the US turns my stomach. European working culture is much more… Human. More understanding about things like sick days, better vacation packages and, better worker protections.
I wish the US could be better, but it no longer looks like that will happen in my lifetime so I’ll do my best to find happiness here instead.
Any tips for someone who would want to emigrate, but doesn’t have any connections? I am an engineer and I have looked at immigration requirements for places like Canada and New Zeeland in the past and it seems like the only real shot I might have is if I work for an international company that has facilities in one of those countries.
Work is how I got in. The IT sector gives you a fair bit of mobility as a worker, an EU blue card can be obtained without a degree (but with relevant experience) if you have a company sponsor you over.
Get a job that will help you immigrate. My company hired a third party to handle most of my paper work. I still had to get apostille for everything, but then they did most of the visa work. They also paid for relocation.
The language thing can be isolating but it also drives you to learn.
About language barriers: have you ever considered actually learning your host countries language?
Of course. But learning a language as an adult is a huge challenge. I take lessons but it’s slow progress, people aren’t always understanding when you stumble or don’t know words and I’m juggling full time professional work on top of it so time and mental energy are limited.
Even after years of practice I will never not sound like a foreigner, which is distancing.
There is no need to be perfect. But it at least shows effort. I have met people who lived here for 40 years and never bothered to learn even simple words or phrases. And that lack of effort, this absolute disinterest in ones host society is, in my opinion, highly impolite and antisocial.
In tech, is there really a need, though? All of this year’s new hires I’ve met communicate exclusively in English. No-one cares.
It might not be a job problem to just function, but not learning the local language makes you a bit anti-social in any other aspect.
Here in Scotland / the UK you’d be absolutely fine so long as you’re a decent person. There’s not even a language barrier beyond dialect, and dialects vary hugely within the UK and each part of the UK anyway. Just please don’t insist that your great-great-grandmother is actually from Clan MacWhatever.
Does establishing some kind of ancestry actually do anything? I did a whole report on my great great grandfather on my mother’s side and learned about the name and the clan. Still remember the motto and official plaid and all that jazz. Never once considered it’d ever be relevant to anything.
It is fun seeing “nec sorte, nec fato” pop up ocassionally tho.
It might allow you to join the clan as a social club, essentially. A fair few of them have newsletters and run events where they get together, so it can be a good network. It doesn’t affect the day-to-day life of the average person, though
What if my mom grew up across the road from Bellahouston Park?
Then it’s no wonder she left
I live in southwestern England, and make it clear that I have no ancestral ties to the place, I just like living there. People seem OK with that answer.
I am originally from the US but moved to AU and am now a citizen. I got lucky and got out just before Trump’s first presidency.
Life here is good. Like, better than most Americans can really understand. Healthcare is free, education is good and includes topics like critical thinking and understanding how to spot “fake news”.
There is only a small aisle of frozen food in the grocery store, not nearly as much pre-packaged food. There are affordable fresh fruits and vegetables, and outside most grocery stores is an independent baker, butcher, fishmonger, and fruit and veg stand.
Minimum wage is $24.10 an hour, and you cannot be fired for no reason if you are a full time employee.
If you compare things (and adjust for AUD to USD) like rent, gas, milk, bread, eggs… Things cost about the same here as in the US.
We pay around the same amount in taxes, and get so much more.
Things aren’t completely rosy, distressingly, Australia seems to want to emulate the US in certain ways which worries me.
There is also currently a bit of an economic downturn and while it’s nothing like what I left behind, it does mean things cost more and luxuries have to be budgeted for.
I think anyone who isn’t a dick would be welcome here. There are racist cunts here like everywhere, but generally Aussies are the kindest and most welcoming people.
You would do good here in The Netherlands. Lots of tech jobs, over here you actually have rights as an employee. No max amount of sick days for example, as no one plans a certain amount of days to be sick. The “FrEeDoM” Americans claim to have is so twisted and extremity far away from actual freedom. Here in NL I do feel I have true freedom. As in: not having to be scared when going out on the streets at night, no matter where I go. There are no guns. No crimes against humanity. Of course we do have issues, every country does. But they are tiny compared to most countries. Although we did vote for right wing parties sadly, we’re not heading in the direction I want.
Oh and EVERYONE speaks English. From child to boomer. Officially it’s not a foreign language anymore due to the high level English most speak. They are even discussing it should be a 3rd national language.
Edit: there’s also a (very unfair to us natives) 30%!!! tax cut for expats to make NL more attractive. So you will make a lot of money yet pay less taxes while having loads of benifits as an employee.
Only issue right now is finding a house. Not enough houses so insane prices. A real housing crisis.
A small side note on that 30% ruling, it’s only for highly skilled workers, so there are some requirements to meet.
Also, you’d best not boast about it to your Dutch coworkers if you want to make friends over here :)In tech it’s not that hard to get it. It’s purpose is to make NL attractive to educated workers. Especially these days there are not enough employees in many sectors, so as long as you have an education or can prove you have specialized work experience you’re good.
I have American friends who emigrated to the Netherlands and I go there a lot on business too. There are a few other things that are worth considering: Dutch people are generally friendly, but they also tend to take a strong line on assimilation. If you want to live there, learn Dutch and learn how Dutch culture works. Otherwise you won’t fit in. As with any society, there are unwritten rules and norms of behavior that might seem strange at first. For example, the Dutch value frankness more than diplomacy. That can make them seem blunt, even to Americans.
Dutch is not far from English, both are on the same branch of the Germanic languages, but it’s very idiomatic, so fluency can be hard to achieve. Also, the fact that everyone’s so good at English reduces the pressure to learn Dutch. Language learning’s quicker when it’s the only way you can communicate.
And the previous poster’s comment on the housing shortage is no exaggeration: it’s a crisis. Expect difficulty and predatory middlemen when seeking housing.
Also, the weather can be intense: freezing North Sea winds and sideways rain.
Whaaaaaat…?
We are very multicultural, if you don’t want to adjust, that’s fine. There are enough people around who are similar to you. Only if you want to fit in you need to adjust, but that’s in any culture. Over here there’s not that much pressure to do that. Unless you live in the countryside.
Dutch and English are not similar at all. They have completely different origins. Dutch has a germanic origin and English an anglosaxon heritage.
The weather is not intense at all. It’s just humid, so 25C feels like 35C and 5C feels like -5C. But not as humid as a rainforest. Near the coast there’s some wind, but in the cities and inland not too much. Winters have become mild, summers kinda hot but compared to other regions of the world our climate is very mild. Just expect a lot of rain, but compared to the UK even that aspect is really mild too. Just prepare for us to always complain about it. And about everything else too.
Yeah, Dutch people are generally pretty blunt. When you tell something we don’t like will will tell you, politely, where a British person would say “ah that’s interesting”. For autistic people (like me) our directness is really nice. No beating around the bush.
Some English world have a Germanic origin, like “fart”.
Yeah, and vice verse. Europe has a long history, would be weird if there were no words adopted from another language.
Do you think bike shops in there Nerherlands would be interested in hiring American bicycle mechanics?
Yeah, for sure. Mechanics are getting scarce, everyone is pushed to get “HiGhEr EdUcAtIoN” so everyone knows how to use a keyboard but never used a hammer and a screwdriver. A lot of uddy of mine is a carpenter, the money he makes is insane because there just aren’t that many skilled people put there anymore. Our bikes have a bit different design, people sit more up right as we use it as a form of transportation instead of for sports. But the mechanics work the same. Although electric bikes are taking over the market right now.
Housing is one of the biggest stuggles for my family. I have 3 kids and so few houses are built for that in the EU. It’s really frustrating every time I look for something.
I have 3 kittens. Much better options
The housing crisis is prevalent everywhere in Europe, though. But it’s not like droves of people have to sleep rough. Yes, rents keep going up, but they are still only a fraction of what you would pay in the US.
And you can actually still buy houses. Really cheap, even. Far off the highways, but some people opt in to exactly that.The Netherlands has a worse housing crisis then the rest of Europe. Houses are not cheaper then in the US. Far from it. Also, the US is really big, so you can’t say that actually. San Francisco and Detroit have completely different housing markets for example. Next to that, here in NL we don’t build huizes from wood, which makes them more expensive as well. And our government extremity limited construction due to EU emission regulations because they are too scared to limit the biggest polutors, the farmers, with their massive export production. Because farmers protest with tractors and tractors are scary. So we prefer farming exports over housing apparently. Because we don’t buy fruits and vegetables produced in The Netherlands, they are too expensive. We buy cheap tasteless junk from Spain and Egypt. So most agricultural production is for export. The profits of our farmers are more important to us then being able to pay our own bills and aging a roof over our heads.
Why would I want people from a less privileged country coming here and stealing our jobs, putting a burden on our healthcare system and making housing even more expensive?
Congratulations America, you’re now the english language Mexico… with worse Tacos.
Hey not cool don’t diss Mexico like that
This is what so many don’t understand. Other countries don’t want us. Why would they?
If you have some skill that they are short on. That is the main reason. In that way you aren’t just some filthy American, your a skilled worker.
That excludes most of us. For example I’m a pricing analyst. Doubt they’d even need me, let alone all the people working retail or customer service positions.
Yeah most of the auto mechanics probably voted for Trump, but a lot didn’t. We have a ton of people working in restaurants, driving for Lyft, etc.
Most people are fucked.
This mechanic voted for Harris.
This mechanic is also never worried about anything. Republican or Democrat, your car breaks down all the same, and I’ll be waiting with a bill that doesn’t give any sort of a shit about inflation as you’re all well-aware.
And by the way? This is Trump’s point of view, and it’s hilarious to see it not called fascism just because it’s a person from another country.
Wait what? If an economy is to accept an immigrant, that immigrant should be either contributing to society, seeking asylum, or both.
Yeah. Trump has said that we’re taking in too many undesirables from other countries, and he’s bad for that.
Lots of Americans here in London, UK. They’ve generally been transferred by their company though. I expect it’s v hard to get in when applying for a new job.
I never even considered the UK, in spite of having English friends here in the states, and US friends currently living there, and enjoying it. My limited knowledge is that visa issues are problematic, and the cost of living is rather high. Culturally it would be great.
The UK spent hundreds of years searching for and taking home all the culture they could due to specifically not having any culture whatsoever back home. They also used that culture like they used their spices, which is not at all. The English are a terrible example of humanity and should not be recognized as anything other than the barbarians they are.
The UK should absolutely give back cultural artifacts it took from around the world, but everything else you said is silly.
I think that was the point. To be silly.
There’s much more to culture than artifacts. Besides a few encounters in London, I’ve seldom encountered “terrible examples of humanity” here. Mostly, people are friendly, or at worst, indifferent.
Just like the “nice” Germans right around 1935 and 1940
In my country you’d be locked up at a random moment of your stay. Tortured in prison, used as a trading chip in a complex web of international intrigue and diplomacy. Accused of terrorism. Paraded for political manipulation of the masses. Then unceremoniously put in a plane to Canada so US authorities can go pick you up. But it would be very nice and welcoming up to that point.
man, france really changed its tone
Russia?
The Netherlands is generally quite friendly towards (English speaking) immigrants and expats. Almost everyone speaks English and no one really bats an eye at a non-Dutch resident in most of the major western cities (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, the Hague, etc.)
Housing is terrible though, prices are high and it’ll be hard to find something nice. One advantage for you (or any US resident), is that you’re exempt from the inburgering exam. Which means that you won’t have to learn the language and won’t be tested on your integration in Dutch society.My partner is from abroad and they’ve experienced living here as quite pleasant. They weren’t exempt from the exam though (different non-EU nationality), which was a bit of a nuisance. But in general, reception was positive. They’ve been living here for over 16 years now.
But like most of Europe, we’ve got a far-right government right now, so there’s a lot of anti-immigration talk going round. Of course it’s only aimed at what they think are the “wrong” (Middle-Eastern and African) kind of people, so I doubt Americans would ever have to deal with it.How trans friendly is the Netherlands? I like bikes and tall people are hot, lol.
It’s generally LGBTQ friendly especially in Amsterdam but as the other comment said there’s also a far right movement going on so it’s not all roses and rainbows.
Canadian Here. prior to the election? we’d be welcoming. now? there seems to be a general sense of “we don’t what that idiocy here” the right-wing cons of Canada would likely embrace Americans but the general consensus with my friends and family is that Americans are now considered morons (left and right leaning).
Americans are now considered morons (left and right leaning)
Why the left-leaning ones? Because we didn’t do enough to prevent this catastrophe?
Heidelberg, Germany. This town is already more American than some towns in America.
Brazil is a Bad Idea®.
- There’s a reasonable chance that a Trump-like clown wins in 2026. Probably a Bolsonaro ally, or even a relative (there have been talks about his wife running for presidency).
- Repeat with me the Latin American mantra: Nothing Fucking Works®.
- Ask Haitians and Venezuelans how they’re treated.
Repeat with me the Latin American mantra: Nothing Fucking Works®.
Costa Rica does!
Weird way to talk about immigrants
