Dbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Ahoy mateys!
A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.
But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. …
More context
Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.
As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. …
Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.
In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.
Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated
i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it
This thread even 18 hrs later:
It has created some funny interactions, the best part is that it still has one more day left in the all/active tab
That isn’t how I’m seeing any of this.
Meanwhile Zionists perpetuate real violence on real people by the hundreds of thousands. God forbid people online be mad at them.
And what does that have to do with people removing peoples posts calling for more violence?
lemmy.ml has multiple posts today about how everyone who disagrees with them is nazi or pedophiles.
such ‘open-minded’ types they are.
When I was new to Lemmy, I wanted to get memes, and the migration tool suggested the memes on lemmy.ml. It didn’t take long before my first comment disagreeing with some tankie over USSR and chinese communism got removed for “Civility”. It was a normal, non-insulting comment in expectance of a normal conversation.
You cannot criticise China’s treatment of the Uyghurs without getting your comments removed and almost everyone with a .ml-account I’ve encountered denied the crimea and genocides of USSR, the Russian Federation and China, and this denial is enforced by mods and admins.
I’m really wondering what db0-admins think about defeserating lemmy.ml though.
Oh, yeah, “They removed my comment where I’m just an asshole and telling people to kill themselves, they are such zionists 😭”
The fuck is wrong with you guys?
Yeah, the good old “You are a Nazi for following rules”-thing. Because everyone who follows rules does so indly, except for oneself.
One may well ask: “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “an unjust law is no law at all.”
- Martin Luther King Jr. in Birmingham Jail 1963
How would you categorize the community rules “Be nice to each other”, “Don’t insult each other” and “Don’t call for violence”? Just or unjust, dair or unfair, sensible or dumb, expedient or not?
How would you categorize the feddit.org admin using a snark comm to get people to send DM harrassment to users who upvoted the feddit.org defederation thread?
is that ‘being nice’?
Why the whataboutism? Please answer my question and do not answer with whataboutism or the discussion is over.
you started the whataboutism with 'what about the community rules"
please answer my question and do not answer with whataboutism or the discussion is over.
I think a poll or just reporting, blocking, and ignoring them would be better than “leave your comments below”. I’m exhausted and confused just trying to decipher them.
This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.
The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.
The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.
Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can’t say for example is “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!”. This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it’s) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.
However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.
Now, the person who makes the statement “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!” is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it’s also saying that they’re roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it “down” to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.
Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about “how national socialism is talked about exactly”?! Isn’t it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.
This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.
Now, if you say something like “Trump’s ICE resembles early national socialism!”, that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, “early [stages of] national socialism”, and not “national socialism [in general]”.
Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people’s lives than the other.
I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from “full national socialism style genocide”. I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn’t know/understand/agree with this argument.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany.
As someone with a relative who died in a Nazi death camp, I resoundingly disagree. The scale may be relatively smaller, given that they’re attempting to steal a much smaller area of land for their Lebensraum, but the level of evil is the same.
Look into the story of Muhammed Bhar or Hind Rijab and tell me it’s not. I’ll tell you your soul is compromised.
If you rely on the German standard, you’d never be able to call a genocide a genocide until its fully executed.
Which obviously supports those committing the genocide.
Have you really not seen me multiple times calling the genocide in Gaza a genocide? The ability to recognize the genocide in Gaza as a genocide is very much there, you really can’t see it?
Look at the response in context of Feddit. Its not a critique of you, per se, its a critique of the German law/ idealogical approach. Lets suggest, in your words, a full “national socialist” genocide is at least possible in this day and age. The world did no know the full extent of Germany’s action until well into the process.
If we rely on the logic of the German approach, we wouldn’t be able to call the thing a thing until its too late. The point being made is that if you wait long enough to be able to a full historical analysis, you’ve effectively become an apologist for genocide on the basis of a lack of evidence.
And I would argue that Israels actions over the previous 80 years are extremely comparable to what the National Socialists did in Germany, and in some ways, even more disgusting. Germany ran concentration camps for around 12 years. Israel has been running them for almost 80. Germany treated it as a war of extermination. Israel is running it as a war of extermination. What other than a death camp would you call Israelli detention facilities?
The only difference is that we have the opportunity to stop Israel in its tracks, now, as its becomes clear the Israelies are not going to stop until the entire Palestinian population is eliminated. Disallowing or diminishing comparisons between the most famous historical genocide and the ongoing Israeli genocide in Palestine supports genocide
The thing is called a thing and should be called a thing. I.e. genocide. All genocide needs to be stopped at almost any cost. I don’t have any capacity to argue further, so many people are saying things.
The thing is called a thing and should be called a thing.
Ok. Well thats not what you are doing and its not what German law or Feddit is doing. People are trying to call a thing a thing, and are getting push back saying “You can’t call this thing that thing”.
You are doing the thing people are accusing you of; you are apologizing for genocide, not resisting it.
You again ignore that the “thing” I talk about is a “genocide”, which is what is happening, and it is one of the worst things humans can do to each other and needs to be stopped at all costs.
You insist on not trying to understand, I’m done.
You insist on not trying to understand
No, its that you continue to insist that your “nuance” isn’t apoligism.
I’m done.
This isn’t a train station. No need to announce your departure. Everyone here can read your words and judge you for themselves, and they are, and they see you apologizing for genocide. You should take the time of your departure to mediate on why that might be.
The ability to recognize the genocide in Gaza as a genocide is very much there
Only while saying the people resisting it are also wrong and doing Holocaust exceptionalism in defense of liberal zionists, lmao.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
The original comment was good and correct. Supporting one settler state committing genocide is actually the same as supporting another.
Only while saying the people resisting it are also wrong
I’ve never said that the people resisting their genocide were wrong to do it. You’re intentionally misinterpreting what I’m saying.
The original comment was good and correct
I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I tried to explain the nuance, but apparently I failed, I’m sorry about that.
I’ve never said that the people resisting their genocide were wrong to do it. You’re intentionally misinterpreting what I’m saying.
No, I’m really not. You’re all over this thread repeating hasbara lies about Hamas and misrepresenting the history of “Israel” in comparison to the history of the Holocaust (you correctly include the Warsaw Ghetto in the Holocaust but appear to think the Nakba isn’t relevant).
You might actually have convinced yourself that this is principled and nuanced anti-zionism, but it’s not. You are being a zionist and I urge you to reconsider your positions on this.
I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I tried to explain the nuance, but apparently I failed, I’m sorry about that.
You didn’t fail to explain what you mean, I understood that. Where you failed is that you are, knowingly or unknowingly, manufacturing nuance that does not exist.
The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful.
“The Jews never fought back” is certainly an incredible take, especially from a German.
In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Do you not understand colonialism? Of course you think history began on October 7th, 2023, but only when it concerns the actions of “Israelis”.
Do you not understand colonialism?
I’m completely aware that this originally started with the zionist invasion of palestine in the early 20th century.
I’m completely aware that this originally started with the zionist invasion of palestine in the early 20th century.
From your other comment next to this one…
“The Jews never fought back” is not what I said. Again, you intentionally try to misinterpret what I said. I was specifically talking about the time before the Holocaust even started, there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.
Do you not see how you’re not being consistent?
I do understand what you mean, however the attempted genocide that christians, jews and muslims are doing to each other is much older than any of that. You do not truly know anymore who started, the only thing I personally know is that the same way that a genocide against Palestinians needs to be stopped, so does a call for genocide against Israelis. Of course, due to other countries (including Germany) support of Israel, Palestine needs special protection and the immediate ceasing of all support to Israel.
What you do not see is that we don’t truly disagree, I’m just trying to explain one of the multi-faceted thought patterns that go on in some people’s brains. Multiple different concepts can co-exist at the same time, and do not necessarily contradict each other, like saying that the genocide in gaza needs to be stopped immediately and the genocide in Gaza and in the Holocaust not being the literal same.
I do understand what you mean, however the attempted genocide that christians, jews and muslims are doing to each other is much older than any of that.
Incorrect and also hasbara. This is an ahistorical orientalist fabrication that is designed to obscure the very clear and obvious colonial nature of “Israel”.
What you do not see is that we don’t truly disagree
We do disagree. Your entire view of the so-called “conflict” is based on zionist lies, which is why you can never meaningfully oppose it no matter how much you think you do.
“The Jews never fought back” is not what I said. Again, you intentionally try to misinterpret what I said. I was specifically talking about the time before the Holocaust even started, there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.
“In Germany after National Socialism we have all been brainwashed to support genocide and Zioism and have to legally support our government sending weapons to a genocide because we like the previous one so much. Also we have a Gestapo which enforces this just like how we did in WW2”.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
Literally putting on the classic Nazi disclaimer
Can you explain why Germans have learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust?
Can you explain why Germans have learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust?
America and Western Europe were more interested in fighting the cold war, so they rehabilitated most of the nazis and put them in charge of everything.
In 1957, 77% of the [West German Justice Ministry’s] senior officials were former Nazis, which, according to the study, was a higher proportion that during Hitler’s Third Reich government, which existed from 1933 to 1945.
This is only one small example, the practice was widespread in West German as well as NATO generally.
That report also found that 14% of workers in the East German Interior Ministry were former Nazis — a surprising finding, considering the communist government’s purportedly rigorous effort to rid itself of former Nazis.
Notice the extreme difference here, between 77% and 14%. Even if East Germany’s de-nazification was probably not as thorough as it could and should have been due to practical concerns, it was still nothing like in the West. I’m saying this because I fully expect the “both sides did it” deflection from westerners (which is what the linked article is obviously trying to do in this quote). Notice also “senior officials” vs. “workers”.
I don’t disagree with your assessment that some kind of propaganda in support of zionism and maybe even genocide is happening. But if you really see support of genocide and zionism in what I personally just said, I really don’t know what I could say to convince you. It seems you’re not truly listening to me and trying to understand. I can just hope eventually you will see that there is no point to us fighting, and I wish you well.
Edit: and to say “Germans have learned literally nothing from the Holocaust” is just ridiculous. You’re using false hyperbole to make Germans in general (who have very diverse political opinions individually!) seem like literal evil, and that simply helps no one except the ones that want us to fight.
The German government is sending 30% the weapons to mass murder Palestinians in a concentration camp. This denial of full German government support for genocide is why nobody takes Germans seriously when they claim to care about the Holocaust. Take a long hard look at this image and see what you can take away from it
If you really see support of genocide and zionism in what I said, I really don’t know what I could say to convince you. It seems you’re not truly listening to me and trying to understand.
Oh no, people are not trying to understand your subtle and nuanced argument of “Palestinian genocide and the Holocaust are different because the Jews never fought back”.
You are trying to reduce my argument to one dimension that “sounds” reasonable, while ignoring things like it literally being in the charter of Hamas to destroy all Jewish people in Israel. And you’re going to say it is the prerogative of Palestinians to fight back, and again I would completely agree with you. It just doesn’t make much sense to argue with you, so I’m going to stop.
And there it is the Zionist blood libel against Palestinians and repeat of genocide propaganda.
it literally being in the charter of Hamas to destroy all Jewish people in Israel
The one you are referring to is the 1988 one written 50 years ago that immediately became irrelevant just a few years after it was written. It was and has been irrelevant since basically the beginning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter
While the 1988 Hamas Charter had been widely criticized for its antisemitism, the 2017 document removed the antisemitic language and stated that Hamas’ fight was not with Jews as such because of their religion but with the "Zionist project."When asked, Hamas leaders explained that “The original charter has now become a historical document and part of an earlier stage in our evolution. It will remain in the movement’s bookshelf as a record of our past.”
edit: if it’s not clear, my tone isn’t meant to be debate or assholeish but genuine correction on that point, i just noticed that specific part from this thread and wanted to correct the record
You are trying to reduce my argument to one dimension that “sounds” reasonable, while ignoring things like it literally being in the charter of Hamas to destroy all Jewish people in Israel.
How surprising, you’re doing Hasbara. The charter was irrelevant soon after it was written, Hamas changed many times very quickly throughout its history, and the charter you’re referring to was in fact literally replaced with a new one in 2017. You are a zionist.
And you’re going to say it is the prerogative of Palestinians to fight back, and again I would completely agree with you.
No, you wouldn’t and you didn’t. The trick of “fighting back is their right but they’re doing it wrong” isn’t fooling anyone.
the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany
Last I checked, the genocidal state of Israel is actually using weapons to vaporize Palestinians, thus leaving not even a trace of a war crime. Would you like to amend your statement?
You know full well that this is not relevant to the point I was making, and seems like arguing in bad faith. If so, then please reconsider being kind and rational.
If you are genuine, then: I hoped it was very obvious that I know that some of what Israel is doing is as bad, and worse than what happened in the Holocaust. That does not mean that the scale is the same, or that the situation leading up to this is the same. While very clear parallels can be seen, and the direction this is going is very clear as well, it is simply false that the genocide in Gaza is even in the same order of magnitude as the Holocaust yet. That does not mean that the genocide in Gaza isn’t absolutely terrible, what I’m saying is that the Holocaust was just that bad. Is that enough amendment?
Look up what the term ‘order of magnitude’ means and please absorb the -fact- that you are wrong in this statement. The genocide in Palestine is literally the same order of magnitude as the holocaust.
Then look up the term ‘lampshading’ and refer back to your original comment at the beginning of this thread.
Crying preemptively about how people are going to call you a nazi doesn’t make you any less of a nazi.
what [Netenyahu’s Israel is] doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany.
Very difficult to say this for sure. Some of the acts we’ve seen are on the same level, frankly. And how could you possibly measure this, objectively?
I don’t think this can be argued meaningfully, and so should be removed from your argument.
As to the German law:
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Is that applicable here on Lemmy?
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Is it up to the mods to interpret German law and apply it?
Very difficult to say this for sure.
I agree, but the death toll for example is a potential way to measure it. But again, I never said that the genocide in Gaza should happen, in fact I want it to be stopped by almost any means necessary, like not a counter-genocide.
Is that applicable here on Lemmy?
I’m not providing any commentary about what should be done, I was just hoping to help people understand that feddit.org is not filled or run by Zionists.
Very difficult to say this for sure. Some of the acts we’ve seen are on the same level, frankly. And how could you possibly measure this, objectively? I don’t think this can be argued meaningfully, and so should be removed from your argument.
I was attacked by people from dbzer0 and called “pro genocide” for saying that, but: There is of course a way to measure and compare violent acts. There is a whole academic field called “Comparative Genocide Studies” which, as you can guess, studies genocides, their differences, how they were committed and is trying to compare them or to categorize them. There are also people doing this from a military point of view studying how wars are fought and so on. That is something you can do - but not here on Lemmy.
As to the German law: Is that applicable here on Lemmy? Is it up to the mods to interpret German law and apply it?
Yes? Feddit.org is an austrian/german site and therefore has to operate under local rules. The fediverse is not some lawless cyberspace thing. It has servers running in datacenters and those servers have to account for local laws. It has people funding those servers and those people are people living in their home country have to obey local laws.
those people are people living in their home country have to obey local laws.
You have a moral responsibility to disobey moral injustices, even when, actually, especially when they are codified into law. If you rely on the German standard you have no functional mechanism to communicate that a genocide as as bad as the Holocaust is occurring. Which is obviously ridiculous, and you should disobey that law.
I think people attacking you as “pro-genocide” is exactly as reasonable as the German standard disallowing comparison of Nazism, which is funny.
The existence of a field of study which purports to compare genocide doesn’t validate your assertion that Israel is less evil than the third Reich. I still don’t think you can make this point.
The German law around speech comparing anything to Nazism sounds complex and subtle. I would argue that it’s a matter for the courts to decide, rather than for unqualified moderators to overcomply in advance.
If you are a coward then just don’t talk at all sbout Gaza and don’t defend zionism
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In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it,
ah yes the “im just following orders” defence the favorite of the saurkrauts.
I wonder why people compared ICE to the gestapo?
the Gestapo (Secret State Police) actively deported people, playing a central role in the systematic roundup and deportation of Jews and other perceived enemies of the Nazi regime to ghettos and extermination camps during the Holocaust
The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful.
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising jews actually did fought back against being exterminated by the Nazis, or do you see them as violent extremist too?
This user is suspected to have relations to Russo-Chinese state media and Marxist sympathies, please report any suspicious behavior to https://cia.gov/
ah yes the “im just following orders” defence the favorite of the saurkrauts
What I said had nothing to do with that. Anyway, I can’t keep up with all the stuff people are saying to me, so please excuse if I don’t elaborate further.
jews actually did fought back against being exterminated by the Nazis
What I mean was in the time before the Holocaust even started.
What I mean was in the time before the Holocaust even started.
When do you think “Israelis” started committing genocide against Palestinians? Hint: “Israel” is a settler colony.
The current one? Roughly around 1919 with the British support of an Israeli state.
That’s a fair answer. And when was Hamas founded? By comparing those two dates, you can see that it’s actually the same as Jews fighting back against the Holocaust.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it.
True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers. In their logic, abiding to the law in Germany is equivalent to following direct orders from the Gestapo. Maybe you just don’t want to get arrested and put in jail for running a niche community on the internet, but that’s not even an argument to them.
Some people in that db0 thread even suggested feddit.org should just shut down completely, which is ridiculous. Every country must’ve laws you don’t agree with, but you don’t run and hide because of that.
This “we vs. them” attitude is exactly what’s been criticized about MAGA all of the time, but doing it in this case is perfectly legitimate, somehow. I don’t know what kind of brain gymnastics you’ll have to do to come to a conclusion like this.
It’s just exhausting trying to talk to these people. I say let them shut down their community and hang out in their radicalized bubble. Good riddance.
There is no black and white in settler colonialism
True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers.
“Black and white thinking” is when you don’t like people who defend their defense of genocide by saying “it’s the law”?
This “we vs. them” attitude is exactly what’s been criticized about MAGA all of the time, but doing it in this case is perfectly legitimate, somehow. I don’t know what kind of brain gymnastics you’ll have to do to come to a conclusion like this.
“Opposing genocide is the same as being MAGA because of vibes” is really incredible analysis, keep it up.
discuss.tchncs.de
Sometimes I wonder if German instances are a social experiment and our reactions are being recorded and analyzed.
The internet is awesome. You can discuss genocides with someone who named himself after an dictator who did several genocides! Who has a picture of this dictactor in his profile! And this guy is attacking others for “defense of genocide”! Great invention this internet thingy!
this is so historically illiterate it’s laughable. What genocides did lenin commit lmao
For example the genocide on the don cossacks:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Cossackization
and of course the whole Red Terror which killed several millions:
The internet is awesome. You can discuss genocides with someone who named himself after an dictator who did several genocides! Who has a picture of this dictactor in his profile! And this guy is attacking others for “defense of genocide”! Great invention this internet thingy!
We have found the most historically literate feddit user.
Are you really denying that Lenin killed several millions of people?
Yay anarchists! 👍
Boo zionists! 👎Classical Lemmy.ml comment
Funny how you guys generalize ml users then get mad when people generalize feddit.org users
I thought this was meant as a compliment until I saw “@feddit.org”, lmao.
I thought .ml were disgusting authoritarian tankies, now also anarchists are tankies? Almost as if it was a left-punching slur all along :o
I meant the inability between distinguishing moderating hate speech and supporting genocide.
Lemmy.ml definitely has its problem with nuanced positions.
There is no nuance in settler colonialism and supermasist ideologies
This really is a great thread for finding people to block!
Especially since the .ml-ers are mostly Putin bootlickers and authoritarian fans. I hope real anarchists can see that.
But you don’t understand Putin is fighting NATO, he’s a hero! Who cares about the dead Ukranians, they deserve it for not wanting to be conquered by imperialist Russia.
Sorry, what was that? I can’t hear you when you’re all the way over in defederation.
Nice. Props to db0
This solidifies my decision for migrating my account from there to piefed.social. Not because I support those views but because this means that many of the communities I’m subscribed to won’t be visible anymore from there. Personally I’ve not seen the problem in the mentioned communities but I also don’t actively participate in deep political discussions especially regarding Israel/Palestine since I don’t have the energy for that.
You know you can just have multiple accounts on multiple instances, right? That gets you just about as full a view on the Fediverse as you might want. Heck, the only reason I’m not doing it is because I’m lazy.
Also, whining about db0 then moving to the instance that literally implements CCP politics and shadow profiling and comes from a dev known to have had a chip against heteronormativity and weirdness (if not against neurodivergence) is… not the win you think it is.
Yup that’s the way to go. Actually my first client I used for Lemmy (Liftoff) made multiple accounts really easy since you could switch feeds and accounts in one click and quickly. But even if you just use multiple accounts on the web switching between tabs or using Tesseract isn’t that difficult.
I know but I hate account jumping. I prefer to have everything in one place.
Oh that’s absolutely understandable. The more with how bloated interfaces tend to be these days.
Just mind, you have to consider what does it mean for your instance to be open enough to serve you everything in one account.
Also, whining about db0 then moving to the instance that literally implements CCP politics and shadow profiling and comes from a dev known to have had a chip against heteronormativity and weirdness (if not against neurodivergence) is… not the win you think it is.
Can you provide some sources for that?
here is it https://lemmy.zip/post/58054095/24326297
Thank you. No wonder I haven’t seen stuff like this if it’s posted in meme communities.
It’s been on the public fediverse eye enough that I don’t need to do your homework for you, but just look for mentions to piefed in this same sub. One of the exemplary things that was found was that you can’t eg.: “upload a picture that contains the word ‘anonymous’” and that Piefed lies to you about why.
Okay great, you assume that everyone reads everything. I was just asking for examples because I haven’t seen any and figured you must have seen some and can link them.
This solidifies my decision for migrating my account from there to piefed.social
but I also don’t actively participate in deep political discussions especially regarding Israel/Palestine
Showing your true colours here. By the way, it’s not “political discussions regarding Israel/Palestine”, call it by its name: genocide of Palestinians by Israel.
Yes the genocide of Palestinians is bad but I have only so much energy to care deeply about things in the world. I can’t change anything about what is happening there, it’s not in my power to do so.
Edit: And comments like yours are the reason why I usually abstain from participating in “political discussions”. It’s exhausting.
I can’t change anything about what is happening there, it’s not in my power to do so.
Are you boycotting Israeli goods, media, and anything else that could give money to the Zionist entity? That’s the bare minimum any person of conscience should do.
Yes, maybe that would do something but also as I said I can’t care about everything to the fullest degree or be informed about everything because no one has that energy. For example I could ask you the same regarding veganism and the vast majority of people won’t care about that (I care because every decision buying food, clothing and other things directly impacts the lives of animals for example).
I can’t care about everything to the fullest degree or be informed about everything because no one has that energy
I know people who work all the time and have energy. You have probably a mixture of privilege and exhaustion. We’re talking about scanning some barcodes so you can help avoid preventing fellow human beings, including children, from being massacred.
For example I could ask you the same regarding veganism
I am a vegan lol
I know people who work all the time and have energy. You have probably a mixture of privilege and exhaustion. We’re talking about scanning some barcodes so you can help avoid preventing fellow human beings, including children, from being massacred.
Am I privileged as a trans woman?
There are many easy things that add up and take up mental space and lead to exhaustion and empathy/compassion fatigue.
I am a vegan lol
You know what I mean. Vegans are the vast minority among people.
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I don’t think you have bad intent here, but I think Riverside didn’t like the implication that “deep political discussions” are necessary to understand that “Israel/Palestine” is in fact “the colonial genocide of Palestinians by Israel”. I think that’s fair. It’s OK to not want to discuss politics online, but you don’t need “deep discussions” to know that colonialism is always wrong.
And it is also not what I said or meant. Assumptions are dangerous. And people also have to keep in mind that not everyone speaks perfect English. Sometimes things get lost in translation or it can be difficult for someone to articulate themselves in a non-native language (like me).
The point is to exhaust you down to the point you don’t fight back.
I have actually seen some influence agents pushing iran war and israel and such just lately. Usg must be expanding out to lemmy with their bs.
lol so you join the place with the social credit score
Oooh the irony!
Notice how the ragebait, communication destroying comments and got’chas are coming from a handful of users in this thread (Cowbee, Riverside, etc.) Ask yourself why they would want to separate the left and who benefits from that.
Edit: ah and like clockwork, the “I now want to communicate reasonably” spiel. Not falling for that one.
Wow seems like all the bad actors got caught by this.
Notice how the criticisms are based on a fundamental lie: that feddit.org is a zionist instance. Without that lie all of the agitators “arguments” crumble to the sad leftist-dividing dust that they are.
Calling for death to nations (and their civilians) is a call for genocide. I hope non-extremists can see that.
Also, as a tip: don’t answer the trolls and agitators. Leave them hanging, screaming into the wind.
Zionists are not on the left
Death to America
If you allow people defending a supermasist ideology like zionism than you are a zionist bar simple as that
Ask yourself why they would want to separate the left
Oh, i’m sorry, zionists are leftists now?
Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology which its goal is establishing the state of Israel on the Palestinian’s occupied land.
“If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? […] They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?” — David Ben-Gurion
“You are being invited to help make history. It doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen but Jews… How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial.” — Theodore Herzl draft to Cecil Rhodes
Zionism (the belief that Israel has a right to exist) is fundamentally incompatible with leftism. Fighting with zionists isn’t left-wing infighting, it’s punching right.
and who benefits from that.
Leftists do. movements do not need zionist liberals muddying and diluting it until it’s meaningless. “Leftists” who believe Israel has a right to exist are right-wing, and should be fought against with extreme scrutiny.
Calling for death to nations (and their civilians) is a call for genocide. I hope non-extremists can see that.
big fucking emphasis on the parenthesis lmao, because nobody is doing that here. Calling for death to nations is not literal. Death to Israel does not literally mean evaporate each and every Israeli. It means dissolve the state of Israel. The people, imo, can stay. Whether hardline zionists can live without dying of bitterness in a free Palestine is not our problem, it would be their choice.
And, you have not responded to any comments showing zionism is inherently evil, but have made snarky weak edits. Israel has no right to exist, if you don’t agree, fine, but don’t lie through your teeth and say you are anti-zionist or a leftist, because you are objectively not.
Also, “extremist” is just a term centrists/centre liberals use to never want to change anything. No shit most leftists are “extremists”, what, you want to vote our way into socialism? lol
Notice how the criticisms are based on a fundamental lie: that feddit.org is a zionist instance.
Well, I think this is where the “Nazi Bar” metaphor comes into play. I think its defensible for db0 to clearly say, and they had a debate, provided evidence, etc…, that feddit.org clearly has a Zionist problem. We could argue with their process, evidence etc… but we can’t disagree that they did have a process, provided evidence, etc…
Calling for death to nations (and their civilians) is a call for genocide. I hope non-extremists can see that.
I mean isn’t that the point? Feddit is turning a blind eye to this when it comes from a specific, narrow ideological group. The argument being made is that Feddit is either defending or turning a blind eye to one specific group of people who are ideological advocates for genocide because they do it on behalf of Israel.
And to be clear and I’ve said this elsewhere. I don’t think you leave a Nazi (in this metaphor, Zionists) bar to the Nazis. If you find out that a group of Nazi’s walked into the bar you are in, you collect your group of friends at your table, and you walk over and start a fight. Don’t give them an inch.
I think the argument here is that if you don’t want to be known as a instance supporting genocide and fascism, you have some work to do.
Notice how the criticisms are based on a fundamental lie: that feddit.org is a zionist instance. Without that lie all of the agitators “arguments” crumble to the sad leftist-dividing dust that they are.
“They’re not zionist, they just defend Israel’s right to exist.”
They are zionists and so are you. You’re also a dishonest coward who replies to people through edits and hopes they don’t notice. Death to “Israel” and death to the Federal Republic of Germany.
Edit:
Calling for death to nations (and their civilians) is a call for genocide. I hope non-extremists can see that.
Also, as a tip: don’t answer the trolls and agitators. Leave them hanging, screaming into the wind.
You are literally answering me, lmao. Well, not really, you’re actually replying to things I didn’t say.
You’re not a leftist.
This will probably be unpopular but the leftist - liberal infighting is my least favorite part of the fediverse and why I usually end up having to give people a warning before telling them to get on the fediverse.
This drama is kind of the epitome of that
Agreed. A bunch of general purpose instances with slight variations on ideology that are pretty much identical.
yeah it sucks. it sucks balls.
i have to deal with it IRL. It lead to me quitting some things I used to love doing because I was so sick of psychos telling me if I am not a extremist leftist who is angry and outraged 24/7 I must be a fascist/zionist/pro-genocide/anti trans/bigot/blah blah blah.
you sound charming, I hope you stay away from those things for everyone else’s sake
I can’t think of any “leftist organisations” that support Zionism ? Maybe you’re confusing fascist with leftist ?
I mean “leftist organization” is a weird term and I would more speak of currents. And there is definitely the Antideutsche or Anti-Germans.
The German left, at least the loud one, is publically dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.
My favorite part is pointing out that most israelis are not white westerners, but from other middle eastern countries who were fleeing persecution in those countries and are more arab than western in terms of ethnicity and history.
But that doesn’t fit the nice narrative that all Israelis are white colonlizer/invaders from europe or something. Literally never had it acknowledged once, just denied and told that it is zionist propaganda.
No. The majority of Israelis are Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. They are European settler-colonists on occupied land.
Saying Hamas is antisemitic is sure fire sign of being a Zionist.
Palestinians are a semitic people.
If you want to saw that Hamas hates Jews, well, when your entire life has been being bombed by planes with stars of David on them, while jackbooted thugs with stars of David on their shoulder kick in your door to kidnap your family members in the night, and settlers with star of David necklaces show up and claim your home and land by divine right, I can start to see where you develop feelings toward the people who carry the same sign.
Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim as they are so fucking desperate to do.
Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim
You probably already know this, but Israel wants the world to be a more dangerous place for Jews to justify Israel’s illegitimate existence and aggression. That’s why they conducted terrorist attacks against Ethiopian Jews, to convince them that they needed to move to Israel as it’s the only safe place for them… where they’re then met by deep-rooted racism.
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notice how you worry about how palestinians defending themselves, but not about the millions of them killed and starved.
Spoken like someone that condemned the ANC as terrorists in the 80’s.
“Sure, apartheid is wrong, but the people suffering it and fighting it are the worst” <— you.
Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting.
Seriously, imagine typing “there is often only ‘anti genocide and pro genocide’ in online discussions” and thinking “yes, I will post this and look like a very good and moral person”. Yes, if you’re not against genocide you’re for genocide. Yes, if you think supporting the resistance to genocide is antisemitic, you are a genocidal zionist. This type of “nuanced” “anti-zionism” (liberal zionism) is also widespread on feddit.org.
By fucking german law at that. And they enforce it too. Never again, as defined by nihlists with no soul serving the plutocracy while the far right takes their country from them and fixes elections while they are busy surrendering their people to tech.
One of them was extremely offended in another thread when I replied to them with “I was just following orders”.
What I think they meant was that people here only think about the genocide and thus declare the perpetrators evil (which they are) and the victims the good guys (hamas are not).
One side’s atrocities don’t justify the other side’s. Excusing your own group’s actions because they’re the good guys is far right thinking.
In reality there’s more factors to this than just the genocide, and both hamas and israel are the bad guys in their own way. One is just worse than the other, but that doesn’t make the other good.
In this particular conflict, Hamas very much are the good guys (if we have to think in such childish terms) in the same way that the allies were the good guys in World War 2 despite the fact they were mostly genocidal empires themselves. Hell, Hamas are far less evil than almost every western government, especially the German one, because they aren’t actively supporting mass genocide.
You condemn all groups actually fighting against Isreals genocide. That is just supporting the Genocide with extra steps
declare the perpetrators evil (which they are)
Correct.
and the victims the good guys (hamas are not)
You’re wrong, Hamas are in fact “the good guys” in this conflict. The resistance to the genocidal settler state are good even if they don’t measure up to whatever arbitrary standard of perfection you have in mind.
One side’s atrocities don’t justify the other side’s. Excusing your own group’s actions because they’re the good guys is far right thinking.
Bullshit framing designed to try to equate between the invading settler state (with overwhelming firepower) and the (often barely adult) native resistance just trying to survive and protect their homes.
In reality there’s more factors to this than just the genocide, and both hamas and israel are the bad guys in their own way. One is just worse than the other, but that doesn’t make the other good.
“Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting.”
You’re wrong, Hamas are in fact “the good guys” in this conflict.
Let’s agree to disagree there then. I wasn’t planning to convince you after all.
ask an anti german what they think of muslims in the middle east :) it’ll be the most misanthropic thing you heard all day. anti germans are disgusting zionists and need to be shunned from leftist places. they are pro-genocide and there is no nuance to it. they are not part of the left, just delusional cosplayers
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.
“Opposing Hamas makes you a Zionist”, can you confirm that statement?
You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?
Me
[…] people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy […]
You
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.
Again you
You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?
Me
???people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism
This is a Zionist defense of Israel by conflating antisemitism with anti-Zionism.
You believe it is evil to resist Isreals imperialism. That’s Zionism
Yes, opposing the main resistance to zionism makes you a zionist. Glad we all understand each other.
Edit: not that you’ll see this, I can see piefed.social dropping my replies to you because you have me (or maybe my instance) blocked.
The German left, at least the loud one, is public ally dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.
This is all nonsense and you are indeed a zionist. Thank you for making it clear to everyone.
That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions.
Thank you again for clarifying which side you are on.
“Is genocide bad? Who can say, it’s just so complex!”
Don’t be discouraged. Personally I don’t have the energy any more to endure the abuse of the mob (these “leftist” ignoramuses whose obsession with “Zionism” leads them to support literal fascism) but it’s important that somebody makes the points you’re making.
You should have been bullied more in school.
Before Lemmy, I didn’t know it was possible to go so left that you hated liberals.
Corporate media didn’t want you to be exposed to any ideas outside of the Overton window.
Sometimes the further left extremes I’ve heard hear are indistinguishable from conservative Q-Anon. I legitimately need to check users post histories to understand which extreme they are on
They are very clearly distinguishable, just not to you yet. Until recently, you’d only ever heard disagreements coming from your right, so you confuse disagreements coming from your left with them.
- ‘Horseshoe theory’ is nonsense – the far right and far left have little in common
- Are the far-left and far-right merging together? That’s what the ‘horseshoe theory’ of politics says, but it’s wrong
Liberalism in fact has more in common with fascism than socialism: they’re both capitalist ideologies. Previously.I legitimately need to check users post histories to understand which extreme they are on
If you can’t tell the difference between “media companies serve the interests of their owners and managers” and Q-Anon, that might indicate a problem with you rather than with others.
It’s very easy to distinguish if you actually act in good faith, which you clearly don’t
Examples?
The comment I replied to vs. this from QAnon page on Wikipedia.
The cabal is thought to cover up its existence by controlling politicians, mainstream media, and Hollywood.
Only difference is that your side is “right”
You are reducing both sides to an extreme and extracting a single quote from both of them - “corporate media is lying to you to protect politicians preying on children” . You understand that one side is right and the other isn’t - where do you think the difference appears? Certainly not at the extreme surface level of a single quote you are picking.
All sides in WW2 were killing people, I literally can’t tell the difference!
The statement is that far left makes similarly culty statements like “X entity is hiding evidence that supports our views from the general public”. It’s the “everyone except us lies” part of the culty belief. My statement is that both far left and far right have fringe beliefs that are culty or close to it.
Billionaires/ruling classes owning the media for manufacturing consent is not a new idea, and even then, leftists/QAnon people have very different views on it anyway. Leftists don’t believe there is some secret cabal, the ruling class is very blatant. Right wingers believe in some deep state or the rothschilds, who are a jewish family, “control the narrative”, they don’t care about class struggle. This comparison makes very little sense.
Also-
QAnon centers on fabricated claims made by an anonymous individual or individuals known as “Q”. Those claims have been relayed and developed by online communities and influencers. Their core belief is that a cabal of Satanic,[3][4][5] cannibalistic child molesters in league with the deep state is operating a global child sex trafficking ring and that Donald Trump is secretly leading the fight against them.[9] QAnon has direct roots in Pizzagate, another conspiracy theory that appeared on the Internet one year earlier, but also incorporates elements of many different conspiracy theories and unifies them into a larger interconnected theory
I’m not seeing the relations to “left extremes” here at all. The horseshoe theory is a ridiculous, centrist concept. @davel@lemmy.ml 's comment has some good links.
I don’t believe the horseshoe theory. Far left and far right have a number of stark differences such as religion, economic policy, etc. I just believe that both sides are fringe cult-like environments, particularly when it comes to isolating yourselves and ideology control. Occasionally, I see other similarities.
Imo, far left isn’t clearly closer to the far right in most beliefs, except cult-like behavior
Only difference is that your side is “right”
lmao, you’re the perfect centrist. By your standard, “the Holocaust happened” and “white genocide in South Africa happened” are both equally valid statements. Do you see how ridiculous it is to just group statements by superficial similarity and treat them as equivalent regardless of the substance of the claims or the evidence?
I never said those were equal statements
in a just, abolitionists society that doesn’t believe in the carceral system or death penalty so called “shunning” is a powerful thing. someone does something cruel that the community finds irredeemable? state the facts of what they did as publicly as possible so everyone knows and then shun them. let them either change their ways out of survival or parish while clinging to their bigotry and hatred. it’s the only solution that i’ve found.
Why would you argue for individualist self-reform instead of collective re-education of crime?
Well what you’re bringing up now is a very nuanced discussion. nuanced and possibly even subjective.
but my take, reeducation as a concept surely doesn’t remind me of anything ethical in real world history. it also still reminds me of a carceral system, just a differently short-sighted one. i can’t imagine a crime befitting of reeducation either, i mean let’s talk about bigotry for instance. how far do you go trying to avoid shunning a bigot before you’re just doing them the favour of giving them people to abuse? how would you teach a bigot out of bigotry, in this scenario they’re already living in a world without the systems that cultivate an environment of bigotry yet they persist. they’re beyond help as far as i’m concerned. also, some crime happens out of necessity because of being left behind by capitalism.
i at least don’t think crimes against humanity are worthy of mercy of any sort.
“I was just obeying the German laws” was not a credible defense in the Nürnberg trials, why are you repeating the same logic as the Nazis?
You know that “Anschuldigungen” aka. allegations can turn out to be true, right?? 🤯🤯
Also they seem like good little Germans for enthusiastically following orders pre-emptively and overinterpreting them 🫡🫡🫡
ok.
Dang and I just made this account too. Time to find a new instance… Any recommendations? How is lemmy.today?
This whole process has looked sus to me. And on top of that, I don’t think voting by up/downvoting the post itself is a good way to call votes — it means a minority can pass a rule without it being even seen by the majority (not sure that matters in this case). Voting should be done in a top-level comment.
The vote was literally pinned instance-wide for a week and it passed with an overwhelming absolute majority, with a majority of comments (of various active and established users) calling for a defed instead of just community bans
- it means a minority can pass a rule without it being even seen by the majority
Why do you think that?
Did you not read the rules for joining DB0 before you joined. They clearly state a full anti-zionist stance right there.
Any recommendations?
Seeing your political inclinations you may wanna check out nazis.love, zionism.supporters, and netanyahu.net
You can come to feddit.org, we have mostly normal people instead of armchair internet warriors lol
True! discuss.tchncs.de is also pretty nice. We have a few more communities that feddit has defederated (for good reason, though, not everyone wants pr0n in their main feed :D).
I don’t see a reason why you should. It’s not like the vote didn’t happen for good reason. There’s no good reason to speak to genocide apologists.
Its this kind of bad-faith accusative argument that I hate most, from wherever it comes.
I don’t see how it’s bad faith to call an instance that has taken a stance in favor of a genocide "genocide apologist. They are doing genocide apologia. If you aren’t a genocide apologist, you should leave the genocide apologist instance, same as leaving the nazi bar if you aren’t a nazi.
Uh oh, if .ml is defending them db0 really is a lost cause.
Edit: Holy tankie brigade, Batman! They’ve really crawled out of the woodwork for this one!
Congratulations, you just earned yourself the “🤡” user tag!
“If ml says genocide is bad, then I support genocide!”
Literally reactionary.
I am not an ml user and I still defend db0. Now what?
.world user here, I am defending them. Are they a lost cause because they don’t support mass murder or are they are lost cause because they support international justice?
I’m actually a Hexbear user. This is my alt.
People are going to assume this is a joke, lmao.
Yeah to clarify, I wasn’t joking. Hexbear is my main instance.
Down With Zionism and Friends of Zionism 
This user is suspected to have relations to Russo-Chinese state media and Marxist sympathies, please report any suspicious behavior to https://cia.gov/
You should read up on the position of germany before making dumb posts like this https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/aussenpolitik/regionaleschwerpunkte/nahermittlererosten/middleeastconflict-228366
Oh nice meeting a Zionist apologst who I had already tagged “Evroshitlib 🤡”, posting apologia for a settler-colonialist project. The Zionist entity has no right to exist. Period.
Wow, Germany sent A STRONGLY WORDED LETTER?? Damn, how did the genocide not stop immediately? Oh wait, they still maintain full diplomatic and economic relations with the genocidal Zionist entity, and have done no effort to ban Zionist and far-right media after proving that under German law there are provisions to ban media (as was done with Russian media).
Thry send weapons to israel to maintain the occupation and continue the genocide
And i bet you believe the Ku Klux Klan isnt a racist organization because their leaders say so too?
Unlike you i actually bother to read and investigate, here is an article about how your favorite country has participated in Palestinian genocide since its “redemption” https://www.tni.org/en/article/germanys-support-for-the-israeli-occupation-and-genocide
Down With Zionism and Friends of Zionism
This user is suspected to have relations to Russo-Chinese state media and Marxist sympathies, please report any suspicious behavior to https://cia.gov/
Don’t bother engaging with the troll, they are clearly not arguing in good faith.
Trolling = Being Against Genocide
World’s Smarter Saurkraut everyone
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